Author Topic: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe  (Read 18671 times)

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Offline UtahRob

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2009, 04:06:49 PM »
yes kind of like he fool in washington never question the great one regardless of what the facts show.  As I have stated, Randy Wakeman had a financial stake in saying the cva's were bad, as he worked for the competition.  He has changed his opinions as his work changed. Kind of like saying a chrysler is a bad car while wirking for chevy.  Then go to work for chrysler and say chevy is bad. Makes it tough for me to put a lot of stock in it.  Lots of stories of blown up beheaded people and never a public reference, a news sory or ever a picure.  Oh well believe what you think you need to but blindly following without doing any real research is foolish.

+1

Offline UtahRob

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2009, 07:28:44 PM »
If you look hard enough (like many are doing here)  you will find almost any brand of gun has blow up at one time or another  stupid is as stupid does . I have seen Encores . Marlins  and i bet they all blame it on the guns .  If you don't want a CVA  don't buy it . It's that simple , get over it !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRKP1OkR1fA

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2009, 06:44:31 AM »
Gary,



Thanks for taking the time to write. The Kodiak Pro rifles have a Bergara Barrel that is manufactured in our factory in Bergara Spain (see www.bergarabarrels.com ). Bergara Barrels is one of the fastest growing, and certainly one of the most technically advanced barrel making facilitiies in the world.



I am sure you are reading the “opinions” of Randy Wakeman. Randy is certainly a talented and persuasive writer. But unfortunately he is a little misguided. His online articles are packed with untruths, half-truths and misleading statements designed to turn shooters away from CVA products. I think if you go back and read these articles again with an open mind you will see that this guy is on some sort of vendetta and has really gone off the deep end in his hatred of our company. Why??? I don’t know, I wish I did. O’Neil Williams, the host of the popular hunting and fishing show Outside with O’Neil Williams, recently forwarded a similar email to our company CEO. Attached is the response. I have sent it to you because this letter explains things pretty well. Please take the time to read it. If, after reading this letter, you still have doubts, please send me your telephone number and I will be happy give you a call. In the mean time I suggest that you do as all of the editors of the major gun magazines are doing….ignore him.



Many regards,





Mark Hendricks

VP of Technical Development

Blackpowder Products, Inc

770-449-4687, ext 115
O’Neill:



Thank you for passing on your viewer’s concerns about the most recent Randy Wakeman web blog. Unfortunately, we have received quite a few inquiries regarding the garbage that this guy posts on the internet. Randy Wakeman is from the Chicago area and apparently makes the bulk of his income performing magic tricks in Chicago bar rooms. From what we know, he has never made any substantial amount of money as a “journalist” – as is evidenced by the fact that, to my knowledge, no respectable gun magazine has ever published anything that he has written. Not surprising really, as these publications are very concerned about maintaining their integrity. This is obviously not a concern of Mr. Wakeman or some of the persons and/or companies that he is, from all appearances, associated with in his smear campaign against BPI and our CVA brand. I am sure, however, that he is a very good magician, as he is obviously very capable of deceiving people in to believing whatever he wants them to believe, as is evidenced by Greg’s email to you. On a side note, you can actually see Mr. Wakeman on You Tube doing his magic tricks. It is really quite funny.



O’Neill, you have been working with us for a long time now, you have visited our factory, and you have shot our guns thousands of times, so I know that I am preaching to the choir on this. However, you may often have to address these types of emails, so I do want to make a few brief points about some of the things Mr. Wakeman says about CVA, BPI, and our manufacturer and owner, Dikar.



· Test Firing -- Mr. Wakeman denigrates us for not test firing every single muzzleloader that we produce. What he fails to mention is that no other major muzzleloading manufacturer test fires all of their guns either -- not T/C, not Knight, not Traditions. So, why does he not call all of them to task also? That is a good question, and one that I do not have an answer for. Are they paying him off? Who knows? Certainly, if Mr. Wakeman feels that all muzzleloaders should be test fired, this is a valid opinion, but singling out CVA alone as a “menace” is ridiculous and dishonest. As of now, industry standards and government regulations in the USA do not require, or even recommend, the proof firing of muzzleloaders prior to sale. In some other countries, such proof firing is required for any gun, center-fire or muzzleloader, to be sold. Any CVA gun (or T/C, or Knight, or Traditions) sold in these countries would by law have to be proof fired before it could be legally sold. Of course, being the master of illusion that he is, Mr. Wakeman does not mention this in his article. Instead, he states only that CVA guns are “illicit and illegal” in several foreign countries.



