Author Topic: Most rugged action  (Read 5002 times)

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2009, 09:05:59 AM »
unless its a rack queen looks mean very little in the field .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2009, 12:21:37 PM »
The Savage has always been an economy department store rifle, and it always will be.  It's very cheaply made, and not very accurate.  The word junk comes to mind.

The Savage 110E Dad gave me had over 2,000 rounds through it when I got it.  It would put 5 rounds on paper at 100 yards that you could cover with a dime, in spite of having a sporter-weight barrel and being "cheaply made, and not very accurate".

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Quote
The Remington 700 is the most accurate production rifle you can buy.

As usual, pure BS.  They look nice but time after time I've seen other factory rifles shoot better.  That's not to say they don't shoot well as a rule, but  I own three .30-06s and the Ruger M77 and Savage 111 both shoot better than my Remington M700.  The Ruger and the Savage also shoot better than the Remington M700 SPS I sighted in for a friend of mine.  Small samples, to be sure, but they point out that fact that these days of cmputerized manufacturing the difference is often the individual rifles rather than the brand.  I've even seen a $250 Stevens (Savage) outshoot a Remington M700.
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Offline Skunk

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2009, 12:30:06 PM »
I've even seen a $250 Stevens (Savage) outshoot a Remington M700.

Yep, that sure doesn't surprise me any. It's almost uncanny how well some of those stock, right out of the box, $300 Stevens rifles will shoot.
Mike

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Offline mrbigtexan

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2009, 04:05:25 PM »
Mauser 98 or just about any other milsurp bolt action.
+1

Offline jro45

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2009, 03:19:14 AM »
The 700 action or the cz action are both strong actions.

Offline skb2706

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2009, 06:28:38 AM »
Since every bolt rifle thats currently sold in the US functions nearly the same, maintaining them is very similar as well. Doesn't matter whether its a $150 pawnshop Savage or a $3000 HS Precision.
I don't know where or how you use your rifle but I tell people who shoot with me out on the prairie not to use their rifles for shovels and don't oil them til they are finished using them at the end of the day. Wipe them down before taking them a field.

The original post titled 'most rugged'.

The problem is grit in the action.

The discussion turns to strongest action.

All modern bolt action rifles have strong actions and proving one stronger than the other would take years.

Getting dirt in them is the same no matter which one is "stronger".

Offline iiranger

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Convoluted discussion??? Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2009, 07:48:58 AM »
O.K. #1). The actions that were designed for use in rough conditions are military. Mauser, 93? 96? 98? etc. Japanese copies. Springfield, another copy. p14/m17 Enfields, more copies. SMLE not copy... Nagant, yes. Mannlicher. The principle is "if there is enough space for 'it' to get in, then it should also be able to fall out..." You build around one of these, or buy a commercial copy, close copy, and you should have this advantage. Well tuned they can also be accurate too. Mr. Ackley seemed to think the strongest, not your exact question, of the WW II bring backs was the 6.5 Japanese... I believe he blew a barrel off the action with heavy overload and no damage to the action...

No doubt, with more current steel, the commercial actions are as strong or maybe stronger, but made for beauty, looks, sales appeal... things of no consequence to the buyers of military rifles, the military. As said, the include things that make "more accurate" the modified military.

The other suggestion that you go with "dry lube" like graphite or one of the modern plastic types... might be of great help.

Otherwise you make a deliberate decision to protect the action. Plastic bag. You can shoot thru the end.

You don't indicate your usual target. 6.5 Swede with iron sights is so close to a .270 WCF that it is not worth discussing. .30/'06 can be had in about anything. Etc. Luck.

Offline Hank08

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2009, 09:43:46 AM »
In the last several yrs. I seen a few blown up rifles.  They can all be blown up, none are blow up proof.  There were two Remington 700s in 7 mag that were loaded with H110 (thought it was H870)  heads of both bolts were destroyed, one receiver ring was cracked the other not cracked and was restored with a new stock, bolt and barrel.  Another 700 in 25/06 was overloaded and bulged the barrel, destroyed the bolt head, stock was destroyed and owner broke off the bolt handle . A new bolt, new barrel and a new stock and this rifle is back in business.  A Weatherby mark 5 in .270 WM was fired with a 7mm WM, it was sent to Weatherby where they said it was toast and wouldn't send it back to the owner until he signed a release saying he would never try to resurrect it.  Later he put a Remington 700 barrel in 7mag
on it and it's back in action.  Recently a Parker Hale M98 22-250 was fired with a 7.62x39 in the chamber
This blew the stock into numerous pieces, bulged the magazine and the trigger guard, the bolt shroud, extractor and bolt release had to be replaced but the barrel or bolt wasn't damaged, with those parts replaced it still shoots under an inch.  No one was hurt in any of these cases.  All modern bolt guns are stronger than any resonable load but all can be blown up if you don't pay attention.
H08

