Author Topic: Mountain Lions in South west Pa (Read 7243 times)

Bingo · « **on:** February 11, 2009, 11:56:59 AM »

I once posted that a farmer near Sarver shot a mountain lion and was basically called a liar. Today a mountain lion was spotted, photographed and was reported on KDKA news. This was just a mile from the farm I mentioned. The Game commission is investigating.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2009, 01:30:47 PM »

I believe it was me that called the "shot the mt. lion" story a tall tail. I'm still standing by that position. I'm quite certain if anyone, including me, shot a Mt. lion in Pa., they would report it to someone. If not directly to the PGC, then to the news media....who would be all over that one with photos and grand scale media coverage.

So, again, your buddies story is IMHO just that. A story.

These news coverage stories have some substance to them. http://kdka.com/pets/Buffalo.township.mountain.2.931867.html The folks who appear on the TV footage are quite certian what they have seen, and appear credible, along with the photo of what appears to be a rather large house cat.

Dave

Ron T. · « **Reply #2 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:41:36 PM »

There's no reason why there would NOT be mountain lions in Pennsylvania. The favorite prey of mountain lions are deer... and there's plenty of deer in PA.

However, I've hunted the first week of every deer season in PA. beginning with the 1998 season... and I've never seen or HEARD a mountain lion. They "scream" at times and it sounds like a woman-in-trouble. I've heard coyotes at night every year, but never any mountain lions. We hunt in the Moshannon State Forest in north-central Pennsylvania... above I-80 near Penfield in Clearfield County (northeast of DuBois/northwest of the city of Clearfield).

The cat in the picture looks like a house cat to me. It's impossible to tell its actual size since there's nothing to compare it's size to anywhere near it.

The tail is the "key" here... it's too long for a bobcat or a lynx and too short for a mountain liion which has a relatively LONG tail compared to it's body-length.

I'm not saying there are or aren't mountain lions in Pennsylvania... but the cat in that picture surely isn't one of 'em! However, I'd NEVER call a man a "liar" in any case since saying that is a major insult even if that's what you think... plus in a State with as much varied terrain like Pennsylvania's and a plentiful food supply (lotsa deer), it's quite possible there's mountain lions there... somewhere... and just because I have never seen or heard 'em doesn't mean there aren't any mountain lions there.

I do know that in some of the "up-eastern" States (Mass., N. Hampshire, Vermont, Maine), mountain lions have been reported, not only by actually sightings of them, but by the screams heard during the night that are typical of mountain lion's "screams". Some of these "reports" have been by people who ARE "trained observers" (and NOT "B.S." artists) such as police officers, pilots and other folks trained to be especially observant. Yet, their reports of sightings are also doubted.

I wonder why it's so hard for some folks to believe there could be mountain lions in places that have the cover, the food supply and the lack of civilization that would and could easily support such large predators as bears and mountain lions?!?

Sooner or later, a hunter is going to see and shoot one... if they are actually in the Pennsylvania woods... and that will put an end to the contraversy.

Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2009, 04:05:59 AM »

Quote from: Ron T. on February 15, 2009, 10:41:36 PM

However, I'd NEVER call a man a "liar" in any case since saying that is a major insult even if that's what you think...

Ron T.

Just for the record, let me clarify a few points:

1) I don't believe that Bingo is a liar. Perhaps he is a little gullible in believing his buddies story that his buddy shot a Mt. Lion, did something with the Mt. Lion's carcass, and has never told anyone where the remains are at. Bones don't just disappear.

2) I do believe that Bingo's buddy is a liar and I have no problem telling him that to his face. He doesn't live far from me. We could meet at the local Bob Evans for breakfast. I'll buy, then I'll call him a liar.

3) I have been hunting the Western part of Pennsylvania since 1968. I know a gang of people who have hunted it longer, and less in years, but have spent more time in the woods individually than me, but collectively have spent hundreds of years in the timbers and the fields of Western Pennsylvania. They have seen everything from Bobcats to Bucks, mink to muskrat, and everything in between. But not one of them has seen a Mt. Lion. Nor have they seen any sign of Mt. Lion. And these people are hunters.....not just folk who pick up a rifle and go out for 3 days in the fall and sit on a stump. Does that mean there could not be a Mt. Lion in Pa? No. It just means if there were one....chances would be pretty darn good, it would be tracked, trapped or shot in pretty short order at this point. Or, with the proliferation of woods cameras out there, you would think we would have at least a few "smiley cats" on film.