· CVA Voluntary Recall -- Yes, CVA did have a recall of one design of in-line gun that was made in 1995 and 1996 -- that’s almost 15 years ago! This is no secret. In fact, the recall is still in effect and we mention this in all of our catalogs and on our web page. The necessity for this recall made for some very difficult times for our Company, and indeed for some people who were injured with these guns. However, CVA took full responsibility at that time, and BPI (the current owner of the CVA brand) is continuing the efforts to find all 80,000 of these guns. So far, about 96% have been accounted for. For those who were injured with these guns, CVA or BPI has worked with those persons in good faith and given monetary settlements in the more serious cases. Because we have taken responsibility for these guns, no case involving a recall gun has ever gone to trial.



· Other Gun Failures – Mr. Wakeman makes mention of other (non-recall) CVA guns that have failed. Have there been such accidents? Yes, there have been, just as there have been with T/C guns, Knight guns, and Traditions guns. Muzzleloading can be a very dangerous activity, especially if proper safety precautions are not followed. And, for sure, CVA is more exposed to this kind of thing because we sell from two to ten times more guns than any other manufacturer. We have seen guns fail due to being double loaded, loaded with smokeless powder, short started, shot with the barrel obstructed, etc., etc.,. You name it, we have seen it. These types of accidents can, and do, happen with all brands of muzzleloaders, but, for some reason, Mr. Wakeman only writes about those that happen with a CVA. Only in one case am I aware of Mr. Wakeman writing about any accident involving a muzzleloader other than a CVA. The accident occurred with a Savage muzzleloader (and Mr. Wakeman just happens to be on Savage’s payroll). Anyway, a famous muzzleloading expert and writer by the name of Toby Bridges had an accident with a Savage. Unlike his positions when a CVA gun is involved, Mr. Wakeman implied that Toby Bridges misused the gun -- which he possibly could have, but such latitude is never afforded to CVA by Mr. Wakeman.





That’s just three, O’Neill. I could go on and on, but I am not sure that your computer could handle the volume if I were to defend BPI/CVA against every false accusation that Mr. Wakeman has made against us. Why does he do it? Well, it could be that Savage (a competitor of CVA) encourages him to defame us. Many of our competitors are very frustrated in their attempts to compete with CVA, as we have been the number one selling brand of muzzleloader for almost a decade now. I hope, however, that this is not true, as Savage is a very well respected company within our industry. However, that being said, I cannot understand why Savage, or its president, Ron Coburn, would associate themselves either directly or indirectly with this kind of trash. Another explanation could be that Mr. Wakeman is getting paid in some way by the lawyers that he recommends to persons who have had accidents with CVA guns. From all appearances, he is a “rainmaker” for this one particular law firm, so generating business for them by whipping up all of this stuff on the internet may well indeed be another source of income for this self proclaimed gun expert. Or, does he just carry out vendettas for this law firm? He seems pretty tight with them, and they are the only law firm that has ever taken BPI/Dikar/CVA to trial – a case that they lost by unanimous verdict.



In the end, who knows what motivates Mr. Wakeman to pursue so voraciously his “internet terrorism” of our Company. O’Neill, you have been a great friend to CVA for many years. You and I both have shot these guns together. I started with the Company right about the time that the problem with the recall guns began. Since that time, I and my employees have worked very hard to rebuild the CVA brand, and we have done so, making it the number one muzzleloading brand in the USA. Over the past 14 years I have tested each model personally. I have shot our CVA guns thousands of times. Our employees and our families shoot them. You shoot them on TV. We sponsor shoots with consumers, Boy Scouts, Bass Pro, Cabela’s, gun writers, etc., etc., -- and never, not even once, has a CVA gun failed in any of these activities.



Sorry to go on for so long, O’Neill, but this situation really bothers me. Not that I am all that mad, but more so just disappointed. Disappointed that anyone could stoop as low as Mr. Wakeman and his associates have done. It says a lot about the culture we live in today, doesn’t it? I guess the internet has become the “National Enquirer” of the modern age -- a place where anyone can say anything about anyone, no matter how false or misleading, and then claim that it is all protected by “freedom of speech.” The internet is indeed the refuge of last resort for Mr. Wakeman and his lot, unencumbered by editors, fact checkers, or any sense of journalistic integrity.



