7.65 Argentine Load?

[galster69]

I recently purchased a 1909 argentine mauser in 7.65 cal.  I also received a set of dies for it so I loaded up a few loads according to my Hornady manual.  I used 43 gns of H380 and a CCI Large Rifle Primer with both the 150 spitzer and the 174 round nose.  Out of 12 handloads I had 3 hang fires.  I talked to a couple guys at the gun club and they said the H380 likes magnum primers, has anyone else experienced this?  I was also wondering about the seating depth.  I used the C.O.L from the reloading manual but not sure is the best for my rifle.  Does anyone know an easy way to find the best seating depth in my particular rifle without buying any of the specialty cartridge measure devices? 

[Catfish]

First, I have never had that problem with H-380 powder, is there a chance you could have contaminated the powder or had mositure in the cases? As for checking the throught in your rifle size the neck just enough to keep the bullet from falling out but so that it will still slide easily in the case and then chamber it in your rifle and measure it. Pull the bullet back out and do it a couple of time, that should get you close enough so you can start playing with the seating depth.

[cwlongshot]

I have had and loaded for 5 of these thru the years. Currently I have one left. They are getting scarce!!! I just saw one the other day and the asking price was $400!!! I don't think I EVER paid half that!!!

 Any way GREAT rifle. IMHO the best of the "98 Mauser's". Esp if your going to sporterize down the road!

 I agree with Catfish. I have used H380 allot and never saw the need for a mag primer or had any miss or hang fires. It will work but is not the best for this caliber anyhow. Both the 150 and 174 bullets are good ones and work well for big game. Your mag is usually the limiting factor in OAL. The 174RN can be seated to reach the rifling but IIRC the 150 is too short to keep enough in the case. What you want to do is load up some dummy bullets. Do this at the loading bench. re-size a case and seat a bullet LONG. Make it so it just fits in the mag and try to chamber it. Don't force it. Go slow and feel for resistance or hangups. Seat a bit deeper and repeat until you get it to chamber and the bolt to close easily. Now if you where careful you will have that bullet with in a couple thousands of the rifling. I would push it in the case at least another .005 to be sure of the distance and put that bullet in the die box for future loadings with that bullet. Now repeat this with all the bullets you will be shooting in this gun. This is what I do for every gun I load for.

As for powders, I like the IMR line and many will work well for the 7.65. IMR4895, 3031, 4320 and 4350 are but a few on the short list. Same powders from Hodgden will be just as good.

 Who's cases are you using? Norma is the only commercially available I know about. Mine are made from military 30-06. Trimmed, deburred with the primer pockets swaged and uniformed then  finally neck turned.

CW

[Larry Gibson]

43 gr of 380 is 2 gr below the recommended starting load in the old Lyman manual and 380 isn't even listed in the new Lyman Manual.  You may have found out why.  380 is a ball powder and they are harder to ignite, especially with an essentially reduced load like yours.  I've been loading and shooting the 7.65 Argentine for many years in M91s and M1909s.  I'd suggest switching to 4895, either H or IMR, as I've found that to be an excellent powder in the 7.65 Argentine.  I also wouldn't get to exited about seating depth. You don't have a rifle that will know the difference.  I seat the .312" Hornady 150s to the base of the canelure and they shoot fine in all my rifles.  The Speer, Sierra, Hornady .310/.311 125 gr bullets for the AK/SKS make dandy varmint bullets in the 7.65.  The Sierra and Speer 150 .311s are also good deer bullets.  The Hronady 174 RM, the Remington 180 .311 and the Sierra 180 .311 are all decent hunting bullets for bear or elk...deer too!   The 7.65 is also a very good cast bullet shooter.  Cast GC bullets of 155 to 200 gr at upwards of 1950 fps can be very accurate.  In well fire formed cases the Hornady swaged lead .32 SWC over 3.2 gr of Bullseye makes for a great plinker/small game load at 900 fps or so.

Norma makes 7.65 Argentine ammo as does Hornady and PRVI.  The Hornady is loaded with the .312 gr 150 gr bullet and it runs 2760 fps out of 24" barreled M91. The Norma is rather spendy no matter where you find it but the Hornady is generally available for a decent price as is the PRVI.  The Hornady I used was purchased at Cabella's and PRVI is available from Graff's.

Larry Gibson

[galster69]

Thanks for all the good info guys. 
Now to answer a few questions:
Catfish: is there a chance you could have contaminated the powder or had mositure in the cases? - contamination doubtful in the powder, due to new unopened container of H380 on these loads and no moisture issues as the storage and reloading operation are being conducted in my spare bedroom and the cases hadn't been exposed to any water.

size the neck just enough to keep the bullet from falling out but so that it will still slide easily in the case and then chamber it in your rifle and measure it. Pull the bullet back out and do it a couple of time- I've done this measuring the case both before and after and have found that even with the 174 rn inserted just enough to get it to stay in the cartridge there is no change in the length before and after, leading me to think that it's not hitting the rifling at all even seated as far out as I can get it.....but I'm going to try again to make sure I didn't mess anything up

cwlongshot - Who's cases are you using? Norma is the only commercially available I know about. - I'm using Norma brass that I received with the rifle when I bought it

Any way GREAT rifle. IMHO the best of the "98 Mauser's". Esp if your going to sporterize down the road! - I love this gun!  Paid $350 for it with 5 boxes of Norma Brass, 100 bullets and reloading dies.  It has a Bueller Safety, aftermarket trigger, drilled and tapped, matching numbers (including stock which has been modified to a mannlicher style, one of my favorite touches) and has the ever sought after hinged floor plate as all 1909s do.

