Author Topic: Swords in the reality of haveing to use one. (Read 2319 times)

phalanx · « **on:** February 19, 2009, 06:24:16 AM »

Some of you may have more knowledge on this than i do so please chime in here.
Ive alway felt that a Sword if it is a real one and not that Mall Ninja garbage is still a very useful weapon in Combat.
Years ago in my Re-enacting i used a Roman Glorieta as a Legionary.
Although i could see its advantage in close quarter Combat ,it was a weapon that was trailered to a type of Combat used in conjunction with a stylistic form of unity with others in close quarter ranks .
Also the Phylum was used with it to allow the Soldier to get into a close quarter situation.

Mid evil Broadswords are Heavy ,but i saw them used effectively and even better than a Katana ,but the guy useing it had years of training.
He is the guy the History channel uses when they study the art of edged combat.
He said that a large Broad sword is used for a man wearing Armor ,and if you slash and miss ,the recovery time could cost you your life if your opponent has a smaller lighter weapon.

The Katana is with out a doubt one of the finest Swords used in Combat ,but it takes years of practice learning a style that can be difficult to learn ,and if it comes up on say a ,Gim Sword ,Wielded by a trained user it is no better than any other sword,in fact it loses its advantage here.
He Proved this by going up against a Trained Samurai from Japan, and he used a Hand and a Half.
This guy was good ,He flipped it around like a Baton ,.the Samurai was so ineffective he even conceded the contest saying he had never seen that form of combat before.

The Specialist then said of course a sword is no match for a gun ,but in close quarters and within striking range a Sword is just as deadly, if not more than a gun ,and far superior to the bayonet.
What surprised me was this guys favorite Sword for self defense was a 1917 Cutlass.
He said its balance and power is designed to be used with one hand.
Sabers were for use on Horseback ,and not very effective even then from the blade lacking in weight.

He took a Cutlass donated to them by Cold Steel, and another guy came at him with a bayonet.
You didnt want to be the guy with the bayonet.

He even took on the Samurai again ,and this time he had the Samurai dispatched within 10 seconds.
Of course this guy was a Pro ,but he said the Cutlass was the Sword of his choice if push came to shove.
And it doesn't take a lot of experience to use effectively.
The Cold Steel Cutlass is a specialty item ,that is well made and not a toy.
It is better Balanced than any Katana , easy to carry ,and the covered hilt was used to cause sever blows to the heads of its opponents.

I would have never thought it ,but i guess those Pirates knew what they were doing .

rparsons934 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 19, 2009, 07:27:57 AM »

Swords are ofcourse a powerful weapon. They would be good for close combat. But on the contrary they cant be concealed. And like the guy said a sword is no match for a gun. But none the less a powerful weapon. It was used way before a gun was even a thought. But times change and chances are if you have to use it it will be to late. Guns are so common. But if an intruder came at you without a gun yes. But the chances of ever "Having" to use one is very unlikly. I have a few swords in my house, but when it comes to protecting that home I would take my 12GA. over a sword.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2009, 08:18:53 AM »

never have to reload one !

rparsons934 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2009, 08:21:16 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on February 19, 2009, 08:18:53 AM

never have to reload one !

Now this is true.

phalanx · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2009, 09:34:03 AM »

Swords have become a real problem in England sense the gun ban.
Intruders are taken by surprise in hallways and at 2 feet away they do not leave the Home alive.
Guns and Swords are not even in the same category to have them try and compete.
But in the dark ,in your own home ,in a crowed suburb.
The last thing a Gangsta is going to be thinking about is his Gizzard being ran through silently.
Personally i wouldn't want to run up on a Sword or a Gun.
But the two surviving Swords being used even today are the katana and the Cutlass.
In Country's where Guns all but do not exist ,Knives and Swords are responsible for most of the killings that happen there.
Either way ,i would rather have a Sword than a knife or a club.
In Japan the katana is banned ,but its responsible for most of its murders involving a weapon.
In England its the Cutlass ,also banned , and a close second is the Cross Bow.
Americans think Gun because of our History and Culture.
But anything is better than nothing ,and a Sword could gain you access to a gun.
Plus they are extremely difficult to Ban.
And Body Armor isn't any good against them , its like a guy said on a Knife Forum.
If a guy comes at you with a Sword ,you better have a Gun.

Joel · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2009, 03:34:53 AM »

I certainly can't see a sword on the modern battlefield. Rifles, pistols and grenades seem to do well. If you're not armed and in the middle of a firefight, your designation is probably "collateral damage". The Filipino's matched their swords and knives against Krags and .45's and died a lot.
I sell a lot of knives in the UK, and am aware of the ban, in Scotland anyway, against swords/cutlasses etc. In many areas a lockback knife is also banned. They also want all knives to have blades no longer that 2 inches and have only a rounded tip. Actually there are a large number of weapons there; owned and used by properly licensed individuals. I've noticed if you take away guns, then some sort of edged weapon is used. Take away those, and clubs and sharpened screwdrivers will show up(they already have). The fact is that people who are going to kill..kill. Take away one method and they are an adaptable lot. As usual, focusing on the tool is a waste of time.

phalanx · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2009, 05:27:01 AM »

I never implied a sword was a modern day combat weapon ,they are merely ceremonial if they show up at all.
Nether is a Compound Bow , but in its own league, they both will kill you grave yard dead , and they are better than a Rock or a screw driver.
A child can build a suitable sword or knife ,but not a gun per say.