Offline huntswithdogs

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2009, 05:35:45 AM »
Summit,

I think you'll learn not to oil or grease your action. No matter the action, dirt, sand and general trash blown around by the wind is gonna get in there. Oils only makes it adhere better, thus causing lockups or rough opening and closing. As stated in the last post...all actions will come undone if abused. Some just hold together longer. Personally, I like a Mauser-styled action, but that does not mean that the others are any better or worse. Get your action dried out, leave off putting any kind of petroleum back in there and shoot something!

HWD

Offline Hank08

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2009, 08:51:28 AM »
Summit, These folks have got it right, before the hunt clean your action inside and out with carburator cleaner, leave it completely dry.  Sand won't stick to a dry surface.  Clean the inside of your bolt also, oil in there will freeze and keep your firing pin from hitting the primer.  I do this and I've been hunting Southern Utah for the last 40 yrs. and never had any problem.
You could also tie a kerchief around the action if sand was really blowing.  I know that red sand around St. George gets in everything.
H08

Offline jro45

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2009, 04:09:43 AM »
The bolt action that I like best is the 700 and the CZ. I have both and both have never failed me.

Offline Hank08

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2009, 06:54:05 AM »
To anyone who THINKS the Rem. 700 is the most accurate, your HALF right.  The generally recognized rule of thumb for accuracy in new rifles is that REMINGTON & SAVAGE are the 2 most accurate, right out of the box, rifles on the market.  In the last few yrs. Savage has been gaining while Remington has been sitting on it's laurels.  I just read a report of a new Rem.
700 Varmint-tactical-heavy barreled-camoed-very expensive rifle and even with the writers
help the best they could do was 2 /12 to 3" @ 100.  Most, if not all, Sav. 200s with beat that.
Not running Rem. down, I have several Rems. and Sav.  All mine shoot great.
H08

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2009, 09:11:19 AM »
Lets face it most any brands top of the line is that good , most alot better . Even the cheap models have some come off the line with great accy. Its just odds that every thing comes togather right every so often
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline skb2706

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2009, 10:33:10 AM »
To anyone who THINKS the Rem. 700 is the most accurate, your HALF right.  The generally recognized rule of thumb for accuracy in new rifles is that REMINGTON & SAVAGE are the 2 most accurate, right out of the box, rifles on the market.  In the last few yrs. Savage has been gaining while Remington has been sitting on it's laurels.  I just read a report of a new Rem.
700 Varmint-tactical-heavy barreled-camoed-very expensive rifle and even with the writers
help the best they could do was 2 /12 to 3" @ 100.  Most, if not all, Sav. 200s with beat that.
Not running Rem. down, I have several Rems. and Sav.  All mine shoot great.
H08

Since when does the fact that a particular gunwriter can't shoot determine a rifles potential. Besides there are many factors that determine accuracy not the least of which is ammo, optics etc. How you can make a accuracy statement like that is beyond me.

Offline JPShelton

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2009, 05:28:47 PM »
The Savage has always been an economy department store rifle, and it always will be.  It's very cheaply made, and not very accurate.  The word junk comes to mind.

The Remington 700 is the most accurate production rifle you can buy.


In my view, the M-700 is definitely an "economy department store rifle."  And it always will be.

But then, I got by spoiled a bit by my first firearm purchase when, at the age of 18, I bought a 1927 Griffin and Howe Springfield off of the widow of my pedatric dentist.  That rifle was funtional art and no reasonably intellegent person could proffer an argument claiming that it was not a finely crafted piece of equipment.  I relied upon it as my main hunting rifle for 15 seasons and I would still be relying upon it now if the thing would have been fireproof in addition to being a piece of functional art.

To attemtp to constantly elevate a cheaply made M-700 into some paragon of fine gunmaking virtue is to engage in intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.  To do so is akin to comparing a pre-schooler's first abstract attempts at fingerpainting with C.M. Russell's "Crippled But Still Coming" and drawing the false conclusion that they are both equal in terms of technical and artistic merit.  They aren't, but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate the pre-schooler's effort on some level, too.

