Talk to a newb about turret presses

[HuntMeister]

The reason how I know this is because I started reloading on a Lee press. I couldn't figure out why the resized case necks weren't exactly concentric with the case body and base. The pot metal had started to wear badly where the ram came through the body of the press. This allowed the ram to come up to the die on a slight angle and even though it was only a few degrees, it made a difference. I started to lube the ram and the lube turned silvery with the worn metal. I wrote Lee and they told me to ship it back and they would check it out. I threw it out and bought a Lyman turret and later, a Dillon SDB and a 550B. I haven't had a problem since and have been reloading for close to 30 years.

Flash, am I correct to understand that the LEE press you are talking about was from 30 years ago?

[Flash]

The reason how I know this is because I started reloading on a Lee press. I couldn't figure out why the resized case necks weren't exactly concentric with the case body and base. The pot metal had started to wear badly where the ram came through the body of the press. This allowed the ram to come up to the die on a slight angle and even though it was only a few degrees, it made a difference. I started to lube the ram and the lube turned silvery with the worn metal. I wrote Lee and they told me to ship it back and they would check it out. I threw it out and bought a Lyman turret and later, a Dillon SDB and a 550B. I haven't had a problem since and have been reloading for close to 30 years.

Flash, am I correct to understand that the LEE press you are talking about was from 30 years ago?

Yep, and they are still poor quality. Like I said, I knew someone would jump all over it but hey, it's your money.

[Badnews Bob]

I never jumped on it at all I ask for proof which I don't think you can provide because I don't think you've looked at a new Lee press. The new cast presses are made out of cast iron and steel, same as RCBS LYMAN and others, they are extremely stout and well made. If you are not going to check out new equipment why would you pass on miss information to a new person asking a question? 

Flash if you gave  one a good look I believe you would change your opinion.

[HuntMeister]

The reason how I know this is because I started reloading on a Lee press. I couldn't figure out why the resized case necks weren't exactly concentric with the case body and base. The pot metal had started to wear badly where the ram came through the body of the press. This allowed the ram to come up to the die on a slight angle and even though it was only a few degrees, it made a difference. I started to lube the ram and the lube turned silvery with the worn metal. I wrote Lee and they told me to ship it back and they would check it out. I threw it out and bought a Lyman turret and later, a Dillon SDB and a 550B. I haven't had a problem since and have been reloading for close to 30 years.

Flash, am I correct to understand that the LEE press you are talking about was from 30 years ago?

Yep, and they are still poor quality. Like I said, I knew someone would jump all over it but hey, it's your money.

Flash, not jumpin on ya just trying to make sure I understand your comments. All constructive opinions / discussions are appreciated.

[wncchester]

"I couldn't figure out why the resized case necks weren't exactly concentric with the case body and base. The pot metal had started to wear badly where the ram came through the body of the press. This allowed the ram to come up to the die on a slight angle and even though it was only a few degrees, it made a difference. I started to lube the ram and the lube turned silvery with the worn metal. I wrote Lee and they told me to ship it back and they would check it out. I threw it out and bought a Lyman turret and later, a Dillon SDB and a 550B."

I read all this with an amused grin.  I guess the "proof" of the judgement is in "lube the ram and it turned silvery" statement?   Okay, but most of us would have recognised that the user should have lubed that ram long beforits dry use had rubbed off so much silvery metal!  So, Lee offered to correct the "problem" but it was spunned and he bought another press?  What did he want or expect Lee to do?

If aluminum alloy is a poor material for presses then RCBS should be castigated for their Partner and some of the older Reloader Special presses, ditto for Hornady's LnL.  But, no, it seems the eletists ONLY stand in line to sputter and pontificate about how "poor" Lee presses are!  It gets sorta amusing, don't it?   I always wonder if it ever occurs to them that compairing the expected life a light alloy press to one of iron/steel is NOT an honest appraisal!

Bent necks, from a press?  Fact is, a little slop in a ram will NOT cause non-concentric necks, ever.  That is caused by non-concentric dies!  Unless it's travel is hindered, perhaps with a tight but poorly aligned press (not just worn), a round brass case WILL enter a round hole in a die and perfectly self center itself as it does.  So, IF the die threads and press ram are out of line a tad, the slop is a help for precision, not a hinderence.  BR shooters use hand dies, hand held, and an arbor press to give TOTAL freedom for the case and dies to self align.  Master riflesmiths use floating reamer holders to chamber rifles precisely, their reamers are NOT held in any solid grip.  Floating fixture alignment is a common aid to precision machining - and reloading!  The writer's case necks may well have been bent but it wasn't due slop in a worn press, that's simply a wrong deduction. 