Evidence. Give me photos, or a dead cat. But the "I know a guy" story....Yeah...It's like the guy who post his land because last year "They shot a hole in my barn" story. Man...if I had a dollar for everytime I heard the "hole-barn" story....well, I'd have at least $15 dollars or more.

Dave

Graybeard · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2009, 10:28:46 AM »

Any state that can support the population of black bears that PA does certainly can support a few lions as well. They are extremely secretive animals far more so than bears and it's not impossible could remain mostly unseen by even the best hunters who are not specifically targeting them.

Are they in PA? I have no clue but I'd not at all be surprised to learn some at least pass thru from time to time. I'd think a person shooting one might not want to publicize it too openly as in most areas where they aren't supposed to be it's not really legal to take one so the old SSS routine might be wise.

Even if none regularly live in PA they have a huge range and especially so young males who need to establish a territory for them self. That some pass thru at least from time to time seems highly likely to me even if they don't eventually establish a territory there and continue to live there.

Since you cannot KNOW for sure the truth or lack thereof in this situation let's end the name calling IMMEDIATELY regarding all involved.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2009, 08:14:40 AM »

I should apologize to Bingo for calling him gullible. And should he think I called him anything else by inference, well I would extend my apology to that as well.

And Bill is absolutely right that we cannot know for sure that a Mt. Lion has either passed thru here on occasion, or in fact lives in the area and has not yet been confirmed.

We also cannot know if Bigfoot lives here either. Perhaps they both den together.

Dave

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2009, 12:40:24 PM »

It is said they are in Va. anyone who would shoot one would remain quiet as it would be a violation of game law to shoot one . One thing if you hunt an area that has one or you think has one keep an eye out for a den . Seems they like brush piles , piles of dirt like are pushed up during logging and such . more often than not lots of bones will be present if cubs were raised there . The track is very large for a cat .

tundragriz · « **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2009, 02:05:18 PM »

Look at it rationally.

Cougar don't fly, hibernate, or migrate unless their prey migrates, whitetail don't migrate. Significant parts of Pa are under snow significant amounts of time. Where I live it was white from bear season until about a week ago. No one in any recent year (more than 50) has ever found or photographed a wild lion track, even though our woods have about a million hunters running around everywhere when there is snow on the ground.

We have hound hunters in every forested part of the state chasing coon, bobcat, and coyote. No hound hunter has ever treed or given chase to a lion. Their dogs would love to if they chase any of the previous animals.

A lion given the opportunity in a prey rich environment will kill at least twice a week, most likely more often given the opportunity as they develop a preference for specific animal parts and start killing to eat only those parts. So a single lion would easily take 100 deer per year. No hunter, landowner, camper, hiker, or outdoor worker has ever discovered a kill. Lion kills are easily identified by finding partially eaten buried remains. Any dog will extremely easily smell out and reveal these decomposing kills even if human eyes don't stumble on them, but they are also pretty easy for humans to see.

A feeding cat defecates a minimum of twice a day. That would be over 750 litter scratch piles per year, easily seen by the scratched up piles of leaves or dirt. And also easily found by any dogs nose. If a pile is there and you have any dog, it is going to sniff it and you will see it. They aren't difficult to identify.

Pa has a good population of trappers. Lion are not difficult to catch the first time and certainly no more difficult to catch than a fox or coyote. No trapper has ever cought a cougar in Pa. A coyote trap will hold a smaller lion, if you catch a large lion in a fox type trap it will either break the trap, pull the stake, or pull out of the trap. In any case, the large pad prints left behind when it lunges against the solid staked trap will be identifiable.