Best regards,



Dudley McGarity

CEO



www.bpiguns.com



1-800-320-8767 Ext 107

Fax 770-242-8546





From: ONeill Williams [mailto:oneilloutside@mindspring.com]

Offline Troyboy

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2009, 06:53:28 AM »
Well i guess that sums it up.
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Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2009, 01:16:48 PM »
in a nut shell.  The great Randy Wakeman the illusionist haha all smoke and mirrors
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2009, 01:19:23 PM »
Quote
I realized that there is no settlement/judgement data on any of the cases shown.

They are still in the court system.  That's why there hasn't been a settlement/judgement.

Randy is right about CVA products.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2009, 01:40:08 PM »
even Hitler had followers, so what do you expect.
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Remember... Four boxes keep us free: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2009, 02:39:12 PM »
Hey Swamp,

Did you ever follow my suggestion concerning doing a search about suits against any other major manufactures of firearms? Or do you, like Wakeman, simply have blinders on and refuse to face reality? (opps! Can't do that! Might find out that his favorite gunmaker ALSO has a few pending. ;D :D ;D :D )

Gang, methinks it's time to sound the TROLL ALERT:D ;)
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

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Offline alsaqr

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2009, 01:32:25 AM »
Quote
They are still in the court system.  That's why there hasn't been a settlement/judgement.

Randy is right about CVA products.


Swampman continues his song and dance routine that is written and choreographed by his songwriter, Randy Wakeman. 

Offline mangulator

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2009, 04:19:33 AM »
Swampman why do you come onto this sight to degrade CVA and disrespect those who like CVA? Your intelligence he starting to show, you can go and put on your blinders like Wakeman and not do your research that's your right. Like I said if you do not like CVA do not buy or shoot but do not come on this sight and be disrespectful those who like CVA products and have had good experiences with CVA and can trust thier products.

Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2009, 11:13:13 AM »
thenhe goes and gived load advice to people who shoot them.  Kind of hypocritical I would think
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline bikerbeans

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2009, 01:45:55 PM »
A search of Justia.com for the period of Jan 1, 2004 to March 7, 2009 found the following listings for federal lawsuits:

8 lawsuits for Remington Arms

0 Lawsuits for New England Firearms

1 lawsuit for 1871 H&R

2 lawsuits for Marlin Firearms

4 lawsuits for Thompson Center Arms

1 lawsuit for Winchester (included in the Remington Arms search)

1 lawsuit for Beretta USA

1 lawsuit for Benelli USA

2 lawsuits for Sturm Ruger & Co.

0 lawsuits for Rossi/Braztech

5 lawsuits for CVA/Blackpowder

My dog wants to play so I will search for more later.

At the federal level doesn't appear to be a large number of product liability cases for any of these manufacturers/importers. 

Once again, not on a witch hunt just looking for information.

I'll keep searching
RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

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Offline corey012778

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2009, 06:33:11 PM »
bikerbeans.

pretty good info. kinda gets me wondering about where most of the those law suits where user error.

Offline billynwtf

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2009, 04:34:28 AM »
 Looks like big green remington leads the way. Their muzzleloaders are made in spain. This Randy guy is getting paid to trash talk CVA. Money talks guys. How many times have you been driving and see a burnig auto on the road? Is your ford or chevy unsafe? 

Offline bikerbeans

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2009, 06:40:39 AM »
Note on the gun lawsuits.  These may not all be muzzleloaders.  I am just doing a free search and don't have a subscription to JUSTIA.COM so I can't pull up the details.

I agree that operator error could play a role in any of these lawsuits.  The one case in Missouri that I found real detail on indicated the hunter fell from the treestand after his gun blew up.  If you are reckless enough to hunt from a tree without a restraint system then overcharging a muzzleloader seems possible. 


RIP Tom: Tom Nolan, ( bikerbeans) passed away this afternoon (02-04-2021).

Why be difficult, when with a little extra effort you can be impossible?