So, the problem went away with a new Lyman turret iron press?   Well, I have one of those myself.  Fact is, the turret is virtually impossible to index exactly the same each time it's rotated - side to side misalignment seems to be a fact of life with such turrets.  And the effect is exactly the same as any wear on a ram, just in the east-west plane instead of north-south.  After some 47 years of use, even being properly lubed, it DOES have some ram slop too, in all four planes!  But, since the ram never was hard fitted, my cases always entered the dies fine and the ammo was good.  Still is.  BUT, due to head spring, the turret itself, I finally bought an (iron) single stage just to make precision loading easier.  Doesn't matter what brand my big press is, they are all equal, including the Lee Classic Cast.

Those who buy an aluminum alloy press and make a few hundred rounds a year will be fixed for life, no sweat.  Well, IF they lube it properly anyway.  But, anyone who buys an alum. alloy press and fails to lube it while loading thousands of rounds a year is kidding themselves!   Any such press "failure" is really a failure of the user to understand his tools and what he is doing! 

New guys who just want to get started and/or know they only want to do a modest amount of reloadng do well with Lee's older presses.  Then, if they get bad bit by the bug, it's time to get a more sturdy press.  There will always be some dedicated work that makes the old press useful so there's no call to toss it out and say it was a bad mistake.  I just don't think pushing my choice of press or dies, etc, on a new guy is helpful to most new guys, especially if my observations are personal and not valid for others.   None of that's an intellectually challanging recognition is it?

Wonder what he did with the bad sizer die, the one that made bent necks in the Lee press 30 years ago?

Hope everyone has a GREAT WEEKEND!   

[Flash]

"I couldn't figure out why the resized case necks weren't exactly concentric with the case body and base. The pot metal had started to wear badly where the ram came through the body of the press. This allowed the ram to come up to the die on a slight angle and even though it was only a few degrees, it made a difference. I started to lube the ram and the lube turned silvery with the worn metal. I wrote Lee and they told me to ship it back and they would check it out. I threw it out and bought a Lyman turret and later, a Dillon SDB and a 550B."

I read all this with an amused grin.  I guess the "proof" of the judgement is in "lube the ram and it turned silvery" statement?   Okay, but most of us would have recognised that the user should have lubed that ram long beforits dry use had rubbed off so much silvery metal!  So, Lee offered to correct the "problem" but it was spunned and he bought another press?  What did he want or expect Lee to do?

If aluminum alloy is a poor material for presses then RCBS should be castigated for their Partner and some of the older Reloader Special presses, ditto for Hornady's LnL.  But, no, it seems the eletists ONLY stand in line to sputter and pontificate about how "poor" Lee presses are!  It gets sorta amusing, don't it?   I always wonder if it ever occurs to them that compairing the expected life a light alloy press to one of iron/steel is NOT an honest appraisal!

Bent necks, from a press?  Fact is, a little slop in a ram will NOT cause non-concentric necks, ever.  That is caused by non-concentric dies!  Unless it's travel is hindered, perhaps with a tight but poorly aligned press (not just worn), a round brass case WILL enter a round hole in a die and perfectly self center itself as it does.  So, IF the die threads and press ram are out of line a tad, the slop is a help for precision, not a hinderence.  BR shooters use hand dies, hand held, and an arbor press to give TOTAL freedom for the case and dies to self align.  Master riflesmiths use floating reamer holders to chamber rifles precisely, their reamers are NOT held in any solid grip.  Floating fixture alignment is a common aid to precision machining - and reloading!  The writer's case necks may well have been bent but it wasn't due slop in a worn press, that's simply a wrong deduction. 

So, the problem went away with a new Lyman turret iron press?   Well, I have one of those myself.  Fact is, the turret is virtually impossible to index exactly the same each time it's rotated - side to side misalignment seems to be a fact of life with such turrets.  And the effect is exactly the same as any wear on a ram, just in the east-west plane instead of north-south.  After some 47 years of use, even being properly lubed, it DOES have some ram slop too, in all four planes!  But, since the ram never was hard fitted, my cases always entered the dies fine and the ammo was good.  Still is.  BUT, due to head spring, the turret itself, I finally bought an (iron) single stage just to make precision loading easier.  Doesn't matter what brand my big press is, they are all equal, including the Lee Classic Cast.

