Author Topic: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe  (Read 18904 times)

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Offline bikerbeans

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CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« on: February 20, 2009, 01:54:36 PM »
Randy Wakeman has many articles that question the safety of all CVA muzzleloaders.  I have found reference to a few lawsuits involving CVA accidents but it is hard to tell if this is an old problem or ongoing problem.  Please advise, as I have a 2001 model CVA Staghorn 50 cal that I really like but not sure if I want to continue shooting it.

thanks
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Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2009, 03:16:04 PM »
here we go again
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2009, 04:34:23 PM »
RW is well, lets not get into that. Ask RW about the early savage muzzleloaders blowing up and he will call you a liar while hes girlie slapping you.

the recall involves 1995 and 1996 inlines. You can find this on the CVA website.

In the mean time take a look at what Mike Bellm has to say about CVA's new Bergara barrels.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=455

Read the News letter,
Last night curiosity got the best of me and I uncovered the Rockwell hardness tester to check out the hardness of the Bergara Encore barrels.

"Cheap, Soft Spanish guns" has traditionally sometimes been true, unfortunately, which I can personally vouche for in regard to some I have had such as a Llama 1911 type .45 ACP that had the slide showing signs of stretching after very little use. Likewise, my .45 Firestar shows signs of stretching with only a few Federal +Ps run through it.

Likewise, Taurus handguns from Brazil once had a reputation for being cheaply made, but today it is another story entirely with Taurus putting out superb guns that rival the very best. Frankly, I have picked up several Taurus wheel guns that left me lusting for one myself!

Over the past year and a half doing machine work on Bergara barrels, I have rechambered, cut and crowned, relined, had numerous barrels cut rifle rebored to larger calibers, drilled and tapped, and cut my TBOSS into them.

Their steel machines VERY nicely. Harking back to the days when I did a lot of cut rifling reboring, off the cuff in terms of machineability, I would put the Bergara Encore barrel steel somewhere between early Winchester stainless steel and Ruger's blued, chrome-moly, steel for machining easily and very cleanly.

Cut rifle reboring will tell you more about the machining qualities of barrel steel probably better than any other test. The Bergara barrels I have had rebored recently have cut rifled beautifully!

Internal finishes and the costs to produce those finishes are in part a function of how readily the steel machines and is reflected in the finishes of both the bores and the chambers of the Bergara barrels and their excellent price points.

The point of this Newsletter is this. Has anything by way of barrel hardness (ie, tensile strength) been sacrificed to get these nice finishes at the price we pay for the product?

Drum rollllllll:

Blued steel Bergara Encore barrels Rockwell hardness tested at Rc 25.
Stainless steel Bergara Encore barrels Rockwell hardenss tested Rc 17.
(Their Encore muzzle loader barrels are made from the same steel as their rifle barrels.)

How does this compare with other high power rifle barrels?

Quick summary of checks I have made over the years:

Older vintages of military Mauser barrels and early 1903 Springfield .30/06 manganese steel barrels around Rc 10.

Later Springfield .30/06 barrels made from what P.O. Ackley said was "WD4140," WD meaning "War Department", was around Rc17, the average hardness of "normalized," ie, air cooled 4140 steel.

The majority of commercial barrels from Winchester, Remington, Ruger, etc. tested around Rc 24-26, while at the time I tested them, the Savage 110 barrels were right up there at around Rc 30-32.

Shilen barrels at the time were Rc 19 while Douglas was around Rc 25.

Current Shilen barrels run around Rc 29-30.

Most 416 stainless rifle barrels are around Rc 20, +/-.

As you can see, barrel steel hardnesses range all over the planet, over the entire hardness range from dead soft annealed up through about Rc 32, the upper end of the hardness range that still readily permits the types of machining operations involved in making barrels.

Bottom line:
The Bergara Encore barrels made in Bergara, Spain are right where they need to be for hardness, which determines in large part the tensile strength of the steel.

"Soft Spanish guns" does not apply here!

Another plus for Bergara barrels!

Mike Bellm


Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 02:18:31 AM »
yes kind of like he fool in washington never question the great one regardless of what the facts show.  As I have stated, Randy Wakeman had a financial stake in saying the cva's were bad, as he worked for the competition.  He has changed his opinions as his work changed. Kind of like saying a chrysler is a bad car while wirking for chevy.  Then go to work for chrysler and say chevy is bad. Makes it tough for me to put a lot of stock in it.  Lots of stories of blown up beheaded people and never a public reference, a news sory or ever a picure.  Oh well believe what you think you need to but blindly following without doing any real research is foolish.
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline alsaqr

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 03:50:36 AM »
Wakeman is in the pockets of a Tulsa, OK personal injury lawyer; aka an ambulance chaser.   

Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 09:18:11 AM »
Quote
blindly following without doing any real research is foolish.

I agree, that's why I did my own research.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 09:45:43 AM »
I would love to see the research not just what randy the great one says.  And I find it funny that all you said was you agreed with Randy. If you have proof they are unsafe please post it and save many lives.
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 10:20:56 AM »
I don't think anyone has "proof" either way.  Several hundred injured folks are still in court and a few more turn up each month.  It's cheaper to pay them off, than to do a total recall.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 10:43:22 AM »
yes paying off injury liability suits in I am guessing the millions is much cheaper  I ask the same question of everyone who spews Randy Wakeman says and I get the same response. No proof but we know it as there are many in court umm court documents are public record.  So again I ask what research did you do. You say you have no proof but it would seem to me those saying they are dangerous have the burden of proof on them, otherwise it is hear say or just plain rumor.  I guess the company prefers having several hundred law suits than to  recall a defective product.  If you have no proof how do you know about the law suits?  That would conststute proof from where I sit.
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline alsaqr

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 01:55:30 AM »
Quote
Several hundred injured folks are still in court and a few more turn up each month.  It's cheaper to pay them off, than to do a total recall.


Show me. 

Offline Troyboy

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2009, 02:31:42 PM »
The 2 that i shoot have not blown up yet so i feel that they are worthy and i will buy more cva products. Heavy loads as well i might add.
.204 .22lr .22wm .25acp .223 5.56 .243 .25-06 6.5x55  .308  .300wbymag  7.5x54  7.62x25 7.62x39  338-06  9x19 .38spl  9x18 .45acp . 45-70 .500s&w 12rfl 12smb 20smb  .45lc 410smb .22hornet .280AI    Ask not what your country can do for you BUT what can YOU do for your country

Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2009, 03:20:08 PM »
Quote
I guess the company prefers having several hundred law suits than to  recall a defective product.

It looks that way.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2009, 10:53:04 AM »
again how does it look that way show us the proof. As stated you think w ehave tp prove they are safe umm no you prove they arent.  Court records are public record show us the court records.  Otherwise as I see it what you say has no merit or validity. 
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2009, 11:11:02 AM »
I don't have to prove anything.  The court records speak for themselves.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2009, 12:02:39 PM »
no you can just spews the same lines. Where are the court documents? How about a link to them at least.  If you had all this proof I am sure you would be posting it. Since you have nothing to prove that means you have nothing. So again it is all rumor and until proven otherwise, it remains that. And two posts ago you said there was no proof either way now you say the court documents prove it. Which way is it? enlighten me. Atually dont bother because anything else you say will be taken with a big grain of salt as far as I am concerned. 
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2009, 12:18:53 PM »
got to be online. I remember corey finding a case about a tc hawken exploding on some one. Actually 2 cases. One was because of smokeless powder and then the other one was because of a tight bore, over sized projectile. When you do find them, they are long as heck to read.

Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2009, 12:26:58 PM »
I am told it is all a conspiracy and cover up. All done behind closed doors.  But it has ot be true cuz Randy Wakeman stated it. Plus I am the one who says they are safe I would think if someone thinks they arent, they could find the proof.  Oh yeah I forgot it doesnt exist.
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2009, 03:29:10 PM »
I don't have to prove anything.  The court records speak for themselves.

Ok Cool! The since you've stated
Quote
I've done my own research
I'm sure you will give us the benefit of the results...right? Like what court systems, case & docket numbers, plaintif names, judges names, and amount of damages awarded...or date of out-of-court settlement? (BTW, any case that ends in an OOCS is so documented by the court, as such)

Look freinds, every firearms manufactuer extent has been sued at one time or another. That doesn't mean their guns are "unsafe". It only means that someone sued (doesn't even mean they won though) and if they did there's a court record of same. If someone tells me they "KNOW FOR A FACT" then I want the answers to the above questions, espescially if they say they've done the research. Otherwise it's just blowin smoke, nuthin more.

Only slightly off topic: Once upon a time the great gun Guru Masaad Ayoob made the claim that use of reloads in personal defense ammo would get you sued and you would lose. This has been bandied about as gosple for many years. When I was in college I tried to find out the facts behind this statement, because many Law Enforcement Agencies used this as a reason for making officers carry department issue ammo...still do. Guess what? There is no court case existing that relates to the use of reloads for personal defense, or by LEOs. Yes I even tried to get an answer from the great Ayoob himself, citing court system, docket number, plaintiff names, damage awards, etc. He would not answer my query. Since that time I have queried U.S. attornys, law professors, and legal staff of multiple departments...to no avail. Can you guess why? ::)

Pretty much boils down too: claim somethiing is gosple,without proof in tangible form, and what it really is is male bovine excrement.

Put up or shut up pretty much comes into play here, remembering that it would take multiple cases to PROVE a broad statement that one companies products are unsafe, as opposed to one or two suits that every gun maker will have if they've been in business long enuff.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

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Offline montveil

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2009, 07:15:54 AM »
I really don't want to get into this fray but I shoot a CVA Optima 50 and have faith in it. I firmly believe that I could blow one up with stupidity
Plugged barrel
large heavy bullets with extreme charges
double full loads and double bullets
loose breech plug
just to name a few

One just can't do stupid things with any firearm
Some people believe they can't do anything wrong and it must be the Companies fault if they do a company should have protected them from themselves
Muzzle loaders by nature take some sort of care as the shooter determines the load rather than a rifle with a fixed cartridge

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Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2009, 07:56:17 AM »
if someone thinks they arent, they could find the proof.