Wife's Handis;  300 BLKOUT

MINE:  270W, 308x444, 44 Bodeen, 410 shorty rifled slug gun, 445 SuperMag Shikari, 45 ACP shorty,  45-70 Shikari, 45 Cal Smokeless MZ, 50cal 24" SS Sidekick, 50 cal 24" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Huntsman, 50 cal 26" Sidekick, 50-70 Govt Shikari, Tracker II 20 ga shorty, 20 ga VR Pardner, 20ga USH, 12ga VR NWTF, 12ga Tracker II shorty WITHOUT scope, 12ga USH, 10 ga  Pardner Smoothbore slug gun & 24ga Profino Custom rifled slug gun.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2009, 04:28:36 PM »
Does this mean that I should get rid of my 2000 Silverado 4X4 (305,000miles) & take it to the dump & proclaim it "unsafe at any speed" because Ralph Nader made that claim about Corvairs in the 60's? They are the same NAME Brand aren't they?  ???

Same thing isn't it?  ;)
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Offline RandyWakeman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2009, 08:01:34 PM »

I am sure you are reading the “opinions” of Randy Wakeman. Randy is certainly a talented and persuasive writer. But unfortunately he is a little misguided. His online articles are packed with untruths, half-truths and misleading statements designed to turn shooters away from CVA products. I think if you go back and read these articles again with an open mind you will see that this guy is on some sort of vendetta and has really gone off the deep end in his hatred of our company. Why??? I don’t know, I wish I did. O’Neil Williams, the host of the popular hunting and fishing show Outside with O’Neil Williams, recently forwarded a similar email to our company CEO. Attached is the response. I have sent it to you because this letter explains things pretty well. Please take the time to read it. If, after reading this letter, you still have doubts, please send me your telephone number and I will be happy give you a call. In the mean time I suggest that you do as all of the editors of the major gun magazines are doing….ignore him.

Many regards,

Mark Hendricks

VP of Technical Development

Blackpowder Products, Inc

770-449-4687, ext 115
O’Neill:

Thank you for passing on your viewer’s concerns about the most recent Randy Wakeman web blog. Unfortunately, we have received quite a few inquiries regarding the garbage that this guy posts on the internet. Randy Wakeman is from the Chicago area and apparently makes the bulk of his income performing magic tricks in Chicago bar rooms. From what we know, he has never made any substantial amount of money as a “journalist” – as is evidenced by the fact that, to my knowledge, no respectable gun magazine has ever published anything that he has written. Not surprising really, as these publications are very concerned about maintaining their integrity. This is obviously not a concern of Mr. Wakeman or some of the persons and/or companies that he is, from all appearances, associated with in his smear campaign against BPI and our CVA brand. I am sure, however, that he is a very good magician, as he is obviously very capable of deceiving people in to believing whatever he wants them to believe, as is evidenced by Greg’s email to you. On a side note, you can actually see Mr. Wakeman on You Tube doing his magic tricks. It is really quite funny.


O’Neill, you have been working with us for a long time now, you have visited our factory, and you have shot our guns thousands of times, so I know that I am preaching to the choir on this. However, you may often have to address these types of emails, so I do want to make a few brief points about some of the things Mr. Wakeman says about CVA, BPI, and our manufacturer and owner, Dikar.


· Test Firing -- Mr. Wakeman denigrates us for not test firing every single muzzleloader that we produce. What he fails to mention is that no other major muzzleloading manufacturer test fires all of their guns either -- not T/C, not Knight, not Traditions. So, why does he not call all of them to task also? That is a good question, and one that I do not have an answer for. Are they paying him off? Who knows? Certainly, if Mr. Wakeman feels that all muzzleloaders should be test fired, this is a valid opinion, but singling out CVA alone as a “menace” is ridiculous and dishonest. As of now, industry standards and government regulations in the USA do not require, or even recommend, the proof firing of muzzleloaders prior to sale. In some other countries, such proof firing is required for any gun, center-fire or muzzleloader, to be sold. Any CVA gun (or T/C, or Knight, or Traditions) sold in these countries would by law have to be proof fired before it could be legally sold. Of course, being the master of illusion that he is, Mr. Wakeman does not mention this in his article. Instead, he states only that CVA guns are “illicit and illegal” in several foreign countries.

