Author Topic: Never Shot a Gun! (Read 4357 times)

BBF · « **Reply #60 on:** February 18, 2009, 07:27:54 AM »

If this whole learning to shoot business is for home defense purpose only, I suggest a Defender 20 gauge pump. Even shaky, scared shitless and sweating hands should work. IMO

rparsons934 · « **Reply #61 on:** February 18, 2009, 07:50:33 AM »

Quote from: BBF on February 18, 2009, 07:27:54 AM

If this whole learning to shoot business is for home defense purpose only, I suggest a Defender 20 gauge pump. Even shaky, scared shitless and sweating hands should work. IMO

Must say I agree. No matter how big of balls the intruder or attacker has a shottie in the face is a scary thing. Not much more than point and shoot in the home defense department. But that's if you are able to squeeze the trigger. On the contrary Why would you not if there is a person in your home who shouldn't be there.

Skunk · « **Reply #62 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:01:21 AM »

I have to agree with shotgunner fans. Great choice for guarding the door or anything up close a personal.

BBF · « **Reply #63 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:07:03 AM »

As much as I would favor a shotgun for this I must consider whether there are children around that could have access to the shotgun. It is easier to hide away a handgun from curious eyes and hands. Putting that shotgun in a safe place but ready for use will take some serious thought.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #64 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:17:26 AM »

its harder for a lone child to shoot themselves with a long gun . If you think that you can hide anything from a child you are dreaming . lock it up and you might be safe but not a 100%. Teach your child to shoot , let them handle a gun with you present when they want to . They have no reason to sneak a peak then . Hide it and make it taboo and they will do what it takes to get it just like sex good education goes a long way toward them making the right choices in life .

rparsons934 · « **Reply #65 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:24:07 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 18, 2009, 08:17:26 AM

its harder for a lone child to shoot themselves with a long gun . If you think that you can hide anything from a child you are dreaming . lock it up and you might be safe but not a 100%. Teach your child to shoot , let them handle a gun with you present when they want to . They have no reason to sneak a peak then . Hide it and make it taboo and they will do what it takes to get it just like sex good education goes a long way toward them making the right choices in life .

Very Well put shootall. I think education is important. And if your child wants to play with it it is because they see you with it or know you have it. Rember kids want to be like there parents at first anyway. SO let them shoot it and educacate them on the weapon.

Graybeard · « **Reply #66 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:24:55 AM »

I have to admit I don't have a clue what a Defender 20 gauge pump is but it does conjure up images of a pistol gripped shotgun in my mind.

Have any of you folks recommending shotguns as the be all end all of self defense ever put in any time shooting one? I've been a wingshooter most of my life and have shot many tens of thousands of rounds in competition using shotguns and hundreds of thousands in practice. Hitting up close with a shotgun is not nearly so easy as you guys seem to think it is and shooting one without a proper butt stock and only a pistol grip is a sure fire way to miss everything you actually want to hit.

At inside the home ranges a shotgun pattern even from a wide open cylinder bore is likely to be at most a couple inches. That does NOT increase the chances of a hit by much if any. A long gun in tight quarters can be difficult to manuever and is more easily taken away than a short gun as well.

I do agree a shotgun can be a good home defense tool for many reasons but it is not a cure all for folks who haven't gained a great deal of experience shooting it. Regardless of what weapon you chose to defend yourself if you don't shoot it enough to become intimate with it then it's gonna let you down if/when the time comes you need it.

In Matt and Heather's situation paying for instruction by a professional just ain't gonna happen. The money is not there. I'm not even aware of any real "professional" training available within 100 miles of here anyway so travel time and expense would have to be added to a budget already strained to the breaking point.

Add to it the complication of three young boys who have to be kept well away from the training area and you have yet another problem to deal with. Come nice weather perhaps they'll make it over and we can work at it on my range. As Matt said he has discussed it with me previously and I've agreed. I can say without equivocation tho Matt is NOT a teacher he does not have the patience to teach anyone anything. If he knows how to do it he thinks everyone else should also. I've experienced his "great patience in teaching me some things about computers".

I've trained lots of folks to shoot and to shoot better who already knew how to shoot but not how to actually make their shots go where they should. I'm not a self defense expert but am a pretty damn good shot and know how to help others become good shots. Developing that "killer instinct" necessary to actually pull the trigger on a human is something I have no clue how to teach. I've not even proven yet that I have it myself and hope I never have to find out. I suspect tho should that time come I'll do what I do best put bullets where they do the most good. I've been doing it for close to 55 years now.

rparsons934 · « **Reply #67 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:35:02 AM »

With the pistol grip I agree its hard to control. If you were to go "tactical" mines well get a AR style stock. But i would recommend a stock that will sit nicely in your shoulder. Also I'm new to shotguns. At the range I go to its 75 yards. It is an indoor range. For me any way i can hit the head, stomach, and heart. If its a bulls eye style target i hit the center more often than not. I'm by no means probably as good a shot as you GB but it isn't hard to hit a target up close with a shot gun. I took my friend to fire his first gun ever. He shot my 12Ga. And he as well as me was hitting all the major parts on the target. Mind you the target was 75 yards away. But up close IMO its easier. Now a Handgun is harder to aim and hit with. As for the "killer instinct i am sure with there being 3 boys the motherly instinct would kick in. We all know that instinct and that is protect under any means necessary.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #68 on:** February 18, 2009, 08:54:59 AM »

the pistol grip seems ok at pistol distance , I shoot one quite often for pratice . That said it might not be the best choice for everyone . The short bbl shotgun offers better control than a hand gun for some . it is easier to shoot from the hip as the bbl can be indexed ( often instructors tell students to place white tape near the muzzle as a ref point . others tie a white rag on the end of the bbl. In a home invasion one needs to stop the attacker and i know of no hand gun that will do it better than a load of buck shot . GB pointed that out as the pattern is tight at room distance and an ounce of lead or more at 1200 fps is alot to catch .
That said the handgun offers alot also as it would be hard to escort children out of harms way or support an elderly person while working a pump gun .
guess you should have both .
With either you better know where your shot is going as you can't miss fast enough to win a fight .

Graybeard · « **Reply #69 on:** February 18, 2009, 09:12:08 AM »

Quote from: rparsons934 on February 18, 2009, 08:35:02 AM

With the pistol grip I agree its hard to control. If you were to go "tactical" mines well get a AR style stock. But i would recommend a stock that will sit nicely in your shoulder. Also I'm new to shotguns. At the range I go to its 75 yards. It is an indoor range. For me any way i can hit the head, stomach, and heart. If its a bulls eye style target i hit the center more often than not. I'm by no means probably as good a shot as you GB but it isn't hard to hit a target up close with a shot gun. I took my friend to fire his first gun ever. He shot my 12Ga. And he as well as me was hitting all the major parts on the target. Mind you the target was 75 yards away. But up close IMO its easier. Now a Handgun is harder to aim and hit with. As for the "killer instinct i am sure with there being 3 boys the motherly instinct would kick in. We all know that instinct and that is protect under any means necessary.

You are talking about shooting stationary targets and likely from rested positions. Human targets in your home where they are NOT supposed to be their to do you harm or take your things for themselves are NOT stationary targets nor are you using a rested position and there is a GREAT URGENCY and panic mode in operation that is not at the range. You must practice what is a realisitic comparison to real world potential events if it is to help.

Get out on a skeet range and try to hit the targets at station eight. If you really want to see what it might be like to shoot at someone in the room with you with that shotgun then walk up half way to the target house and try to hit the station eight targets. Even us old farts who've been doing it almost forever and who have shot lots of 100 straights often miss it.

Slow fire aimed and rested range sessions are not even remotely like real world life or death situations. Thinking they are is what gets folks killed.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #70 on:** February 18, 2009, 09:35:56 AM »

GB we do shoot moving targets with them for pratice . We use a ground trap and a hand trap to mix it up . guess i should have gone into more detail . Station 8 would be a challenge for sure , but like all skeet it is a repeatable shot so it could be worked out . the way we do it is the shooter has no idea where the target will go just as in real life .
As far as real life i have had my home invaded twice while i was home and 1 more time when my wife and kids were there and once when my 12 year old was home alone .
I hope we can agree to disagree if your experince has been different than mine .

rparsons934 · « **Reply #71 on:** February 18, 2009, 09:54:08 AM »

I agree with you grey beard that it is diffrent. However I am pretty sure if some one is to break in my home and I'm there there not leaving unless its in a bag. Or I'm in the bag. I have a good friend that never took a homedefense class. He was in a life or death situation and you know what happend. Adrenaline. He blacked out. What happend to him was it was his mothers birthday. He took her to a bar down town to celebrate. They were leaving when they seen that there car was broken into. They got in the car to leave the area. Little did they know there was some body inside on the back floor. My friend was pistol whipped which he received 7 stitches for. But that was a little boo boo compared to what happend next. He was thrown in the trunk and the gun was then turned on his mother. The attacker said drive. He took her down the street to some old railroad tracks. He then started to to bad things to her. I wont go into detail. But my friend heard his mothers screams and kicked his way out of the car. He then ran down the tracks to save his mother. He was shot 2 time 1 in the arm and one right next to the heart. Yes the heart there is still a bullet is still in there today because if they take it out it can kill him. He then wrestled with the guy ultimately ripping his eye out. The attacker ran. My friend shot 2 times and has the back of his head cracked open runs up a hill to call 911. He doesn't even mention his wounds only his mothers. The point I'm trying to make is that when loved ones are in danger it is a diffrent world. He knew no martial arts and he is a little guy. I mean tiny. Yet he managed to take an attacker with a gun. It was the Adrenalin that kept him alive and his mother 2. In a home situation if you even have time to react then chances are instinct or Adrenalin will kick in. Even for police officers who deal with that kind of stuff daily. When its your family its a whole diffrent ball game. SO hitting a stationary target vs moving IMO is no diffrent when you arn't thinking clear. Its point and shoot if you even get the time to. And for a little or no experienced person i would rec comend a shot gun because you have a better chance of hitting that person under those EXTREAM circumstances.

edited spelling. I can be bad at it some time.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #72 on:** February 18, 2009, 10:12:17 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 18, 2009, 09:35:56 AM

GB we do shoot moving targets with them for pratice . We use a ground trap and a hand trap to mix it up . guess i should have gone into more detail . Station 8 would be a challenge for sure , but like all skeet it is a repeatable shot so it could be worked out . the way we do it is the shooter has no idea where the target will go just as in real life .
As far as real life i have had my home invaded twice while i was home and 1 more time when my wife and kids were there and once when my 12 year old was home alone .
I hope we can agree to disagree if your experince has been different than mine .

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You still live there after that? I would the first time was just bad luck and after the second time I would have moved to a better neighborhood. Dale

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #73 on:** February 18, 2009, 10:24:55 AM »

first time we did move , the next 3 happened with in a few months of each other and again we moved but it took time to build a new home . what happened was gangs moved in almost over night . The whole area has been improving the last 2 years as in the city the murder rate has dropped from 200+ to under 50 in 2008 . Don't konw how many shootings are down but seems better . Hope this depression dosen't ruin it .

Casull · « **Reply #74 on:** February 18, 2009, 11:20:32 AM »

GB is right on point. We are talking about spitting distances here (10 to 15 FEET). At those distances, the shot has barely begun to leave the shot cup, so we're talking about a "group" of maybe an inch or so. I'd say that at ten feet, it would be much easier to hit someone with a handgun (pretty much like pointing your finger), than it would be to hit them with a shotgun shot from the hip. Rparsons, I'm guessing that your indoor range is 75 FEET and not 75 YARDS, and with a shotgun, it's easier to hit the target at 75 feet than it is at 10 feet (think 2 1/2 foot pattern rather than an inch or two).

williamlayton · « **Reply #75 on:** February 18, 2009, 12:50:59 PM »

What we are talking about is basic weapons knowledge.
The front end from the rear. What a safety is, where it is and how to manipulate it and when. How to cock, where the trigger is and how to operate it. If it is a semi-auto, then the basics.
How too hold a pistol correctly and safely. How to aim it. How to shoot it safely.
Then we start teaching the finer points and training to be a good shot.
The first session should last about two hours and can be done at the kitchen table.
The next session should be about an hour and include a LOT of dry fireing.
The next session should be about an hour and iclude some shooting but a lot of dry fireing.
The next session should include shooting and reloading (safely).
Now you are on your way.
Little steps first.
Blessings

mechanic · « **Reply #76 on:** February 18, 2009, 01:18:02 PM »

Like most things, there are differing opinions on the best weapon. Truthfully, that depends on the shooter. The best one is the one the shooter can fire without thinking about it, and is comfortable with. I choose a shotgun for home defense, because I am very comfortable with it. My wife also shoots it well. As far as distance, at a distance of exactly 15 feet, my old Smith and Wesson 12 ga. will spread buckshot over a 6-8 inch area. At 50 feet, you would be lucky if many of them stayed on target. I load my shells without shotcups, and with felt wads, and a low charge of powder.........thats all I use them for.

I gave one of my daughters a revolver that she was comfortable with. My other daughter I discouraged from owning a gun...I think in her hands it would be used against her, because she would hesitate too long.
Of course thats all subjective, because I don't really know what I would do, just what I THINK I would do.

mirage1988 · « **Reply #77 on:** February 18, 2009, 01:59:42 PM »

My wife told me she liked to hunt before we got married. We were sitting out on the deck at her dads house (after we got married) and a squirrel had the guts to show itself out in the woods. Paulie- (my father-in law)- grabs the 22 (open sights) hands it to me. I say- no thanks- I don't eat squirrels. He hands it to my now wife, and she just rolls it. He didn't say anything- just looks at me. I'm just in awe- 50 yard+ shot on a squirrel-open sights-22? Her count- 2 turkeys in 2 years- mine 0 turkeys in 2 years. Did I mention- I took her to archery leagues with me once? She shot better than me there too. I also let her catch the big ones when we go fishing. She is fine with me going to deer camp with the boys, and going to missouri for rifle opener down there. I'm fine with her coaching the girls hockey team at her high school from october thru feb.

Sorry- I got side tracked:
-You should learn how to shoot!
-No-Matt should not be the one teaching you how to shoot!

mirage1988 · « **Reply #78 on:** February 18, 2009, 03:13:14 PM »

My wife and I got my father-in law one of those digital picture frames for christmas- she loaded it up with all of his pictures. He said it was pretty cool, but it needs a few more pictures- my wifes first deer kill, and my first bear.

Matt · « **Reply #79 on:** February 18, 2009, 03:17:49 PM »

As GB said I am not a good teacher... and for the reasons he said... but that does not mean I cant do it or wont do it.

As to me taking a course I see no need in it as I am 1 for 1 so far and I have no problem what so ever pulling the trigger on another person if I feel that person is a threat... been there done that... and still sleep quite sound...

As to the best gun for home... one that works and that the owner is comfortable is what I think matters. Of course it has to have enough stopping power to bring an intruder down on the first shot.

Just because I am not an avid hunter or shooter does not mean I don't know how to... having been around guns all my life and shooting since I was 7 or 8 so I think I have a good grasp of what it takes... and having shot a man before I know what that takes... I also know that if Heather gets a gun in her hand she will be smart enough to figure out how to aim and pull the trigger... and depending on what the boom and recoil is like after that will determine if she does it again I am sure...

I have no doubt that she can do it... as I said before it is a scheduling issue and nothing more...

Matt

45-70.gov · « **Reply #80 on:** February 18, 2009, 03:38:29 PM »

Quote from: Casull on February 17, 2009, 04:36:48 PM

Randy and 45-70, shooting a double action revolver should be, and is, as safe as shooting a double action auto (point and squeeze). Plus any decent revolver will have a better double action pull. 45-70, if the instructor is having her shoot single action for accuracy, he's not doing his job of teaching her to shoot defensively.

not every one gets proffessional training
a DAO won't allow them to get bad habbits like i once had
i twice held a man at gun point
with a shaky hand and hammer back and hare trigger

but i was very good single action [ask dalescarpentry how far i could consistently hit armadillos]
that was how i shot all the time
so when i captured this guy and when i had to stop a personal attack
i needlessly created a dangerous situation
i handled the gun as i trained

DAO auto is ok but revolver is better.....to me
shot gun is a poor choise unless the bad guys made an appointment
aluminum smith will be with you at all times [14 ounces]

mirage1988 · « **Reply #81 on:** February 18, 2009, 03:41:15 PM »

Matt-
You have chastized me plenty for opposing your views, but I am going against you again on this one. If she wants to learn how to shoot, give her permission, if you don't, she will do it without you knowing. Almost all gun accidents involve "unloaded" guns and/or people "cleaning" guns. If you give her "permission" to learn gun handling and even shooting lessons from her father-in-law, she will be much safer than the kid that picks up the gun whose parent neglected to teach their kid about guns.
I have been around guns since I can remember, and have NEVER pointed a gun at something I haven't intended to shoot, I watch my MUZZLE, and TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT WAS LOADED!

I would not expect my wife to figure it out on her own!

Matt · « **Reply #82 on:** February 18, 2009, 03:53:59 PM »

Quote from: mirage1988 on February 18, 2009, 03:41:15 PM

Matt-
You have chastized me plenty for opposing your views, but I am going against you again on this one. If she wants to learn how to shoot, give her permission, if you don't, she will do it without you knowing. Almost all gun accidents involve "unloaded" guns and/or people "cleaning" guns. If you give her "permission" to learn gun handling and even shooting lessons from her father-in-law, she will be much safer than the kid that picks up the gun whose parent neglected to teach their kid about guns.
I have been around guns since I can remember, and have NEVER pointed a gun at something I haven't intended to shoot, I watch my MUZZLE, and TREAT EVERY GUN AS IF IT WAS LOADED!

I would not expect my wife to figure it out on her own!

Whats with you dude... you like trying to bust my balls

Not one single time have I ever said I would not teach her... or that she cant get GB to teach her or anyone else she wants to teach her for that matter... and if you would read my other posts you would see that I mentioned that SAFE use of the gun is a must...

Matt

45-70.gov · « **Reply #83 on:** February 18, 2009, 03:59:08 PM »

can you beleive him??

why do you think heather has come to us to back her up?

$:-\$

mirage1988 · « **Reply #84 on:** February 18, 2009, 04:12:51 PM »

Not tryin to bust your balls at all-
My wife shoots way better than me, I have no problem with that, I can shoot pretty decent. It only makes me feel better that wtshtf, I can depend on some backup.

Heather · « **Reply #85 on:** February 18, 2009, 05:07:45 PM »

Well folks I will have to say phase one of my mission to learn to shoot has been complete. Matt has promised to take me out to GB's this weekend weather permitting! I would like to thank all of you for your support, advice, and opinions.

When I started this topic I wasn't asking for Matt's permission. I was just utilizing this great network of support I knew I would have here at GBO to try and give teaching me to shoot a boost on Matt's to do list. Matt has so many things that he has to do everyday that sometimes he improperly prioritizes things. I wanted help in reminding him how important it may be for our family that I know how to use a weapon when necessary.

I knew if enough of you were nagging him telling him I needed to learn to shoot that he would make it a priority to schedule a time we could go. Matt is a procrastinator, but if you know him well enough he can be motivated.

Heather

mirage1988 · « **Reply #86 on:** February 18, 2009, 05:11:10 PM »

Congrats-
-Just don't tell him how you did-lol

Matt · « **Reply #87 on:** February 18, 2009, 05:27:07 PM »

you know what... y'all just go ahead and pick on me then... hell at least your leaving someone else alone... so who ever that someone else may be enjoy your break.

Yes weather permitting I am going to take Heather to GB's house so we can get her at least hitting the broad side of a barn... just so long as it is not GB's barn... seeing as it is full of my stuff and all ya know...

Matt

williamlayton · « **Reply #88 on:** February 18, 2009, 09:44:31 PM »

'S.
Blessings

myronman3 · « **Reply #89 on:** February 19, 2009, 04:54:48 AM »

makes me glad my wife doesnt have an account here at g.b.o.. i hear it enough around the house, if'n i had to come here and get hen pecked that might just be too much.

Poll

Do you think Matt should teach me to shoot?

Author Topic: Never Shot a Gun! (Read 4357 times)