Those who buy an aluminum alloy press and make a few hundred rounds a year will be fixed for life, no sweat.  Well, IF they lube it properly anyway.  But, anyone who buys an alum. alloy press and fails to lube it while loading thousands of rounds a year is kidding themselves!   Any such press "failure" is really a failure of the user to understand his tools and what he is doing! 

New guys who just want to get started and/or know they only want to do a modest amount of reloadng do well with Lee's older presses.  Then, if they get bad bit by the bug, it's time to get a more sturdy press.  There will always be some dedicated work that makes the old press useful so there's no call to toss it out and say it was a bad mistake.  I just don't think pushing my choice of press or dies, etc, on a new guy is helpful to most new guys, especially if my observations are personal and not valid for others.   None of that's an intellectually challanging recognition is it?

Wonder what he did with the bad sizer die, the one that made bent necks in the Lee press 30 years ago?

Hope everyone has a GREAT WEEKEND!   

Oh my, what comprehension we have! The oil was to see how fast the metal was breaking away. I lube all my equipment with graphite to prevent primer and powder contamination but based on your self proclaimed reloading expertise, you should have already have known that. The neck not being concentric to the base has nothing to do with the die at all. Let's delve into Reloading 101. The press body was wearing in exactly the same spot and allowed the ram to be pushed outward toward the operator during sizing. Once the case was inside the die, the neck and shoulder were formed perfectly but as I stated in my previous post, which you obviously skimmed over, the neck wasn't concentric to the case body and the base. This boys and girls means that the shoulder and neck were on one centerline and the body and base were shoved sideways to be on a completely different centerline. This created a sharp shoulder on one side of the case about a 1/4" from the base/rim. Loaded rounds were almost impossible to chamber due to this. Yes, I said the Lyman T-Mag made the problem go away. Sure, anytime you have moving parts which are connected on a different axis, repeatable positioning is almost impossible but the Lyman T-Mag wasn't off by .062. That is a 1/16" for those wanting a Lee.
New guys who just want to get started will be better off buying something other than a Lee. They aren't made of aluminum alloy, that is Dillon. Lee presses are made of pot metal which is a zinc alloy. Better yet, here is the definition............
Pot metal is a slang term that refers to alloys that consist of inexpensive, low-melting point metals used to make fast, inexpensive castings. There is no scientific metallurgical standard for pot metal; common metals in pot metal include zinc, lead, copper, tin, magnesium, aluminium, iron, and cadmium. The primary advantage of pot metal is that it is quick and easy to cast. Due to its low melting temperature no sophisticated foundry equipment is needed and specialized molds are not necessary. It is sometimes used to experiment with molds and ideas before using metals of higher quality. It is sometime referred to as white metal, die-cast zinc, or monkey metal.[1] Examples of items created from pot metal include toys, furniture fittings, tool parts, electronics components, and automotive parts.[citation needed]

Pot metal can be prone to instability over time, as it has a tendency to bend, distort, crack, shatter, and pit with age.[1] The low boiling point of zinc and the fast cooling of the newly-cast part often allow air bubbles to remain within the cast part, weakening the metal.[1] Many of the components of pot metal are susceptible to corrosion from airborne acids and other contaminants, and the internal corrosion of the metal often causes the decorative plating to flake off.[citation needed] Pot metal is not easily glued, soldered or welded.[1]

At one time, "pot metal" referred to a copper alloy that was primarily alloyed with lead. 67% Cu, 29% Pb & 4% Sb and 80 Cu, 20% Pb were common formulations.[2]

The primary component of pot metal is zinc, but often the caster adds other metals to the mix to strengthen the cast part, improve the flow of the molten metal, or to reduce cost.[dubious – discuss] With a low melting point of 419 °C (786 °F), zinc is often alloyed with other metals including lead, tin, aluminium and copper.


Getting back to the aluminum alloy press. Buy that one!! I have a Dillon 550 and a Square Deal B and they are, without a doubt the best progressive and turret on the market.
But if someone wants to blow their money on a tool that will wear fast and be replaced before anything else on the bench, buy Lee!