But this brings us back to the reasoning that a lot of Countrys do not even use a bayonet anymore.
And the problem we had in Vietnam when our own F4 Phantoms didnt have guns on them any longer.

In both these instances this was corrected very quickly after finding out that something was missing ,that the Enemy still had and used.
The wars that America fights today we haven't ran into this ,YET ,but JANEs still ranks edged weapons as one of the top 5 killers used in Wars today.
Of that the machete is the most common weapon used ,mostly in Africa, South America & Mexico.

Believe it or not , Blunt Objects is #7 on not the Combat scale ,but the Murder records, and its followed by Kicking to death .
In underdeveloped Countrys a lot of Black Powder is still used ,and makeshift pistols still show up along with Flintlock Rifles.
Im just thinking a good Sword and a Fighting Knife may not be a bad thing to have in ones overall portfolio just in case.

Plus if you look at the Crime statistics in Japan ,the sword seems to be doing very well against armed Police ,and rival gangs.
You can have a gun and still be a Duffus , and if you do not see the sword until it is to late ,your dead and someone else has your gun.
It would be interesting to see the percentage of deaths by Edged Weapons VS Firearms used in the streets and crimes in DC.
I believe someone here once posted that knives and Edged Weapons out numbered Guns in the Death toll numbers in the over all US.

P.S. Thanks Guys for chiming in ,this is always an interesting subject ,and Joel it would be great if you could tell us what is the most popular things ordered in your trade.
My original intent was to get input on IF a sword was to be your last resort ,what type would you feel would be best for you ?
Of course i own Pistols and Rifles ,i was just wondering about what some of you thought about this subject.
In respect to like comparing an AR to an AK ,which Edged Weapon do you think would be better if you needed it?
Battle Axes are welcome !

Joel · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2009, 03:17:42 AM »

My two most popular knives are my #1, which is really just a slightly updated version of the old french trade knives, and one I call the Practical Applications Knife(PAK). That one is a spearpoint with some filing on the blade spine and butt which come in handy for some bushcraft tasks. I make a lot of different one's, just to provide different shapes to do the same thing. Keeps life from getting boring. As far as I go, a knife is still an outdoorsman's tool. The thickest steel I use is 1/8 inch and I stay away from combat and "tactical" knives. I figure there's enough people out there making killing things that I don't have to join in the blood bath.

phalanx · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2009, 05:52:51 PM »

Joel, i Finally bit the bullet and bought a Randal Fighting knife.
It was NIB ,and the Guy who had it never used it . He bought it in the 80s but never had the heart to dirty it up.
It is way to nice to scuff up , but i use things i buy.
Its the Carbon Steel blade ,and i like that better because its easy to keep sharp.
I notice that SOG seems to copy a lot of Randal's Blade Designs.

Joel · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2009, 02:50:39 AM »

When I was in 'Nam, my one buddy had a Randall #1. First time I really learned what the word "sharp". means. SOG copies everyone.

moxgrove · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2009, 06:08:18 AM »

I havea n old entrenching tool tahat is nicely sharpened just sitting against a wall. It was a gift from mt dad.
He said that in a pinch it was nastier than about anything else around when things got close. He hauled it around in Viet Nam and my Grandad had 1 in WW2 and said the same thing. I never used it for anything but digging, but with its heft and edges I would say it would be a nasty surprise.

Don Krag · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2009, 05:46:54 PM »

I'm kind of partial to the medieval seax with about a 18" blade.

I have a 13" bladed one in works right now and even it could do some devastating damage if need be. Everytime I make one and hold it...I get an urge to hit something with it.

phalanx · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2009, 07:08:09 PM »

These are also in a Huge demand.
http://www.americantomahawk.com/products/vtac.htm

The waiting list is 8 weeks ,the Millitary cant get enough of them.
Edged Weapons are makeing a big comeback.
In house Clearing they are difficult for the Enemy to take from you ,and they don't over penetrate and kill some family in another room.

If your buddy is jumped ,the Cutlass makes sure you can get the right man, instead of worrying if your going to hit your own guy.
Police are interested in the 1917 Cutlass ,they feel it is a Non ,to Very, Lethal alternative in Riot Control.
The intimidation is there ,and you can give a Perp a little prick ,or take him out.

The Navy has ordered 1500 of the 1917 ,mostly for use with the Coast Guard , in Boarding and operating in very dangerous and close quarters.
In Iraq the troops who have these ,say in a Mob situation the Rifles are at times not much help because the Mob knows you cant shoot them first.
The site of the 1917 makes them step back about 20 feet ,and the orders say do not shoot first ,it says nothing about do not stab or Slash first.

Don Krag · « **Reply #13 on:** February 24, 2009, 12:08:06 PM »

I would imagine a line of riot officers armed with swords would be pretty intimidating.

phalanx · « **Reply #14 on:** February 24, 2009, 08:20:39 PM »

Moire so than with clubs ,Iceland's Police turned in their Clubs and returned with Sabers.
The Rioters no longer attacked the Police.

deernhog · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2009, 02:29:27 AM »

I call BS on US police using cutlasses. It ain't going to happen. They have problems with the administration letting them carry knives on their sam browns much less a Sword. I had a video of a sword weilder in a police standoff they stood back relaxed and waited for common sense or stupid to take over. Where are you going to carry the thing. The Highlander carries his Katana magically hidden until the right moment then wa lah at arms.

Joel · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2009, 05:28:40 AM »

Quote from: Don Krag on February 24, 2009, 12:08:06 PM

I would imagine a line of riot officers armed with swords would be pretty intimidating.

That's putting it mildly. If cops show up at peaceful gathering carrying lethal weapons such as sabre's(just pink them, my butt), then we've gone from a democracy to a dictatorship and it'll be time to do something. There are rifle butts, batons, gas and non-lethal(mostly) bullets already being used. As far house clearing goes, I'd rather trade in the weight of my sword/cutlass for a couple more magazines or grenades(or flash bangs). If I'm trying to clear a house of known, armed insurgents/terrorists what do I do, wait until they're out of ammo? They'd come in handy for clearing houses of unarmed civilians though.

deernhog · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2009, 07:21:54 AM »

I have 20 + years of LE and I had to have my knife(push Dagger ) concealed on my off gun side behind the mag pouches. It had polished blk micarta handles and blended with the clarino belt gear so it was not noticeable. Rule was no obvious edged weapons on our person and that is in OKlahoma where people think we still fight Indian Wars. Also about getting the right man you obviously haven't been in a knockdown dragout, everybody gets hit kicked and punched even on the same team LOL. I even got hadcuffed by one of my patrolmen in a melee.

JeffG · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2009, 06:16:16 AM »

Quote

I call BS on US police using cutlasses.

Ah, yup. Can you imagine Amnesty Int'l. with that tidbit??

We had on officer TASER another in a knock down drag out nearby. I am sure there was some backslapping and brewsky buying to make up for it later,,,

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2009, 06:19:12 AM »

That said could anyone 20 years ago believe what we are seeing in this country today ? Politics , roits , weather , wealfare , illegals etc.
WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK IT ?

BBF · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2009, 09:53:26 AM »

I'd have a foil as an edged weapon although it isn't really edged. The point is mightier then the blade

billy_56081 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 07, 2009, 10:05:44 AM »

Here in MN there was an incident where a home invader was stopped with a sword. It involved someone missing fingers in the end and an easily identafiable suspect.

phalanx · « **Reply #22 on:** March 07, 2009, 10:03:31 PM »

A Guy on another forum was stationed in Iceland when the riot Police were meeting the mobs of angry people over the collapse of the Economy.
He was in the Air Force Stationed at Keflavik ,and he said they were restricted to the Base during all of this.
They watched it on the TV ,and the Police were not holding up well with the Batons against the People with Pipes and Clubs.
When the Cops switched to Blades ,the Rioters didn't even come near them.
If you look on those Sites where i posted the Tomahawks ,you will see where a lot of our Troops will not leave the Barracks without them.
The Hague says that Edged Weapon Warfare is on the rise all over , especially in Mexico and South America.

jlchucker · « **Reply #23 on:** March 08, 2009, 03:51:48 AM »

Quote from: phalanx on March 07, 2009, 10:03:31 PM

The Hague says that Edged Weapon Warfare is on the rise all over , especially in Mexico and South America.

Shades of Zorro!

billy_56081 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 08, 2009, 04:00:17 AM »

In the use of a sword in home defense I mentioned before, the home invader was armed with a gun i believe.

Joel · « **Reply #25 on:** March 08, 2009, 07:09:52 AM »

Since the drug cartels have decapitated a rather large number of the 6300 people, many innocent, they murdered last year, I suspect it would be listed as an increase in "blade warefare". I do believe many of those people were on their knees, not engaged in an equal duel. Still, they coulda used a sledge hammer instead. Nice folks; brave too.

pastorp · « **Reply #26 on:** March 20, 2009, 07:08:03 AM »

Shootall, If I remember right 20 years ago we were experiencing all those things. So thunk-it.

For home defense I would rather have a baseball bat than a saber. JMO But as long as I can have a gun thats what I'll use. I'm too old and fat to close with and oponent anymore.

Regards,

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #27 on:** March 20, 2009, 08:11:09 AM »

not like today .

pastorp · « **Reply #28 on:** March 20, 2009, 04:30:53 PM »

You don't remember the hot summers of the 80s? The Watts riouts. We even had some in Tampa just across the bay from where I grew up.

How old are you anyway? You must be a young pup not to remember all that.

Regards,

deernhog · « **Reply #29 on:** March 21, 2009, 01:06:54 AM »

I'm like Quigley in the movie "I said I didn't have much use for one, I didn't say I couldn't use one." Two guys in a hallway with swords would be like a food processer. Ouch