Where they do exist it is extremely rare and fortunate to see one naturally in the wild. But it is NOT RARE to see their sign. If there is snow you can't help but see their tracks, that's how you hunt them, drive the roads until you see where one crossed. Their tracks are visible along streams or wherever they drink and crossing or walking right down dirt roads. If its a dirt road that vehicles use you will see their large pads in the disturbed dust. Their kills are easily found, every western hunter has probably found lion kills. You find their little toilet scratched up piles. Trappers catch them accidentally.

Simply put, there are no free ranging lion in Pa. At some point in time there may have been a domesticated one that got loose or deliberately released, but no wild ones currently roam around Pa.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #8 on:** March 08, 2009, 04:09:20 PM »

Yeah....what he said.

Dave

Bingo · « **Reply #9 on:** March 12, 2009, 02:35:31 PM »

OK Gentlemen;
I just got an E-Mail from Mary Robb Jackson. She is the reporter from KDKA news that ran the mountain lion story. The incident has been investigated by the Eastern Puma Research Network in Maysville WV.
They have confirmed that the local people have indeed seen a "PUMA". Scoff and scorn if you must, I'm not gullible, just open minded.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #10 on:** March 13, 2009, 12:20:30 AM »

FWIW, the "Eastern Puma Research organization" (or whatever) has a poor web site at http://www.easternpumaresearch.com/index.htm and from what I can tell from their "forum" they have about 4 (yes...that would be four) active posters. The "organization" appears to be a "Puma" Lovers "pretty kitty" web site and "appears" to be created by maybe one guy at the most.

So, you can be the judge of the credibility of opinion of the "Eastern Puma Research organization" (or whatever).

Dave.

manofthe45 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2009, 10:16:25 PM »

I was talking to my buddy Suaquash ( the real one not the old lady that works in the next department over from you with a beard like a mountain man) and he is very upset. he moved east to get away from the rifraff and such and now a mountain lion goes and moves in. Do you know what this is gonna do to property values in his neighborhood. He is not happy at all.

BCB · « **Reply #12 on:** March 14, 2009, 02:01:32 AM »

A couple of years ago, my wife and I were driving along a fencerow of a farmer’s field (yes, we had permission) heading to an area of good groundhog hunting. A gas line clearing went through the fencerow and then down through a wooded area. As we passed the clearing we BOTH saw a huge cat. I looked at the wife and she looked at me and I said, “What the hell was that?” Her reply, “I think a mountain lion”. I would not even begin to tell this tale if my wife had not seen the same critter. I had heard rumors in the area but always passed them off as just that—I don’t think so anymore. We were hunting in Clarion County. I certainly can’t prove anything that I have just said, but I have nothing to gain by just telling what we saw that evening…BCB

pahardwoods · « **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2009, 10:36:45 AM »

Penn State- Nittany Lions the name has to come from somewhere it cannot be made up???

For ex.

I have heard there is 12,000 Coyotes in PA truth or not, it is rare to see one of the thousands of coyotes across the state in all the moraine state park area(Butler) in which me and my family and friends counting 12 hunters avidly hunt. plsu other 5-10 dayers a year

Mt lion numbers would be around 75 as my guess which would make the chances of seeing these mammals dismall to practically ZERO. could definately be there, although im not saying all sightings are or should be taken seriously you cannot rule them out...

Davemuzz · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2009, 11:14:52 AM »

Yes that's true. Just like the Pitt Panthers. Of course, you never see the panthers on the inner city of Pittsburgh Pennsylvania because these panthers are so sneaky and sly, they just never get seen by the thousands of people who are in the city. And of course, for the unlucky few who seem to disappear from the face of the planet each year. Well, need I say more?

And of course, there is the Villanova Wildcats! Of course, they just beat the Pitt Panthers in the elite 8 of the NCAA tournament. Now, everyone knows that the "wildcats" are nothing more than feral cats. These cats roam Philadelphia by day and seem pretty harmless.....but at night their eyes turn to a phosphorescence green and they spit a acid venom. Of course, these are just "stories" as no one has actually seen these feral cats do this. But, once again....when Philadelphia residence disappear under strange circumstances.......Hey...all I'm sayin.

Nit-wit Lions,
Pitt Panthers,
Villy Wildcats,

I can't even get into all the High School mascots. ....JayHawks, BearCats (What?...what is a Bearcat???)

Dave

manofthe45 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 30, 2009, 04:20:02 PM »

I dread reading this every time it appears in my replies to your posts

Davemuzz · « **Reply #16 on:** March 30, 2009, 11:40:57 PM »

Ha Ha ha Ha Ha Ha......

Bingo · « **Reply #17 on:** April 01, 2009, 09:50:47 AM »

Manofthe45, I have a real easy answer for you.......Don't read it! Here's your sign.

manofthe45 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 01, 2009, 01:59:21 PM »

Quote from: Bingo on April 01, 2009, 09:50:47 AM

Manofthe45, I have a real easy answer for you.......Don't read it! Here's your sign.

As mod for this section I have no choice to read threads that are sure to become problamatic. If memory serves the last mt lion thrad got so far out of hand and I was tired of editing threads and just trashed the whole thing.

Could there be one sure I could hit the powerball tonight too, but neither is likley.

A Serval was shot in this state less than a year ago. Let em guess after the backlash of hunters after the PGC release cougars and relocated big foot to the big woods they decided to split the differance between bobcats and cougars in size or did one of the insurance agencies/ timber companies feel that the PGC wasn't eliminating deer fast enough and released the cougars themselves.

That said please feel free to post any stories about the neighbors housecat spotted after lastcall while big bertha carried you to the door. She sure looked better at 3 am didn't she?

Mt_Sourdough · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2009, 06:18:56 PM »

It seems that I see cat tracks every time I take a walk. Now that I think about it, I saw some today. Yesterday, I saw a doe with a big ol' scar on her front left shoulder that I suspect is evidence of a cat attack. Oh, by the way, I live in Montana. Ha ha ha.

My Grandpa was from Western Pennsylvania and I used to read his Pennsylvania Game News back in the late 70's and early 80's. Maybe they were refering to a long gone age, but I thought I read about big cats in Pennsylvania.

Bingo · « **Reply #20 on:** May 02, 2009, 02:50:56 AM »

I've come back to this post from time to time because something just sticks in my craw.
The first time I posted this over a year ago I got ridiculed. Then I posted again and some of you called it a house cat. The TV reporter got a verification on the sighting from a research center and smeone (without fact or research) tried to debunked or ridiculed them too.
It seems to me that no matter what someone says or does, if it doesn't fit into your narrow mind set as to what is possible. Just like the Dum-o-crates you have to call names, disgrace, and mud sling until your opponent just walks away. A good example of this was Sarah Palin. When she entered the race, the Dum-o-crates swarmed into her little town like a bunch of buzzards trying to dig up all filth they could find. If that didn't work the went after her family.
Manofthe45, as a moderator you should encourage healthy conversation and discussion. You have been negative and belittling. Ten years ago if someone said there were coyotes in Pa, they would have gotten the same reaction that I am getting on this forum. I did not say that the Game Commission brought them in. I did not say they were brought in by the insurance companies to control the deer herd and I do not buy into all the conspiracy theories that some people would try to circulate.
Doesn't it seem just a little more than a coincidence that the first time I posted this story it was just someone I knew. The second time ( a year Later) it was the news media reporting the same story from less than a mile away from the farm I mentioned.
It seems that one of the few people with an open mind is Graybeard as was exibited by his post on this subject. I guess that's why he is the head honcho though. Maybe as a moderator you should try to follow his example.

mannyrock · « **Reply #21 on:** May 02, 2009, 03:26:53 AM »

Bingo,

In reading through these replies, it appears to me that almost everyone has agreed that it is possible that there are a few lions in Pennsylvania. Large male cats of this type are known to roam over very large distances during certain times of the year, so perhaps a few are wandering in and out of the State, or traveling up and down the Appalachian Trail. I didn't hear anyone call you a liar.

I think that on this particular report of a sighting, however, lots of folks are just not willing to take the word of a Newspaper woman, who talked to a research group. And, they are not willing to take the word of your buddy. (Why should they? He isn't here to be questioned.)

Part of participating on these Boards is that you voluntarily subject yourself to open and robust comment and debate. That's what these Boards are for. That is, indeed, what all public forums are and were for, including those of Ancient Greece. The debate stimulates the exchange of different viewpoints, the exchange of new facts and interpretations, and ultimately a better understanding of the topic. Often, after I have started a post and given my opinion, I totally change my mind after reading all of the other comments and opinions.

I lived in West Tennessee near Memphis for 30 years, where we have huge bobcats in the swamps. I was amazed at how often a person (generally a suburban housewife) would see a big bobcat in a field, have no clue as to how to judge relative size, and immediately call in a panic and report that she had seen a lion. The State Game and Fish Division got these calls every week or so.

Regards,

Mannyrock

mechanic · « **Reply #22 on:** May 02, 2009, 03:34:01 AM »

There are / were no lions in Troup, Ga. either until someone killed one last yr. over 6' long. The DNR said it had been released by someone and took it away for testing. No word from them yet.

I've spent many hours in the wood, but most of the foxes I have seen have been crossing a road at night.

I know there are thousands of coyotes here, but it is extremely difficult to call one in and actually get a shot at it, or even see it sometimes.

If I can't prove it ain't so, I just leave it as a possiblility.

mannyrock · « **Reply #23 on:** May 02, 2009, 03:45:56 AM »

Dear Guys,

As a quick follow-up.

I have looked for a long time at the snapshot of the cat taken by the woman in her back yard in PA. If that is a mountain lion, then it sure has a black stripe running from its head all of the way to the end of its tail, and mottled spots on the side of its coat, and a tail that is at least a foot too short. Sure looks like all of the big male bobcats that I have killed. (They can easily reach 35 pounds when they are in an area with a real good food supply.)

A real problem in trying to analyze the photo is that the cat is standing in white snow, with nothing close by to give a frame of reference for its true size. Yes, it is possible that it's a mountain lion, . . . . but more possible that it is not.

Oh well, the debate rages on.

Regards,

Mannyrock

Bingo · « **Reply #24 on:** May 02, 2009, 10:39:38 AM »

The last two Gentleman that posted behind (Mannyrock and Mechanic) me are great examples of how to conduct a discussion. They do not necessarily agree with me but stop far short of being disrespectful. Such comments as Big Foot and Nittany Lions are childish. Thank you gentleman!

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #25 on:** May 02, 2009, 02:57:49 PM »

You guys can believe me or not but I saw one in the woods of SW Pa when I was just a kid. I was about 16 years old then ( 42 years old now ) and it was following me and a buddy walking through the woods. We were in Acme, Donagal area in Westmorland county. I told this to a guy I knew about 10 years ago. He a a nature freak and claimed to know everything about Pa's animals. He out right called me a liar. He said there are no Mountain Lions in Pa. He pissed me off because I know what I saw. Dale

manofthe45 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 02, 2009, 04:50:32 PM »

Hey I doubt nobody. I spent more than one night right here in PA with a cougar. Still have the nail marks down the back to prove it too.

As for MY sign. Well I am not the one surprised to get alittle heckling when I post having seen or having a buddy that saw an wild animal that has not existed in PA in over 100 years.

As for dum-crat. Wrong again right wing conserative

Coyotes- Well there is photographic proof of coyotes in PA since the 50's. The differance between the pics of the coyotes and those of "mountain loins" is that the coyote pics are of dead animals, close up and9 times out of 10 with the hunter in the pic. These M-L Pics are taken by trail cams that catch a tail or set of eyes and these eye-witness women. Well my mother-inlaw called me about a monster bear trying to get into her chicken coop. Arrived loaded for lion and one little yell sent that 75 pound if that cub running back to mama.

Like I said I really hate these threads.

leather5to1 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 31, 2009, 03:58:43 PM »

There are somethings I know, and some that I just hear and pass on as just what they are- rumors. I'll share a couple.
I know that if I saw a mountain lion it would get shot.
I know I could legally because they don't exist in PA and aren't a game animal, so they can't be protected.
I know that if I told anybody the PA game comm. would try hide it to keep panic down and hunters from scouring the woods for more.
I know there use to be mountain lions in our woods a hundred years ago.
I know the game comm. does things they won't tell anybody about.

I heard a story, this came over a scanner was heard and passed on. A ranger working in the grand canyon of PA called another ranger on his radio and reported seeing a mountain lion. The other guy called his bluff. The first ranger said he was sure it was a mountain lion. The second ranger asked how he could know that. The first ranger reported that it was about 4 feet long and its tail was as long as the rest of it. Just then a third voice broke in and said to cease this conversation immediately.

I heard another story, this was a friend of mine who was out hunting with a group. A member of their hunting party said he saw two wolves while hunting. (this was in northeast pa) He talked about it in the local town's diner. The next morning while they were in the diner a game warden came up and asked if he was the guy who said he saw the wolves the other day. He replied in the positive. The warden asked him other questions such as where, when, what time, what colors were they. He then thanked the hunter and told him most likely had seen wolves, several had been introduced earlier in the year in this area. What I have found out since is that these are illegally introduced wolves by private citizens. The game commision is trying to keep this from happening.

Wyo. Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #28 on:** June 01, 2009, 04:26:54 PM »

While hunting turkey in Penna. this May, I did see a nice bobcat in the wilderness area north of Clearfield, when I told some of my pals about seeing this cat, several mentioned of reports of mt. lions spotted in Pa. by local people. I let them describe what they saw, and it sound like they either saw mt. lions or believe they did. I have shot several in the west, and know first hand what they look like, and these folks were very accurate. Who knows. The one thing I am sure about is the last thing the Penna. Game Com. is concerned with is protecting or increasing any of the game in Pennsylvania.

Mt_Sourdough · « **Reply #29 on:** June 02, 2009, 05:06:42 AM »

Howdy everybody,
I posted a smart ars comment earlier, but I though you all might enjoy this Montana cat story
Today, my girlfriend took her kids down to Hamilton for a multiple birthday party. I took the opportunity for another bicycle ride up Miller Creek to my favorite no motorized access area up there to do more elk scouting. I did the grueling three mile climb a little quicker this time than the last time. When up on top, I would post up at some viewing point where I can see many ridges and lots of lush open parks on the ridges. There is deep plunging draws that have water and are heavily timbered and thick with brush.
I was seeing elk off at a distance. Closest elk was about a half a mile away and I saw a couple herds near the top of some ridgelines about a mile away. Couldnt see anything closer, but I noticed all the elk I saw were on the south face at the top of the ridges. Based on that, I decided to walk up the ridge behind me and take a look see.
I came to the draw when a thought came accross mind. I rembered the Warden telling me yesterday, "I wouldnt even get out of my car in this area without bear spray". Of course, that was in an entireley different area than I was now in, but I became conscious to the fact that I was as defenseless as a man could be right now.
I turned up into the draw and there was a game trail right up the middle with thick brush on the right side. I walked up about twenty feet when a Bobcat or a lynx emerges from some brush on the left side of the trail. When it appeared, it was less than 10 feet away. It started moving up the bank on my left. I dont know why, but I went for my binoculars and lifted them to my eyes. It took a second to pull the cat into view with my binos but when I did somethin imediately struck me. The cat was grayish colored, but had a long tail. Then, at about 10 yards away, it turned and looked back.
I found my self looking into the face of a cute, cuddly and fuzzy mountain lion cub. The funny thing is that it wasnt warm and fuzzy feelings I was suddenly feeling. It was looking back in my direction but it wasnt looking at me. My eyes spun 360 degrees around my head like the windows in the space needle. The cub was looking over my right shoulder, but I couldnt see three feet in front of me in that direction.
I started backing my way down the trail both quickly and slowly at the same time. I was looking all around in the plethora of hiding places all around me. I was also looking for a big stick or something to pick up and I readied myself for a heavey hit. As I backed down the trail, the cub just sat there watching. I could hear the squirels and chipmunks, the bird and insects. I could hear their every step.
When I reached the road, I backed to the far side because now if she comes at me, at least I'll see her coming. I then started back down the road toward my bike. I was watching all around me and anticipating the flutter of heavey footsteps.
Upon reaching my bike I snagged it up, hopped on and headed down the road. I wasnt to excited about watching the elk any more today, so I rode the four miles back to my car without stopping.
Fun Day