Easy enough, just google Chuck Hawk Muzzleloaders

The names of the injured are listed in the article dated Jan 9, 2009.

The email was sent right from the court house during the on going trial.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2009, 09:29:43 AM »
if someone thinks they arent, they could find the proof.

Easy enough, just google Chuck Hawk Muzzleloaders

The names of the injured are listed in the article dated Jan 9, 2009.

The email was sent right from the court house during the on going trial.

Yawn!!!!!!

Wanna know some the other things that are on Google? Lotta stuff that don' mean shirt! In fact, how about an actual link fer a change?  Still waiting for case numbers etc.............
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2009, 09:41:42 AM »
if someone thinks they arent, they could find the proof.

Easy enough, just google Chuck Hawk Muzzleloaders

The names of the injured are listed in the article dated Jan 9, 2009.

The email was sent right from the court house during the on going trial.

chuck hawks/ randy wakeman proves NOTHING.  There are a lot of experts out there that say you have to use such and such caliber/ bullet to kill an animal. Those are opinions, and thats what RW/chuck hawks offer. Opinions.

Offline mangulator

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2009, 10:49:48 AM »
Wow, another link to the famous "Hawks" what about a link to the District Court and State so we can look at the information. Its public knowedge... and if you do not like CVA you don't have to shoot them. I have never had a problem with CVA or the guy's I hunt with have not had problems with CVA products.

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2009, 12:06:50 PM »
Sorry about starting rangewar over the CVA.  The point of my original post was to learn about the sfety of my CVA MZ.  Below is the only thing that I have found that appears legit and even this information doesn't give the date of the incident or the date of manufacture of the firearm.

http://www.lawyersweekly.com/reprints/grg37.htm

RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2009, 12:15:33 PM »
Below is a link to the previously mentioned law firm in Oklahoma.   IF they have any real information on their website about MZ accidents I couldn't find it.

http://eatonandsparks.com/firearms.html
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2009, 12:27:30 PM »
cva Apollo = recall muzzy.

Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2009, 01:04:54 PM »
biker beans how long have you been shooting your muzzleloader?  If you have not had any problems, I doubt you will now.  I shoot an optima elite with a center fire barrel in 270. and a 50 caliber barrel. I have no concerns shooting it at the pressures a modern firearm produce.  It just gets tiring having the same stuff spewed about how unsafe they are and the big conspiracy where the courts and cva are covering it all up.  It makes me think the people who think this is true are like in the wizard of oz and the great one is randy wakeman. saying pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.  Bottom line it is all a dream with no basis in fact. Take your gun and enjoy it.
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2009, 02:00:51 PM »
Neat! That's er', uh....ONE! Yup ONE whole case. Now let's see how many we can come up with for, oh let's say...Colt, or Remington, perhaps NEF, Mossberg maybe, how about Beretta? One case doesn't mean squat when talking about whether or not a manufactures guns are safe. Every gun manufacture that's been around a while has been sued.

The above link doesn't even give details about what happened. From perusing that thing, I could extrapolate that the injured party may have done any number of things that contributed to his accident.

There's guy who shoots at local matches around here that blew up a Lyman GP. He never has told us just how he did that. You reckon that means that Lymans are unsafe?
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2009, 05:13:03 AM »
I hope the below links are "active", if not you will have to type in manually.  Justia is a commercial service that lists filings in Federal District Courts.  They do not list filings in the lower courts, state, city etc.  I am not a member of this service but was able to search their database for the period of Jan 1, 2004 to Feb 25, 2009.  I used the following search terms:

Dikar Coop
Connecticut Valley
CVA
Blackpowder Products

I got "hits" for five product liability cases filed during this period.  One of the "hits" was for the previously mentioned gentleman from Missouri with the exploding Apollo. 

As I get time I will search the state dockets and see what turns up.  I have already searched the Ohio Supreme Court dockets and there are no "hits".

Once again I am just looking for information not on a witch hunt.

I am going to leave out my personal opinions on this issue as I have noticed there are many out there who like to voice theirs.

Link to Justia.com

http://dockets.justia.com/

Links to five “hits” for CVA related product liability lawsuits.  Search period was 1/1/04 to 2/25/09.  These are filings in the Federal Court System only.

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-vawdce/case_no-1:2008cv00046/case_id-71644/

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-codce/case_no-1:2007cv02184/case_id-104429/

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-moedce/case_no-4:2007cv01104/case_id-87371/

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-tnedce/case_no-3:2004cv00475/case_id-39874/

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-iasdce/case_no-4:2006cv00169/case_id-30764/
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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2009, 01:19:23 PM »
Now that ALMOST impressed me! Until I realized that there is no settlement/judgement data on any of the cases shown.

Now try doing that search again using Colt, Remington, Mossberg, Savage, etc....

(in an aside, I know Judge Longstaff. Pity the poor plaintif in that one! :D )
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