At my local Tahlequah Wal Mart, there are several M-700 variants to choose from.  There is no equal to a Griffin and Howe Springfield to be found there.  There is no Dakota.  There is no Rigby.  No Browning Safari built on the FN Mauser action.  The M-700s share the same space with other stellar exhibits of fine gunmaking like the M-500 Mossberg shotgun and their equally hideous bolt action rifle.

Case closed.....  At least as far as "economy department store rifles" is concerned.

But since Swampman brought the subject up, I'd rather have a real, honest-to-God "economy department store rifle" in the form of an old J.C. Higgins on the Husqvarna commercial Mauser action for big game hunting than any M-700 ever made.  It isn't the "economy department store rifle" part that turns me off as much as the "M-700 Remington" part does.

As I see it, where being classed as "economy department store rifles" is concerned, the M-700 and Savage 110 are simialr peas in the same pod. 

Remington couldn't produce the M-720 / M-721 cheap enough to remain competitive.  So they cheapened it further and the highly regarded M-700 was the result.  Those attributes that made the M-700 cheap to produce also made it consistantly accurate.  There is no denying that.

The same thing goes for the Savage 110.  When it was new to the market, much of the gun press echoed the comments of the American Rifleman, which found the then-new Savage 110 to be an accurate shooter, and one not particularly fussy about the ammo it was fed.  This reputation for accuracy with respect to the 110 isn't anything new.

Like the M-700, the M-110 is essentially one tube (bolt body) riding inside another (receiver).  This makes for a concentric action that can be cheaply made from bar stock by lathe turning operations.  The concentric bit is part of why both of these actions are the basis for accurate rifles.

The M-110 has its receiver cut-outs for the ejection port far enough above the centerline to insure that stiffness isn't unduly compromised.  This adds to the accuracy potential even further.

Of the two actions, I personlly think that Nicholas Brewer's design is the most innovative and in many ways, I believe that it was way ahead of its time.  For almost fifty years, Savage has been about the only major maker to use the barrel lock nut method of mating the barrel to the reciever of a high-power sporting rifle.  The way the barrel is attached to the Savage makes accurate headspace easy to achieve and easy to achieve from one rifle to the next.  In theory, every Savage 110 ever made ought to be spot-on in terms of headspace diminson.  The floating bolt head was another stroke of genius, allowing fuller engagement of critical locking surfaces without the need of laborious hand fitting and lapping of parts.  In the 110, you've got a stiff, concentric action with accurate headspace and even locking lug engagement virtually assured by design.  In simple terms, you've got some major pieces of the bolt action rifle accuracy puzzle already put together.

Add in fast lock time that some claim to be faster than even an M-700, and you've got yet another contributor to precision.

The Savage 110 is accurate by design.  To infer that it isn't is nothing more than a display of ignorance.

To infer that it is made out of inferior material is also ignorant.  The bar stock that Savage utilizes is a proprietary steel that happens to be some of the toughest stuff in gunmaking.  That is a fact.

The 110, like the M-700, is an inherintly accurate design.  The M-700 design, however, requires more precise hand work in order to achieve the best end result.  That is okay provided that the corporate culture is one of "Let's make the best M-700s that we can" rather than "Lets see how cheap we can make M-700s today."  This is where the true beauty of the M-110 is found.  It simply doesn't take as much careful hand fitting of parts to end up with an acceptable end result that most will find to provide acceptable performance, durability, and service life.

The level of safety built into the 110 is also impressive to me, particularly in the area of venting gasses away from the shooter in the event of a pierced primer or ruptured cartridge case.  Few other bolt action rifles can match the 110 for the level of engineering effort that went into errant gas management.  Does a Remington have "false lugs" blocking the lug raceways?  Does the M-700 have a fastener going through the bolt body which helps divert any gas traveling down the firing pin hole?

Speaking of safety, does the M-700 come with a three position safety catch which locks the bolt handle on full safe along with a middle position that blocks the trigger but allows bolt manipulation?

Back when the world was young with the dew still upon it, I might have agreed that the Remington M-700 was more finely finished than the M-110.  That was then.  This is now.  Remington doesn't make a standard production rifle as nicely polished and blued as the 14 Classic. Perosnally, where fit and finish is concerned, I think Savage has come along so far that they pretty much went from hind-tit sucker to leader of the class in this area.

THe original trigger component geometry of the 110 meant that you really couldn't ever make the standard trigger match that of a Remington M-700 for safe, light pull, or crisp, creep-free pull.  That was then.  This is post Accu-Trigger now.

While I don't think that an M-700 could be confused with art, and while I have no desire to go down the M-700 road again, I don't think they're "junk," either.