· CVA Voluntary Recall -- Yes, CVA did have a recall of one design of in-line gun that was made in 1995 and 1996 -- that’s almost 15 years ago! This is no secret. In fact, the recall is still in effect and we mention this in all of our catalogs and on our web page. The necessity for this recall made for some very difficult times for our Company, and indeed for some people who were injured with these guns. However, CVA took full responsibility at that time, and BPI (the current owner of the CVA brand) is continuing the efforts to find all 80,000 of these guns. So far, about 96% have been accounted for. For those who were injured with these guns, CVA or BPI has worked with those persons in good faith and given monetary settlements in the more serious cases. Because we have taken responsibility for these guns, no case involving a recall gun has ever gone to trial.

· Other Gun Failures – Mr. Wakeman makes mention of other (non-recall) CVA guns that have failed. Have there been such accidents? Yes, there have been, just as there have been with T/C guns, Knight guns, and Traditions guns. Muzzleloading can be a very dangerous activity, especially if proper safety precautions are not followed. And, for sure, CVA is more exposed to this kind of thing because we sell from two to ten times more guns than any other manufacturer. We have seen guns fail due to being double loaded, loaded with smokeless powder, short started, shot with the barrel obstructed, etc., etc.,. You name it, we have seen it. These types of accidents can, and do, happen with all brands of muzzleloaders, but, for some reason, Mr. Wakeman only writes about those that happen with a CVA. Only in one case am I aware of Mr. Wakeman writing about any accident involving a muzzleloader other than a CVA. The accident occurred with a Savage muzzleloader (and Mr. Wakeman just happens to be on Savage’s payroll). Anyway, a famous muzzleloading expert and writer by the name of Toby Bridges had an accident with a Savage. Unlike his positions when a CVA gun is involved, Mr. Wakeman implied that Toby Bridges misused the gun -- which he possibly could have, but such latitude is never afforded to CVA by Mr. Wakeman.

That’s just three, O’Neill. I could go on and on, but I am not sure that your computer could handle the volume if I were to defend BPI/CVA against every false accusation that Mr. Wakeman has made against us. Why does he do it? Well, it could be that Savage (a competitor of CVA) encourages him to defame us. Many of our competitors are very frustrated in their attempts to compete with CVA, as we have been the number one selling brand of muzzleloader for almost a decade now. I hope, however, that this is not true, as Savage is a very well respected company within our industry. However, that being said, I cannot understand why Savage, or its president, Ron Coburn, would associate themselves either directly or indirectly with this kind of trash. Another explanation could be that Mr. Wakeman is getting paid in some way by the lawyers that he recommends to persons who have had accidents with CVA guns. From all appearances, he is a “rainmaker” for this one particular law firm, so generating business for them by whipping up all of this stuff on the internet may well indeed be another source of income for this self proclaimed gun expert. Or, does he just carry out vendettas for this law firm? He seems pretty tight with them, and they are the only law firm that has ever taken BPI/Dikar/CVA to trial – a case that they lost by unanimous verdict.

In the end, who knows what motivates Mr. Wakeman to pursue so voraciously his “internet terrorism” of our Company. O’Neill, you have been a great friend to CVA for many years. You and I both have shot these guns together. I started with the Company right about the time that the problem with the recall guns began. Since that time, I and my employees have worked very hard to rebuild the CVA brand, and we have done so, making it the number one muzzleloading brand in the USA. Over the past 14 years I have tested each model personally. I have shot our CVA guns thousands of times. Our employees and our families shoot them. You shoot them on TV. We sponsor shoots with consumers, Boy Scouts, Bass Pro, Cabela’s, gun writers, etc., etc., -- and never, not even once, has a CVA gun failed in any of these activities.

Sorry to go on for so long, O’Neill, but this situation really bothers me. Not that I am all that mad, but more so just disappointed. Disappointed that anyone could stoop as low as Mr. Wakeman and his associates have done. It says a lot about the culture we live in today, doesn’t it? I guess the internet has become the “National Enquirer” of the modern age -- a place where anyone can say anything about anyone, no matter how false or misleading, and then claim that it is all protected by “freedom of speech.” The internet is indeed the refuge of last resort for Mr. Wakeman and his lot, unencumbered by editors, fact checkers, or any sense of journalistic integrity.

Best regards,

Dudley McGarity

CEO
www.bpiguns.com
1-800-320-8767 Ext 107
Fax 770-242-8546

From: ONeill Williams [mailto:oneilloutside@mindspring.com]

If either Mr. Hendricks or Mr. McGarity would grant permission for their sworn depositions to be posted here, I can certainly try to help with that.

As far as http://randywakeman.com/Muzzleloading_Tragedy_CVA_Menace.htm  BPI / DIKAR / CVA  Mr. Hendricks, and Mr. McGarity have been unable to show that anything in this article is anything less than truthful.

Is anything that Erik Zenger reported untruthful?


On December 8, 2008, I received an unsolicited e-mail from eye-witness Erik Zenger, which states in part:

Randy,

I am currently sitting in a courthouse in Des Moines, Iowa listening to the CVA attorneys trying to defend the safety of their guns. I am sick to my stomach over the blatant lies and disregard for human life and safety. It has come to my attention that it is not just tens of people hurt by their guns like they had told me-- but its like 300 or more.....the most recent was filed in federal court on November 10. Apparently the guy lost an eye and suffered brain damage.

Something has to be done. There needs to be national attention brought to this issue...how can we do this? Please let me know what we can do.

Further, on December 9, 2008, Erik Zenger reported:
"What I heard yesterday was this.....

1) 1 out of every 25 barrels is tested with a go - no go tool to see if the threads for the breach plug are the right size....thats a mere 4%.

2) Every gun that leaves the factory for the USA has a proof stamp on it, even though they have not been to the proof house. The Dikar guy said that they have no documentation from the proof house authorizing them to do this, he had just been told by "someone" at Dikar (he could not remember who it was) to just go ahead and put a proof mark on each barrel. If a Dikar barrel is to be sold in Europe (which they have not been for about 4 years) they ALL need to go through proof testing.

3) 4 barrels a month are sent to the proof house to be pressure tested. They fire the barrel with a load that is equal to 2 times that which is recommended. These are not randomly selected barrels they just grab 4 consecutive out of a batch. And that is 4 total for all the different barrels they make."
[/i]

How is it that putting PROOF MARKS on barrels that have never been fired, as Erik Zenger has reported above, without any authority from any proof house to do so (also as reported by Erik Zenger) is not total misrepresentation and fraud?

I'm interested in a straight answer to that one. Has ANY CVA gun EVER sold EVER been proof-tested or even so much as fired with a standard working load prior to sale? Any of them?


Do you have any idea where your barrels actually come from before you machine them? Do you even know what specific material they are made from? Have you ever tested them with the very loads you recommend? How is it that a "three pellet 150 grain equivalent load" is okay, but 100 grains of loose powder is "MAX"?

Aren't you aware that Toby Bridges has been a very loud critic of CVA, calling BPI exhibiting a total disregard for consumer safety? Doc White? Erik Brooker? Hodgdon Powder? The CIP? Aren't you aware of the CIP's stance that what you are doing is "completely unacceptable"?

Don't you remember the injuries to Erik Zenger suffered from a CVA inline, Jimmy Dial was injured by a CVA inline, Troy Cashdollar was injured by a CVA inline, Eliot Best was injured by a CVA inline, Mark Kohn was injured by a CVA inline?

H. P. White, the most reputable independent firearms ballistic lab in the United States, had a lot to say about CVA. Don't you remember?

I can help refresh your memories if you'd like.
[/b]



Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2009, 01:23:24 AM »
How's it going Randy?  Glad to see you here.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2009, 08:56:23 AM »
so does TC,KNIGHT,SAVAGE proof test each and every one of their barrels?  I hear tell of a savage goin ka-boom up in canada. Still under investigation.

Offline flinthead

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2009, 10:04:47 AM »
Randy and Swampy...  :-*
" A single shot rifle and a one eyed dog"

Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2009, 10:06:35 AM »
Saving life & limb, one day at a time.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2009, 10:15:02 AM »
i guess that tc triump that let loose on huntingnet had a soft spanish barrel on it huh.

Offline bubba

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2009, 11:49:45 AM »
Randy Wakeman the obama of muzzleloaders and believe me that aint no compliment. Geesh swampman dont wet yourself.
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Offline corey012778

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2009, 04:20:16 PM »
geezz,

still wonder how many are really are user error.

did an search one time. came up with 4 blow barrel from tc 1 from knight, 2 or 3 from savage, 3 from cva, 2 from traditions all where user errors. 