[beerbelly]

If you had read the instructions that came with the Lee press it would have told you the lube the moving parts of the press like the ram. Had you done so it would have given you many years of service.
                             Beerbelly

[Badnews Bob]

New guys who just want to get started will be better off buying something other than a Lee. They aren't made of aluminum alloy, that is Dillon. Lee presses are made of pot metal which is a zinc alloy. Better yet, here is the definition............

I still think you need to come into this century and give a look at the new Lee presses before you say that...THEY ARE NOT MADE OF POT METALthey are made of cast iron and are nothing like old Lee presses and even at that my 20+ year old Lee turrent press works just fine.

People should consider allowing a company to upgrade and check out there equipment before makeing blanket statement about them,JMHO.

[Lead pot]

I have two turret presses laying under the bench, one Lee and one Hornady.
With the turrets you spend more time fooling with the primer feed seating primers up side down, no primer in the pocket, no powder in the case, double charged case, squib loads.
If your looking for saving time loading using a turret will not take less time then it will with a single station press.
Besides loading ammo is not a speed contest.
Yes the shell plates are good for making die changes.
Here is a press http://www.forsterproducts.com/Pages/press.htm were you set your dies once for your chamber and die changing is quick and simple and the press is precise, straight in line for bullet seating case sizing with out uneven pressure on the case wall from a sloppy fitting ram or off center rams.
If you do want a Turret press go with a quality press like the Redding or Lyman.
Just my .02Ç on this one.

Lp

[bajabill]

I reload as a hobby and don't have any quotas to meet, so, changing dies isn't a problem for me (really, how much difference does 45 seconds to one minute make?). I would suggest a first press be a single stage press. Learning to reload with a single stage press will allow you to learn the "why" (theory) of each reloading step. Adjusting dies will show you what each adjustment has to do with the finished round, and as stated earlier lock rings will give you "return to" settings. In my opinion, there is a big difference between throwing a bunch of components together to go bang (reloading) and manufacturing custom ammo for your specific gun (handloading) and knowing each step in the process will only allow you to make better, more consistant ammo. Handloading is a VERY rewarding part of my shooting, and fun too!

MDI's message needs to sink in for everyone here.  I think the word  HOBBY  also needs to be emphasized.

For me, and everyone's applications are different, a quick switch, no messing with settings press would make a good boat anchor.  I change cartridges yes, but even if I only loaded for one chambering, I like to

real hard full length size
light full length size - measure amount of set back I want
partial full length size
neck size
size without expander ball
change bullet weight - and subsequent seating depth
change seating depth for the hell of it without changing bullets
allow some crimp on seating
take out that crimp
use a factory crimp die
load about 2 to 4 rounds with the same amount of power, then bump up a half grain or so

this is just what quickly rolls off the tongue, and did I mention that I measure brass a whole lot in the mean time. The only thing I dont like to do is to trim brass, and neck turning can sometimes be considered a chore.


I just dont think the monkey operation of a turret press spitting out hundreds of nearly similar rounds would keep this endeavor in my HOBBY category.  I wish I could shoot more, but I cant, so I have to get my firearm jollys in the reloading room.

I started with a Lee Anniversary Kit, I was completely new to this and knew nobody that reloaded to get a feel for it.  I figured that the initial cost of about 70 plus dies would be all I stood to lose if I did not like it.  And if I did like it, I could buy "better" stuff later.  Well if you like this, you are going to spend a whole lot more than 70 bucks before you get tired of using the Lee equipment along the way.  I made a pact with myself, I would replace the Lee press after 1000 rounds, and bought an RCBS rock chucker used for roughly another 70 dollars.  I still use most of the other items in that kit, and the Lee press is mounted right next to my RCBS and gets used a little.

Anyone starting out in this intoxicating hobby, would do well to read what MDI wrote above, and take it to heart.

[Badnews Bob]

BajaBill, You make some very good points and I agree with you, I started with 50 dallors worth of use Lee equipment. I now have three single stage presses and two progressive presses and one turrent press and a pile of other stuff, I really enjoy my hobby. When I load for my .38s or .357s, 9mm and .45s I may load 1000 to 2000 at one setting Thats why I have the Square deal b, I have a dillion 650 for loading bulk .308 and .223 once again same load and lots of them. ( auto loaders get hungry) for hunting ammo and precision I use my Lee classic cast single stage. Diffrent tools for diffrent jobs.

I have a small problem with statements based on thirty year old problem that haven't checked to see if it was addressed and amended by the manufactor or not.

Basing  a statement on newer equipment only 2 or 3 years old useing information gathered 30 years ago isn't a very good statement.

[Flash]

If you had read the instructions that came with the Lee press it would have told you the lube the moving parts of the press like the ram. Had you done so it would have given you many years of service.
                             Beerbelly

If you would have read my posts, they would have told you that I lube with graphite. Had you done so, you would have written a different reply. If I had to use money for my purchases from all you members, I could see that my opinions wouldn't count too much. However, since it is my green backs and I can't expect anyone to waste their money any more than I would, I must offer my opinion about what I would consider to be a wise purchase regarding reloading presses. A cast iron press is brittle and highly prone to wear and breakage. An investment cast STEEL press as in Lyman, RCBS, Hornady, etc. is a wise investment and has the strength of steel, not cast iron. Again, Lee becomes the budget version. Their turret has a teflon gear for auto indexing and this last about as long as a lit match. Like I said, spend your money on Lee and I'll spend mine on Lyman and Dillon.

[wncchester]

"This boys and girls means that the shoulder and neck were on one centerline and the body and base were shoved sideways to be on a completely different centerline. This created a sharp shoulder on one side of the case about a 1/4" from the base/rim.'

Not really.  Something else had to create the "sharp shoulder", whatever that shoulder was.  It would take a tremendous side force to do anything like that on a hard brass case.  No reloading press has that level of side force at ANY point of the ram's vertical travel, especially not up near the top!  

The major force on a reloading press' ram is vertical.  While the angle of lifting force is somewhat sharply tangant to the line of the ram initally (and some slight press hole and/or ram wear will occur if it's not lubed properly). But that small off-axis force rapidly diminishes to zero as the ram rises full elevation.  It's virtually zero when the ram is only 1/4" from its full height when sizing, there is simply no way that tiny angular displacement could cause any case shift in a sizing die.  Those are just the simple facts of any toggle and lever system, it's not open for argument.  So, as I said in my original post, the round case easily centers itself in the die unless it's inhibited from doing so.  Your expressed comprehension of the forces at play in a press is in error.

Another error is in your description of pot metal and the allegation that Lee made presses of it.  Yes, pot metal has long been a simple mix of low temp metals for melting in a "pot" over a fire for making cheap toys and untinsels.  No one couldhonestly say aluminum or steels are low temp metals so neither could ever have been a component of pot metal.  Anyone with your obvious knowledge of metals has to know that so your accessment is dishonest at best.

Richard Lee is an excellant engineer.  He knows both design and metals.  Alum. alloys are often stronger, pound for pound, than steel.  Lee specified the alloy for his ingots and designed his presses around that material.  Calling Lee's presses weak "pot metal" is worse than wrong, it's silly.  Tens of thousands of happy users will not agree with you.

I do agree that you and I and any the others who are reloading hobbiests are indeed better served with other presses.  But to suggest that the "average" reloader, the guy who only fires a few hundered rounds a year, at the most, should get a massive iron press, or a very expensive Dillon progressive, simply because that's what suits our needs best, is NOT doing the newbie any good.  Why not really help by suggesting he purchase what HE needs!  

Truth be told, you had to run a LOT of ammo through that old Lee press before any slop such as you describe became an issue so surely you would agree that Lee doesn't owe you a thing, even if it was worn out.  (Not that it really was, not in my opinion!)  ??

Seems we hard core guys should give a newbie the (honest) pros and cons of any tools he's looking at, including our defined opinions, without injecting sneers towards those who disagree or have other needs.

-------------------------------

Ref. your latest error:  "A cast iron press is brittle and highly prone to wear and breakage. An investment cast STEEL press as in Lyman, RCBS, Hornady, etc. is a wise investment and has the strength of steel, not cast iron. Again, Lee becomes the budget version. "

Yes, cast iron is somehat brittle, that's part of why the cast iron presses are so massive.  But cast iron DOES have quite a bit of flex before it breaks so it's an excellant material for press bodies

All of the big RCBS presses (not the little "Partner" press, it's alum. alloy and so were a couple of others in the past) and Lyman's, Redding and Forster presses are indeed cast iron.  With the current RCBS models being cast in China, if that matters to anyone.  And Hornady's current LnL press bodies are also cast alum. alloy. 

Only the Lee Classic Cast presses are cast from steel, old railroad rails actually.

Graphite is a lousy lube for a press ram.  IMHO.

We are all entitled to our own opinons but we are not entitled to our own facts.