I do think that as the sporting rifle market stands today, the Savage Model 14/114 Classic represents the best combination of performance, price, and build quality of any domestic bolt action sporting rifle in current production.

I'm deligted that Savage is finally offering aesthetics that match the performance the 110 series has always had.  I am happy that they're finally making a sporting rifle that won't look too out of place sharing a gun cabinet with my Ugartechea side by side, my Auto 5 Light Twelve, or the wife's Merkel 1620.

I'll take mine in .250 Savage, please.

I'll obviously not have to worry about Swampman beating me to it when it shows up at my dealer.

-JP

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2009, 05:54:52 PM »
 :'(  As a savage fan, that was simply beautiful and almost brought a tear to my eye.  As much as I love Savage rifles there's still a couple Remington's out there I wouldn't mind buying.  They are both great.

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2009, 02:43:23 AM »
I took part in a discussion of a subject, in a thread a while back much like this one.
There are those on here that no matter what is said or proven will never give in or admit to the facts, one way or the other.

Fact-All the companies can and have made very strong, accurate, out of the box bolt guns.
They have all made some dogs also.

As for accuracy I have seen so pretty nice shooting SAVAGES, especially the 110 model in 243 that were hard to beat, taken right out of the box.

As for strength it would be hard to prove without trying to blow up a lot of actions.

The only one I can recall that was really put to the test was an old Rem model 30 (P14-P17 style) action chambered in 30-06.
One of the gun magazines tried to blow it but failed.
The best they could do was bust the stock, split the barrel and bend the extractor.
This was only accomplished after firing 2 double proof loads with no damage, 3 triple proof loads which broke the stock and bulged the barrel along with the bolt handle getting tight.
They fired 2 more triple proof loads which bent the extractor, split the barrel, broke the safety, and locked the bolt to the point they had to use a hammer to get it open, but once open the action still would operate and fire a factory round.
They ended the test without destroying the action.
I don't know it this much abuse has ever been put to test on any other type or brand of action, but to me it speaks volumes on the durability of the old P14-P17 actions!


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Offline Skunk

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2009, 04:31:05 AM »
Darn it JPShelton, that was indeed one fine post.

:'(  As a savage fan, that was simply beautiful and almost brought a tear to my eye.

LOL Teddy, I think I felt a couple tears welling up myself.
Mike

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Offline Barstooler

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2009, 08:27:12 PM »
JP....wow.   Which is also why three of my most prized rifles are custom made 1903 Springfields (6.5-06,  338-06, and 35 Whelen).  My next two favorites are a M 70 in 270 Win made in 1949, and a .256 Newton.....now that guy could build a nice rifle!!!

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Offline rickt300

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2009, 04:34:21 AM »
I second finding a good sporterized Mauser or Springfield.  I build mine or did for years as a hobby and never had any kind of stoppage other than a trigger return spring broke.  My main rifle is a Springfield 03A3 and it has never caused me any grief.  I have one Remington 700, a 1973 model BDL in 7MM Remington magnum, this rifle has never failed me either.  As to the action being dry I usually wipe the action and bolt down with Armorall Protectant, let it dry and then put a small amount of rig or other hard grease on the backs of the locking lugs.  The Amorall dries leaving a slick surface that nothing sticks to and your locking lugs are generally inside the reciever out of range of dust.  I once owned a Savage 110 package gun that I used as a loaner for years and it never gave any problems until the guy I was always loaning it to bought it.  He put a new Nikon scope on it and is still using it.
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Offline Harry Snippe

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2009, 05:14:58 AM »
I just read the intire posting and had to laugh . Every one some time has bought something new that was not just perfect . It is too with Rifles . I have had  some right out of the box , that were not good rifles that the  factory would not service , then others, would go beyond to make you happy.
So too with cars . In all every one trys to make a buck by cutting corners .
Having bought a "Tuesday" made rifle might be one  beter than "Mondays " One twenty years ago - still perfect today.

On the net we hear the problems people experiance , but before problems did exist , but not every one heard about it . ( think the heat was on with Marlins own forum , and that put an end to it ).

You can get a good rifle from any one who makes some, then there are also a few that have problems . Is this not here that we learn the good and the bad .It is all part of the american way.
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Offline john keyes

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2009, 08:46:32 AM »
Savage has been about the only major maker to use the barrel lock nut method of mating the barrel to the reciever of a high-power sporting rifle.  The way the barrel is attached to the Savage makes accurate headspace easy to achieve and easy to achieve from one rifle to the next.  In theory, every Savage 110 ever made ought to be spot-on in terms of headspace diminson.  The floating bolt head was another stroke of genius, allowing fuller engagement of critical locking surfaces without the need of laborious hand fitting and lapping of parts.  In the 110, you've got a stiff, concentric action with accurate headspace and even locking lug engagement virtually assured by design.  In simple terms, you've got some major pieces of the bolt action rifle accuracy puzzle already put together.