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2009, 04:56:31 PM »
Quote
On December 8, 2008, I received an unsolicited e-mail from eye-witness Erik Zenger, which states in part:

Randy,

I am currently sitting in a courthouse in Des Moines, Iowa listening to the CVA attorneys trying to defend the safety of their guns. I am sick to my stomach over the blatant lies and disregard for human life and safety. It has come to my attention that it is not just tens of people hurt by their guns like they had told me-- but its like 300 or more.....the most recent was filed in federal court on November 10. Apparently the guy lost an eye and suffered brain damage.

Something has to be done. There needs to be national attention brought to this issue...how can we do this? Please let me know what we can do.

Further, on December 9, 2008, Erik Zenger reported:
"What I heard yesterday was this.....

1) 1 out of every 25 barrels is tested with a go - no go tool to see if the threads for the breach plug are the right size....thats a mere 4%.

2) Every gun that leaves the factory for the USA has a proof stamp on it, even though they have not been to the proof house. The Dikar guy said that they have no documentation from the proof house authorizing them to do this, he had just been told by "someone" at Dikar (he could not remember who it was) to just go ahead and put a proof mark on each barrel. If a Dikar barrel is to be sold in Europe (which they have not been for about 4 years) they ALL need to go through proof testing.

3) 4 barrels a month are sent to the proof house to be pressure tested. They fire the barrel with a load that is equal to 2 times that which is recommended. These are not randomly selected barrels they just grab 4 consecutive out of a batch. And that is 4 total for all the different barrels they make."[/i]


Ok, THAT just made every thing else in that post suspect! This guy claims he's "currently sitting in a court house in Des Moines listening to attornys" I DON'T THINK SO! Ain't no way on this green earth he's in the federal courthouse in Des Moinse typing on a computer...unless he's the court recorder! (not bloody likely because the CR there is a female) My job takes into that court on a regular basis, so I know better! (as noted earlier, I also know Judge Longstaff. He is NOT going allow a computer or any other recording device to be used in his courtroom)

Randy, if you're going to try to make your case aginst CVA, it would be wise to start with something more truthful than that to bolster your argument because now I don't beleive ANY of the rest of your comments. Be more careful in your choice of people to quote.

And while you are at it, why don't you spend your energy going after the other gun makers who who have lawsuits, pending or otherwise....Remington maybe, since they top the list? Better yet, you and Swamp might want to sit back and let the courts do thier thing b'fore you drag out the tar & feathers. If CVA looses, you'll have a better chance of seeming convincing...right now you just seem like a shirt stirrer. The world has enough of those already. ::)
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Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2009, 12:52:40 AM »
It's amazing that folks will completely ignore the facts on this issue.  Name calling is the first sign you've lost the debate.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Cuts Crooked

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2009, 03:02:50 AM »
It's amazing that folks will completely ignore the facts on this issue....

Yes it is! You completely ingnore the fact that MANY firearms companies have pending litigation, while using the same "facts" to claim that CVA specifically is unsafe. And Wakeman starts his missive off with an obvious prevarication causing me to doubt his "facts" from the outset.

You can't win this with these tactics, nor can you convince anyone of your premis. Why don't you do like I suggested and wait for the courts to hand down their judgement? Then we will KNOW. The only reason for you continue with this until then, is that you are trolling.
Smokeless is only a passing fad!

"The liar who charms and disarms and wreaths himself in artifice is too agreeable to be called a demon. So we adopt the word "candidate"." Brooke McEldowney

"When a dog has bitten ten kids I have trouble believing he would make a good childs companion just because he now claims he is a good dog and doesn't bite. How's that for a "parable"?"....ME

Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2009, 03:21:54 AM »
The question asked wasn't about other firearms companies.  I don't have a dog in this fight.  Personal safety is my only concern.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline mangulator

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2009, 04:50:04 AM »
Swampman and the Wakeman thats impressive ( I don't think so!) like I said, you don't need to shoot or buy CVA. But get you facts right....

Offline Swampman

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Re: CVA muzzleloaders - are they safe
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2009, 04:57:06 AM »
I've shot and owned several CVAs.  I'd probably still own one of their traditional guns.  I would not own one of their inlines ever.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~