Larry Gibson - 43 gr of 380 is 2 gr below the recommended starting load in the old Lyman manual and 380 isn't even listed in the new Lyman Manual.  You may have found out why.
You're right about the new Lyman manual not having H380 in it but according to my Hornady manual it shows that in the 150 gr spirepoint 44.4 grains is max and 38 grns is minimum.  174 rn is 39.9 minimum with 46.9 being max.  I used the H380 not because it was the BEST choice for this caliber but because it's listed for my other rifles as well and I just started reloading and can't afford to buy 4 or 5 different rifle powders along with my pistol powders.  I've been trying to find 1 powder to suffice for each use.  I think I'll get IMR 4064 or 4895 next.
 Thanks again for all the info and keep it coming!  Here's a pic of the rifle.

[Westbound]

That is one sharp looking rifle.  Seeing pics like this of great military bolt guns make me curse being a lefty shooter!

[cwlongshot]

I was just down working on one!!

 I am sporterizing one for the wife. I was sold on going 257Roberts... but I'm being swayed to the 6.5X55.....

 Anyhow, I just cut the bolt handle off and am getting ready to weld on a spoon bolt. I really Like them, its also what I have on my Whelen. I drilled and tapped the receiver last week. Currently it is still 7.65 and will likely stay that for a while. At least I can still shoot it that way.
 
BTW, all my 1909's wore full legnth stocks, IIRC they where all considered carbines not rifles. But I'm not certain on that point.

Yours is very good looking and all that work is a big plus!! Not to mention the ammo and dies too!! Good deal.

CW

[galster69]

Longshot, I like the spoon type bolt handles.  Do you make them yourself or purchase them somewhere?  I have a 6.5 swede that I absolutely love and was thinking about building a custom mannlicher stock from a very nice piece of walnut I have in the shop and putting a spoon handle on it.  If it were me, I'd leave it at the 7.65 and buy a 6.5 swede.  I don't see many 7.65s around and chances are they will only get more scarce.  I think those of us that have them 10 to 20 years down the road will be glad that we didn't convert them.  Just my 2 cents worth.

[cwlongshot]

Longshot, I like the spoon type bolt handles.  Do you make them yourself or purchase them somewhere?  I have a 6.5 swede that I absolutely love and was thinking about building a custom mannlicher stock from a very nice piece of walnut I have in the shop and putting a spoon handle on it.  If it were me, I'd leave it at the 7.65 and buy a 6.5 swede.  I don't see many 7.65s around and chances are they will only get more scarce.  I think those of us that have them 10 to 20 years down the road will be glad that we didn't convert them.  Just my 2 cents worth.

I have two of them as well!!   But they (At least in my opinion) are better collectors than the 1909's. Besides, this '09 is already all chopped up.  I have been "working" on it for YEARS!!! 

 I have a '38 carbine and a '96 Rifle in swedes. Beautifully built for a military rifle!! My rifle is a Gustaf <SP> and the carbine a Husqvarna. Both very clean and all matching. I even have a bayonet & a screw on flash hider for the Gustaf!!

CW

[cwlongshot]

Longshot, I like the spoon type bolt handles.  Do you make them yourself or purchase them somewhere?  I have a 6.5 swede that I absolutely love and was thinking about building a custom mannlicher stock from a very nice piece of walnut I have in the shop and putting a spoon handle on it.  If it were me, I'd leave it at the 7.65 and buy a 6.5 swede.  I don't see many 7.65s around and chances are they will only get more scarce.  I think those of us that have them 10 to 20 years down the road will be glad that we didn't convert them.  Just my 2 cents worth.

 I just finished welding and fitting that bolt handle on the 1909 Mauser and though you may like a look see...

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,165139.new.html#new

CW

[galster69]

Nice job longshot!  Looks like it's going to be pretty nice.  Since you've already started the conversion process I love the 6.5 X 55 swiss sound.  I have one and it's such a sweet shooting round.  Whatever you choose...I'm sure it'll be a fantastic looking and shooting rifle!

[cwlongshot]

Thank you.

 I have a stock and a timney dlx trigger coming. In the next couple months I'll decide on caliber and order the barrel.

 Your right, either one will fit the bill. I don't have dies for either. But I do have brass for the 257. I have a good supply of bullets for each. Slightly better selection for the 25. Recoil will be similar. I feel performance on game will go to the Swede.

I don't know.. decisions decisions...

CW