[Flash]

Only the Lee Classic Cast presses are cast from steel, old railroad rails actually.



We are all entitled to our own opinons but we are not entitled to our own facts.

I love it when a man appears to know everything but yet realizes his own limitations.
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1235244831.3025=/html/catalog/classic.html
Lee must have failed to publish the RR track ruse. Oh, maybe it was Lionel track? Lee Lee Lee Lee Lee

[Badnews Bob]

You know most engine blocks in cars happen to be made of cast iron and they hold up pretty well to alot more work than you'll ever do on a reloading press, So why would a cast iron press not be strong? I am not telling anyone what to buy or not.  I just want to know why people say that the Lee presses are all junk when in fact they are not. In the past couple of years since the classic cast came out I have been reading the reviews on it and I have never seen a negative review except by people who have never used one.

Flash have you ever checked out a New Lee press or used one? I think that if you did you might change your mind.... Or not.  But i also think that your basing your opinion on old expreiance that in my opinion is biased and untrue.
 

[Flash]

All the bearing surfaces in a cast iron engine block are hardened, high carbon steel except for the cam. Even the valves have super hard guides in the cast iron heads. That isn't because they had an abudance of steel to make bearings out of, it's because cast iron doesn't handle friction well. The porosity (holes) in cast iron allows it to microscopically break apart under stress and heat. This equates to simple wear. Steel on the other hand has a higher density and is more malleable (flexible) for a better bearing surface. Can you imagine the cost and weight of a steel engine block? So, they make them from cast iron. The Asian auto producers have more and better access to bauxite otherwise, their engines would be cast iron too.  By the way, engines before the 70's, had an engineered life span of about 70,000 miles. I now have 175,000 miles on my Chevy Silverado. Lee never had the pressure to pump out a better product because they were one of the only games in town. Now with quadruple the reloaders and more suppliers with better bells and whistles, maybe Lee is taking notice with a better product but not one good enough to get my money. They had their chance. It's no different than the dedicated automobile buyer who dispises one and praises another. A Yugo rolls and runs but will it get you there like a $40,000 Lexus? Nope!
Buy a Lee and see for yourself.

[wncchester]

"Lee must have failed to publish the RR track ruse. Oh, maybe it was Lionel track?"

Yeah.  I wonder why their publishing dept. continues to print that "cast iron' thing myself.  

But, the factory brochures and several magazine articles all say cast of railroad rails and they show the cut-up sections of rails headed for the furnace.  Of course, I have no personal knowledge of all that so maybe the borchure makers and magazine writters are wrong and you are right, finally.  But, in view of all your other easily provable errors, I sorta doubt it!  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, your latest comments require another observation. 

Ain't no high speed, high pressure or high temp loads placed on the cast iron of a press so it don't need no special heat treatment or steel liners.  And the valve guides in autos are not cast iron so...what's that about?   

" Lee never had the pressure to pump out a better product because they were one of the only games in town."

That's an interesting comment.  Aren't they still "one of the only games in town'?  And isn't that all any of them are, or ever were?  Truth be told, we had maybe twice as many reloading tool makers some 30 years ago as we do now.  I remember when we had common reloading tools from long gone makers Savage, Pacific, Herters, Eagle, Lachmiller, Hollywood, CH, Wells, Ruhr-American, Texan, Bair, Bonanza, etc.  Today we still have a few of the oldies; Lee, RCBS, Lyman, Hornady (bought Pacific actually), Forster (bought Bonanza) and Redding.  Only Dillion is the single "new guy" in the market.  Seems clear we used to have many more "only games in town" than now.  ?

Seems you are the one who is despising the one, .... etc. and your only justification is that Lee had their "one chance" with you some 30 years ago!   It's amusing, but NO ONE here has praised Lee tools above what their due respect deserves. 

Do you cast off a whole line of autos because you once owned one that got a flat tire?   

Have a good, blissful day!

(Gotta bash Lee, bash Lee, bash Lee, bash ...)  

[Badnews Bob]

I have two of them and I like them very much , They are as well made as my Dillions and my RCBS equipment.

Also I have built many car engines and none of them have High carbon steel bearing surfaces, The cam bearings and crank bearings are softer than the cast iron they ride in, valves have bronze guides the seats are hardened but not because of friction but because of heat, The piston bores are striaght up cast iron, Some crankshafts are forged steel but mostly only in higher priced performance engines.

I gotta agree with you on the Yugo but all the Lexus is, is an over priced Toyota and when Toyota fist came to the USA they where about the same quailty as a Yugo, They've come along way In thirty years wouldn't you say.  Just maybe Lee has too.

[Siskiyou]

I bought my first Lee Handloader in the late 1950’s.   It was for the 12-guage, I shot up a lot of shotgun shells in those days.  Duck and goose season lasted about four months with dove starting before and pheasant season in November.

The next Lee Loader I bought was for the 38/357 and I was creating a lot of loads.  In those days I was loading at the kitchen table.  I did not like the priming device because every once and while one bang, or I would mess one up.  I was fortunate the wife was tolerant.  This loader went North each year to my in-laws and I loaded at night and spent the afternoon firing behind their rural home.

The minute I saw the Lee Hand primer about 1970 I bought it. It used a threaded shell holder.  It lasted for a while and I was satisfied until one-day part of the mechanism folded up like chewing gum.  What I thought was a good tool turned out to be junk.  I still have it occupying space.

Following this event I started reading about Lee breaking into two different companies, in the dispute they divided up the technology and went different ways.  The consumer was caught in between.  I believe it is during this period of time that Lee gained a negative reputation.  Lee Precision emerged from this period with some good products.

The failure of that original hand primer was not unique and other loaders were having the same problem.  When I started using the primer that came with the Lee Loader my wife suggested that I might want to do something different.  My response was “Oh gosh dear, it cost a little more but I would like a Lyman Spar-T kit”.  She agreed and the primer popping came to an end.

The Lee Hand primer had been great until it folded.  I stayed away from Lee products for a while, but a few years later I walked into a friendly shop, and they had a new, larger hand primer, which took a slip-in shell holder.  It was a major redesign.  The shop owner told me he used one on his bench and if I was unhappy he would give me my money back.  It has not failed me.

I have three or four Lee Precision die sets and I have had no problem with them.  I sure like the de-capping die.  I have die sets from Lyman, RCBS, and Hornady so I have a fair breath of experience with reloading dies.  The only Lee press I have used belonged to a friend.  The press was rather lightweight, but produce good handgun loads.

Lee goes the extra mile producing Help Videos to assist its customers.  They are a good review for the old loaders, and a must for the new guy.

http://www.leeprecision.com/html/HelpVideos/video.html

[mdi]

Flash,

Maybe if you had sent the press in to Lee they would have replaced it. Could it have been a faulty casting? One press hardly makes an arguement against a manufacturer. I used a Lee Challenger for about 7 years and never a prob. Sold it during a break in my reloading. I've got a C-H single stage press with the wear you speak of. But then again, I've reloaded several thousand rounds (and sized, seated gaschecks, "swaged" some 44 bullets) and have no idea how many before me. So, should I s!@#-can my C-H and never buy another? No offence intended but one "bad" Lee doesn' make all their presses bad.

BTW, I have seen a lot of what I call "Tool Snobery". I work in a heavy construction equipment repair shop and see a lot of tools purchased only because of their name and/or color. "If it ain't Snap-on (or MAC, or Matco, etc) it ain't no good". Seen the same with reloading equipment.

[quickdtoo]

Every time I see a Lee vs the others thread, this post by papajohn at MO comes to mind! 

Tim

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,19388.msg195341.html#msg195341

I sat down to load a few hundred 38's tonight, and my Lee Turret Press is exhibiting some wobble in the handle I've never felt before.  I'm thinking I may have finally worn it out!  It still works, but the handle swings from side to side, several inches, when it's in the lower end of its arc.

Cheap piece of junk has only loaded about 630,000 rounds in the last 20+ years, an average of 4 strokes of the handle per loaded round, a mere 2.5 Million operations performed without any problems.  I think I paid $59.00 for it back in the early 80's....well, what did I expect from cast aluminum?

Then again, it DOES still work......I guess I'll just keep cranking the handle until it falls off in a few more years!

Papajohn the Aluminum Abuser

[ButlerFord45]

Only the Lee Classic Cast presses are cast from steel, old railroad rails actually.



We are all entitled to our own opinons but we are not entitled to our own facts.

I love it when a man appears to know everything but yet realizes his own limitations.
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1235244831.3025=/html/catalog/classic.html
Lee must have failed to publish the RR track ruse. Oh, maybe it was Lionel track? Lee Lee Lee Lee Lee

My dog's on a leash so he's not gonna be in this fight but if you'd take the time to scroll down your own link, the reference to the railroad rails is there in all it's splendor.

BF

[Badnews Bob]

WOW I missed that BF. But then I own both the single stage and turrent, I don't need anymore convincing.

 I was really just trying to point out to Flash that maybe things have changed in thirty years. 

[wncchester]

Butler:  "... if you'd take the time to scroll down your own link, the reference to the railroad rails is there in all it's splendor."

Ah, yes.  Thanks, I didn't take time to review the whole site myself.  Just saw - again - that the compan's description SAYS "cast iron".  I wonder why and how they continue that when  the published details say cast steel.    Not sure it makes a lot of difference but facts is facts.  

Those don't LOOK like "Lionel" rails to me, but ..... who knows?  The "Flash"? 

[Flash]

Butler:  "... if you'd take the time to scroll down your own link, the reference to the railroad rails is there in all it's splendor."

Ah, yes.  Thanks, I didn't take time to review the whole site myself.  Just saw - again - that the compan's description SAYS "cast iron".  I wonder why and how they continue that when  the published details say cast steel.    Not sure it makes a lot of difference but facts is facts.  

Those don't LOOK like "Lionel" rails to me, but ..... who knows?  The "Flash"? 

I wouldn't care if they're made from the Brooklyn Bridge or the Space Shuttle, they're still junk. And junk will always be junk, regardless of what it's made from.

[Badnews Bob]

[/quote]

I wouldn't care if they're made from the Brooklyn Bridge or the Space Shuttle, they're still junk. And junk will always be junk, regardless of what it's made from.
[/quote]

Tool snobbery I think would be the best way to discribe this.

Really Flash why would you say this? Have you ever touched one? Do you know anyone who has one? Or are you just saying so because it says Lee on it?

[Flash]

You must be kidding me. I live in a state that has more licensed hunters than any other state in the country. Within a few miles of 10 different gun clubs and all have shooting ranges. The gun shops in town have been here for over 50 years and there isn't a one that sells Lee equipment. The sporting goods stores sell the stuff but not to anyone I know. Be real gentlemen, just because a handfull of people like Lee equipment doesn't mean that 300,000,000 people have to. I buy Dillon direct because nobody handles it around here. I can buy RCBS locally or Lyman but can't even buy Lee. It doesn't sell here and not because it's red either. This is a town that goes back several generations (Gettysburg) and it's all about proven quality. I am ending this nonsense since it's a waste of my time. It's your money, do with it what you please.

[Badnews Bob]

No Flash I am not kidding and I am sorry you can't get over your snobbish outlook to even give something a fair look. I never asked you to like it just give it a fair look and you won't. You are completely wrong about this as a matter of fact you are not even close.  I am sorry they don't sell it in Gettysburg But every sporting goods store I have ever been in has sold and carried Lee equipment right besides all the others.

I hope the new guys reading this understand my point, You do not have to buy anything you don't like but a least give a good look at everything before you just dismiss it.

I really like the new Lee presses they are as well made as anyone elses maybe better than some, I also like my Dillions and RCBS, I use hornady, lyman, redding, and other equipment to.

Flash is smashing something he knows nothing about.

[wncchester]

Bob, my father used to mutter a short poem at times like this:

"You can always the Irish, you can always tell the Dutch.

You can always tell the mindless, but you cannot tell them much."

Dad meant to never argue with closed minded folk by using facts, they have
already taken their positions and will beat you down with their vast experience!

Come on, Flash, saying "...can't even buy Lee. It doesn't sell here.." means nothing mechanically about the product!  Surely you can't say that as proof of anything relivant to the discussion.   Or, are we to take it as clear, factual evidence that Lee presses are "junk"?  Well, no.  I can't buy a Forster CoAx nor a Redding Ultramag within at least a 100 mile radius of here; so what does that prove?  Exactly nothing except the dealers don't stock them.  Several do stock Lee but that, too, proves nothing, at least not to me.  At least some of us would really like something with a bit more substance!   Not trying to give you a hard time, maybe I'm just not smart enough to see the wisdom of your invisible logic so far. ??

You even lost with your efforts at a "press preference poll" a few threads above this one for goodness sakes.  Lee came in a close second!  And people are still supposed to just accept your stubborn statements that Lee is "junk", across the board, without evidence or you trying one, or even looking at one?   Not so!