I had always wondered what that cone shaped nut was when looking at Savage rifles that had it.  thanks for explaining it
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Offline Savage_99

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2009, 04:25:39 PM »
summit,

I rate the Remington 700's and the older 721/2 rifles as the least reliable and desirable.   Just because our servicemen got stuck with them does not make them strong.

The Rem. action has a dinky spring for an extractor.  The extractor on a CRF M70 or any Mauser is far larger and contacts more of the rim of the case.

The bolt handles on Remingtons break off.  They are only tack brazed on with no interlock.

Because the braze was no good on this bolt at the handle also throws suspicion on where the locking lug section is also brazed onto the bolt body.  This might break also!


"The dealer I bought the rifle from, has another identical one in stock, but (as expected) won't swap with me. Remington says repairs this time of year are running 6-10 weeks."

Offline Swampman

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2009, 04:39:48 PM »
The Remington 700 will hold 100,000 psi.  It's hell for strong.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2009, 05:10:05 PM »
It has been said the Japanese Arisaka action is the srtongest action made. THere are stories of 7.7 Jap being somehow forced into a 6.5 and fired. THe barrel was destroyed but the action was not damaged. I read this in some gun rag years ago.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2009, 03:11:12 AM »
The Remington 700 will hold 100,000 psi.  It's hell for strong.

Perhaps, when it comes to the bursting strength of the action, but when the bolt handle breaks off or the extractor breaks they are still just a club.

I like my Remington M700 but I will never trust it like I would my Ruger MKII's (Mauser style extractor, fixed-blade ejector, one-piece bolt).
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2009, 07:46:44 AM »
The Ruger is just so cheaply made.  I can't get excited about a cast metal receiver.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2009, 08:34:41 AM »
You can cut Ruger down if you ignore the fact that Bill Ruger up dated the fire arms industry . Some cling to out dated ways . I have never over loaded his rifles but have his revolvers and never hurt one , can't say the same about S&W or Colt.
Remington 600 actions are strong as i have over loaded them to the point it took a block of wood hitting the bolt to open it . So many guns can take a beating , many can shoot great we all know that.
The one other thing Ruger still makes its guns and parts in the USA , Still goes head to head with all competition onshore and over seas . Big Green is importing now can beat um so join um i guess . Winchester not USA in ownership  anymore .
Can't really see a problem with Ruger , Mauser action , Mod 70 safety , scope bases to kill for , Nice wood with a nice finish ( no gloss or white spacers )and the new trigger is good .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline MGMorden

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2009, 08:56:19 AM »
The Ruger is just so cheaply made.  I can't get excited about a cast metal receiver.

I'll admit that the cast metal receiver is a (small) negative, but the Ruger has a lot of postives compared to a Remington too.  As Coyote mentioned, the one piece bolt, controlled round feed, integral scope mounts, etc, are things that are also more expensive to make, and are things that Remington is in turn going cheap on.

In the end it's just about what people are willing to compromise on.  For my own purposes, I've shot several Remingtons, Rugers, and tons of other stuff.  The Remingtons shot ok.  With the exception of the 710 I had no issues with their quality.  Still, they was nothing in their quality nor performance that particularly stood out.  Just another decent rifle like many others IMHO.  The Savages are more accurate, the Mossberg's are cheaper, the Rugers have more high end features and are available in a wider selection of cartridges, the Brownings have better fit/finish, and the Mausers have more aftermarket customization options.  In the end Remington seems like a decent compromise of all of the above, but to call it definitively superior in every way is just a bit naive IMHO.

I will admit though that somewhere along the line I WOULD like to get a Remington 788.  My uncle shoots one and the rear locking lugs always intrigued me.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Most rugged action
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2009, 09:22:26 AM »
Got to ask , why do you feel the Ruger reciver is not as good ?
They take molted metal and inject into a mold under pressure . They know the weight of the metal , the mass it occupies at any given temp or pressure and the vol. of the mold . So they know without any doubt that a reciver is 100% metal no holidays or flaws in it . A forged metal bar can have an undetectable holiday or flaw in it . To be honest in todays world both are to a point of perfection and without doubt work well. The Ruger just cost less and gives more control in making the part .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !