Author Topic: Long range optics (Read 1718 times)

JimFromTN · « **on:** February 18, 2009, 11:55:25 AM »

I am becomming more interested in long range shooting. I am wanting to put a rifle together with some long range optics with a mildot reticle and target turrets. I was looking at the new monarch line of scopes. They now have the option of adding target turrets. I am considering getting a nikon monarch 4-16x42 with the mildot reticle and adding the target turrets. The monarch has a 1 inch tube. Will there be enough range of adjustment to handle a 600 plus yd shot or should I be looking at something with a 30 mm tube?

JustaShooter · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2009, 04:19:08 PM »

The Nikon Monarch 4-16x42 Side Focus only has 40MOA internal adjustment according to their web site, and a .308 BTHP Match bullet at 2750fps zeroed at 100yds will impact about 95" low.

So, if you are near the center of the adjustment with a 100yd zero you have 20 MOA left to work with, or 120" at 600 yds. That will get you there, but not a lot of room to spare. If you use 5 MOA to get to 100 and only have 15moa left, you are only able to get 90" of elevation and will fall short. OTOH, if you go -5 MOA from center of adjustment to get zeroed at 100 and have 25 MOA left you might make it out to 700yds.

Slow the same bullet down to 2600 fps and you will have nearly 108" of drop at 600 from the same 100 yard zero...

As you can see, a lot depends on the rifle and mounts and what cartridge you will use. That said, the Monarch's 40 MOA of adjustment looks a bit small for long distance shooting.

Just a Shooter

JimFromTN · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2009, 04:03:43 AM »

Thanks for the reply. I had a feeling that it would be right on the edge and 600 yds would probably be about its max.

Skunk · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2009, 04:24:42 AM »

Quote from: JimFromTN on February 19, 2009, 04:03:43 AM

Thanks for the reply. I had a feeling that it would be right on the edge and 600 yds would probably be about its max.

But, if you got a one piece mount with 15-20 moa built into it, it appears you would have plenty of adjustment. Plus, if you used the Burris Signature Zee Rings and zeroed the scope at 100 or 200 yards using only the offset rings in addition to a 20 moa offset base, it looks like you would have adjustment to spare - maybe even out to 1000 yards(?).

95Road King · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2009, 11:37:48 AM »

How much ya wanna spend??? "NightForce" scope's have a new one out. It's a 6-60-50 I think?? Yes, 60 power!!! Price, around $2000.00. Yes two thousand!!! Buddy of mine priced one. He's still looking.LOL

JimFromTN · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2009, 03:26:35 AM »

Actually, the reason for the monarch solution was because I would be able to get the scope and the Turrets for around $400. I guess my next cheapest option would be the Nikon Monarch X which is about double that.

Skunk · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2009, 03:46:25 AM »

Quote from: JimFromTN on February 20, 2009, 03:26:35 AM

Actually, the reason for the monarch solution was because I would be able to get the scope and the Turrets for around $400. I guess my next cheapest option would be the Nikon Monarch X which is about double that.

I have the new Monarch 5 X 20 X 44 on my .223 Remington Tactical and they (Monarchs) are excellent scopes for their price range. Mine came with the two extra sets of turrets. I put the tall target turrets on the 5 X 20. I want the 4 X 16 W/Mil-Dots, like the one you're interested in, for my CZ 6.5 Swede. I'll use the other set of tall turrets on that scope. I highly recommend the new Monarchs. They are priced correctly, are high quality, have great glass, side focus, easy to adjust, hold zero with the best, and are just overall an excellent buy. I say go for the Monarch and just get a 15-20 moa base, and Signature Zee Rings.

JimFromTN · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2009, 10:41:29 AM »

I have a monarch gold and love it. Ever since the new monarchs came out, I have been looking for reasons to buy one.

Who makes the 15-20 moa base?

Skunk · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2009, 01:26:05 PM »

Jim,

EGW, Warne, Ken Farrell, Inc., Millet, and Badger Ordnance, just to name a few, all make one piece bases with different degrees of moa built in. For lower priced models, I'd check with EGW and Millet. Mid-range price - Warne and Farrel. High end - Badger.

EDIT: fixed a word (changed "put" to "with").

teddy12b · « **Reply #9 on:** March 06, 2009, 06:21:32 AM »

Nothing wrong with Nikon scopes, I'm a big fan. I'd like to also throw a few more options out there for you to consider.

The Millett LRS has 140 MOA of adjustment built into the scope and has the mil dot reticle. If nothing else you might like reading about it.

Another option is using either the burris ballistic plex or the nikon BDC (bullet drop compensator). I've been shooting long range now for just over a year now. I've mostly using nikon buckmasters from 100 - 1000 yards. I recently put a burris 2-7 with ballistic plex on a 223 and talk about making long range shooting easy!

On my hunting rifles I will be using burris fullfield II's with ballist plex reticles. After a year of adjusting the scope for elevation to hit at different distance it was so nice and convenient to just use the hold over marks and hit targets accurately out to 500 yards with a 223. I'm going to buy a 3-9 and put it on my 30-30 just for giggles.

Skunk · « **Reply #10 on:** March 06, 2009, 06:49:57 AM »

All viable solutions Teddy. I have the 3-9 Fullfield II w/ballistic plex on my 35 Whelen and it works great.

teddy12b · « **Reply #11 on:** March 06, 2009, 07:08:06 AM »

Quote from: Skunk on March 06, 2009, 06:49:57 AM

All viable solutions Teddy. I have the 3-9 Fullfield II w/ballistic plex on my 35 Whelen and it works great.

How far out do you get with that scope on your 35?

There are so many viable solutions out there right now I just wanted to offer a few that I new of. I wish would have bought a ballistic plex a year ago, but I didn't. Last time at the range I was hitting the small plates at 500 yards as fast as I could pull the trigger using only the holdover points. I couldn't believe how easy it was to use. The ballistic plex is great for 500 yards and under.

I should have mentioned this earlier, but I have a nikon omega BDC scope on a muzzloader. I haven't really put in the time with it yet, but I would have to say I like the ballistic plex a little bit better. The BDC just has a lot of things going on in such a small place for my eyes to see as clearly as I'd like to.

sscoyote · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2009, 07:21:18 PM »

Everybody's jumped into the BDC ballistic reticle wagon. Bushnell used to have a pretty decent tree-type reticle based on a 3 MOA system, and it looked great to me, but they don't offer it manymore--they've gone the BDC ballistic reticle like all the others. Oh well! I use a bunch of different ballistic , rangefinding, and cutom reticles for long-range and the plex is the simplest followed by the Leupold VX-II long-range reticles and Burris Ballistic Plex.

diggler1833 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2009, 02:14:58 AM »

Guess I'll make my first post here. Glad to see that you are getting interested in long range shooting. I for one am not the biggest fan in holding over, although it can be done with a Mildot reticle, it is a little less precise to use that over a hold-over reticle. If you look at what the tactical/long range crowd are doing more often than not it is dialing in the adjustment. There are a boatload of how-to's on that subject, just do an internet search. You stated you wanted target turrets on your new scope, what better use to put them too than that anyway?

Nikon makes some pretty decent glass. I've heard more than a couple of rumors about their CS lately. The other thing about Nikon is that most of their scopes are rather limited in internal adjustment. In their Monarch line you really have to drop down to the 3-12x to get enough internal elevation adjustment to get you out to any real long range distance. The Monarch Gold has enough, but maxes out at 10x and the Monarch X 2.5-10x is in the same boat. Not that 10x isn't enough at 600yds because it is. A lot of shooters though prefer more magnification at that range. With an angled scope base with 20MOA of adjustment you are taking out the possibility of a 100yd zero with the entire line above 4-16x, and even that one you have to be dead on (40MOA of internal adjustment).

You never included a budget of what you were looking to spend or keep it under. IMO if you are in the area of the Monarch's range of $400-650 depending on the model you might want to look into a couple of other scopes. I've got the chance to look through, and am now on the waiting list for one of the new Sightron SIII's the 6-24x50mm with mildot and target turrets and 100MOA of internal elevation adjustment. The glass is every bit as clear (maybe even better) as the leupy Mark 4, but the SIII runs about $790 street price. If you can't afford that then there is the Bushnell 6500 2.5-16x42mm at around $550 with the mildot again and 80MOA of adjustment. It is a toss-up on glass quality between the 6500 and Monarch, but I doubt you will be disappointed. The only bitches and complaints I've heard about Bushnell are a couple about CS, just like the Nikon's. Want to spend less than that? If you are just punching paper or ringing steel the $300 Super Sniper is a good optic for the money, I've owned the 16x SS, and had no complaints.

Which ever way you end up going good luck, hopefully I've been able to help a bit.

teddy12b · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2009, 04:04:51 AM »

Quote from: diggler1833 on March 18, 2009, 02:14:58 AM

The other thing about Nikon is that most of their scopes are rather limited in internal adjustment.

With an angled scope base with 20MOA of adjustment you are taking out the possibility of a 100yd zero with the entire line above 4-16x, and even that one you have to be dead on (40MOA of internal adjustment).

For whatever this is worth, on my 30-06 I have a 20 moa rail and I have used nikon buckmasters in both 4.5-14 & 6-18. With that 20 MOA rail I can still zero at 100 yards, and have about 10 MOA left in the scope after my 1000 yard adjustment.

On nikon's website there is the monarch, monarch gold, & monarch X. There are different models in those catagories with different max internal MOA adjustments. It gets a little confusign talking about the monarch without the specific model #.

Hope this helps a little more.

JimFromTN · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2009, 04:50:36 AM »

I am wanting to get into learning about the use of target turrets. I have done some research on the internet. I have a video by Darrel Holland and one by David Tubbs on long range shooting that go briefly into it. I think they both have put out dedicated videos for the use of target turrets which I may rent off of smartflix. There is also a shooting school not too far from me that has weekend 1 day and 2 day classes that are very reasonable ($125 a day). I think they shoot out to 600 yds on the one day and 800 yds on the 2 day. The most expensive part is comming up with the 150rds of ammunition a day.

I was trying to keep my budget down to around $450. I have found the Monarch 4-16 for $369 with free shipping and I can get the turrets for around $70.

I have a monarch gold 2.5-10 and a sightron SIII 1.5-6 as well as an SII 1.5-6 and they are all great scopes. The Monarch X now comes in 4-16x50 as well but they run close to $800 which is a bit out of my budget. If I end up putting the purchase off long enough to save up for the better scope, I will definately take the Sightron SIII into consideration.

teddy12b · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2009, 05:57:01 AM »

Make sure you look up the specs before buying a monarch. Some of the monarch models only had 30 moa and another one I saw only had 20 moa. That won't get you out to 800 without a base.

diggler1833 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2009, 03:19:04 PM »

Quote from: teddy12b on March 18, 2009, 04:04:51 AM

Quote from: diggler1833 on March 18, 2009, 02:14:58 AM
The other thing about Nikon is that most of their scopes are rather limited in internal adjustment.

With an angled scope base with 20MOA of adjustment you are taking out the possibility of a 100yd zero with the entire line above 4-16x, and even that one you have to be dead on (40MOA of internal adjustment).

For whatever this is worth, on my 30-06 I have a 20 moa rail and I have used nikon buckmasters in both 4.5-14 & 6-18. With that 20 MOA rail I can still zero at 100 yards, and have about 10 MOA left in the scope after my 1000 yard adjustment.

On nikon's website there is the monarch, monarch gold, & monarch X. There are different models in those catagories with different max internal MOA adjustments. It gets a little confusign talking about the monarch without the specific model #.

Hope this helps a little more.

You are absoluetly right, both the 4.5-14x40 and 6-18x40 Buckmasters have an advertised internal adjustment of 50MOA leaving you theoretically (provided your bore/reciever/scope rail are concentric) 5MOA of internal adjustment after you mount the scope on a 20MOA rail. As well it would give you about 45MOA of usuable adjustment, more than enough to get your 30-06 to 1K (35MOA sounds about right, unless you were pushing the 155 Scenars hard). My reply to the original poster was in regards to the Monarch lines of Nikon, since that was what he was asking about. No harm no foul, just a misunderstanding I suppose.

sscoyote · « **Reply #18 on:** March 20, 2009, 06:00:56 PM »

Quote from: JimFromTN on March 18, 2009, 04:50:36 AM

I am wanting to get into learning about the use of target turrets. I have done some research on the internet. I have a video by Darrel Holland and one by David Tubbs on long range shooting that go briefly into it. I think they both have put out dedicated videos for the use of target turrets which I may rent off of smartflix. There is also a shooting school not too far from me that has weekend 1 day and 2 day classes that are very reasonable ($125 a day). I think they shoot out to 600 yds on the one day and 800 yds on the 2 day.

I would definitely suggest u go to that school, as they will probably condense your "tactical" education into a couple days. That will get u started. There is some stuff they probably won't teach u much of such as rangefinding with the reticle to the highest degree of accuracy, the application of a modification of the mil-ranging formula that defines downrange zeroing and rangefinding with any reticle/turret system. It'll get u started tho. I would also suggest attending any sniper-style roving field course matches that r in your area--depending on the type of L-R shooting u want to accomplish. There are a number of guys that r putting on L-R shooting schools, Darrell Holland and Shawn Carlock are a couple that r better known. Google their names and that'll get u some info.

Zachary · « **Reply #19 on:** March 23, 2009, 03:54:48 PM »

If you want the ultimate in a long range scope, then look no further than the Nightforce scopes. They are expensive, but more true long range shooting competitions (1,000 yards) use Nightforce scopes than about any other scope. I have a 5.5x-22x-56mm will mil-dots illuminated. What a scope! It is amazing! The only bad thing is that it weighs a ton (the aluminum tube in these scopes are double or more thicker than most scopes in the market. Plus, Nightforce uses heavy duty parts inside as well, thus the reason why it weighs so dang much). The good thing is, when it's not hunting season, you can use it as an anchor for your boat during fishing season. lol

Zachary