Author Topic: .223 with 1:9 twist (Read 1542 times)

kimark · « **on:** February 21, 2009, 04:01:43 AM »

Have a ultra-varmint with a .223 1:9 twist. Having trouble finding a factory load that will group well at 200-250 yds. Don't think it's a technique problem cause I can shoot better groups with my SMI muzzleloader barrel. Any suggestion?

Buster95 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2009, 05:10:04 AM »

.223 1:9 twist = heavier bullet.

kimark · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2009, 06:47:36 AM »

Thanks, Been trying 55g and lighter assuming that I had a 1:12 twist and then read that the newer 223 were 1:9. Checked mine and sure'nuf that's what it was. I'll try to kind some 60's, see what happens.

ipyrek · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2009, 11:44:37 AM »

How do you find out what the rate of is ? I have a 223 and a 243 Handy Rifles with 20" barrels.

JPShelton · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2009, 11:54:29 AM »

My 1:9 .233 Remington Handi Rifle definitely prefers a diet of 60 to 70 grain bullets versus lighter choices. Its about 1 to 1.5 MOA, depending on the load. Not stellar for a .223, but precise enough for my primary use. My rifle doesn't shoot lighter bullets well at all.

But that's my rifle. A few days ago, there was a guy at the range where I shoot who was running a .223 Ultra with Remington 55 grain FMJ and he was getting nice little 3/4" groups with the stuff. His rifle had the trigger pull set at 2.5 pounds by our local gunsmith but was otherwise unaltered and, like mine, was fairly new and equipped with a 1:9 barrel.

With mine, best accuracy comes with either 69 grain Sierra MatchKings (handloaded to essentially duplicate the Federal Gold Medal factory load with the same bullet) or Barnes 62 grain TSXs.

YMMV, and all of that....

-JP

merkelerk · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2009, 01:38:58 PM »

My .223 handi barrel is 1:9 twist and does very poorly with the heavier bullets. I think the shallow grooves are to blame.
Hornady V-Mav 50grain ahead of 27.7 grains of Reloader 15, CCI small primer, Winchester brass neck sized only and an O.A.L (to the ogive) of 1.91" gives me repeatable sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

I tried everything from 45grain "Bee" to 62grain FMJ, even the above load using another brand of 50grain bullet will not give me good results. I have a crate of the Hornady bullets on order and am using up the other bullets for fouling shots.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2009, 01:56:57 PM »

Quote from: ipyrek on February 21, 2009, 11:44:37 AM

How do you find out what the rate of is ? I have a 223 and a 243 Handy Rifles with 20" barrels.

Check it with a cleaning rod and tight patch, twist info and a method of checking can be found in the FAQs and Help sticky.

Tim

kimark · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:20:59 AM »

Thanks for the info. Looks like it's gonna be the hunt and pick method for me too. At least ya'all have give me a place to start.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:27:41 AM »

The best place to start is the Handi Basics 101 and the FAQs and Help stickys, then work on loads.

Tim

docsoftail · « **Reply #9 on:** March 08, 2009, 04:45:23 PM »

I just purchased a new (old stock) Survivor .223. The dealer had this in stock since 6/06. I called NEF/H&R and asked about the barrel twist. I spoke with 3 customer service/tech reps and asked each the same question. All said it was a 1:9 twist. All said that the .223 barrel twist changed from 1:12 to 1:9 prior to 2000. This contradicts the information in this forum which states the barrel twist changed to 1:9 around 2006. This information apparently came from the manufacturer according to the person reporting it in the forum. If there is anyone with other information on this please post.

Singleshotsam · « **Reply #10 on:** March 08, 2009, 05:36:02 PM »

Quote

.223 1 in 12", late models are a mix of 1:9"/1:12", 2007 Marlin produced barrels are 1:9", use instructions below to determine the twist rate.

I pulled that info from the FAQ's... I would trust the FAQ info more than I would the "reps" from Remington right now. This info was also provided to this forum by CS reps from H&R prior to Remington and Marlin ownership. When in doubt check the bbl twist for yourself like Quick suggested.

docsoftail · « **Reply #11 on:** March 08, 2009, 05:56:30 PM »

One person identified himself as a NEF tech rep ( vs. being a customer service rep) who had been working there the duration. He said "as long as I can remember the twist has been 1:9, yours most assured would be a 1:9, at least if manufacturer back to the late 90's." To best get to the bottom of this, I think someone else on the forum should call them too, then report here as well. They are quick to answer and seem very helpful.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** March 08, 2009, 06:15:41 PM »

Quote from: docsoftail on March 08, 2009, 05:56:30 PM

One person identified himself as a NEF tech rep ( vs. being a customer service rep) who had been working there the duration. He said "as long as I can remember the twist has been 1:9, yours most assured would be a 1:9, at least if manufacturer back to the late 90's." To best get to the bottom of this, I think someone else on the forum should call them too, then report here as well. They are quick to answer and seem very helpful.

Who ever told you that is full of BS, the 223 has been 1:12" since it's been available from H&R, even the 22 Hornet was a 1:12" twist, both are 1:9" now tho, the 223 has been off and on since 2005 or 2006, the fluted barrels were the first available in 1:9. The FAQs info is accurate, check an older barrel for yourself and you'll see, my 2003 barrel is 1:12" as are thousands of others like it, do a search for the topic, you'll find hundreds of posts on it.

Tim

docsoftail · « **Reply #13 on:** March 08, 2009, 06:37:25 PM »

Hey Tim, I'm on your side here. I'll call them again and share this exchange and see what they say. Best to set them straight if indeed they are wrong. I'll report back on what I find out. For now as recently as last Friday, 3 out of 3 at NEF/H&R cutomer service/tech reps say that the barrel twist has been 1:9 on .223 since at least the late 90's.

docsoftail · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2009, 06:39:42 PM »

I also want to add they all said that this goes for "all .223's".

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** March 08, 2009, 08:24:18 PM »

What you were told may apply to Remington 223s, but not H&Rs. There are no sides here, unfortunately it's just more misinformation from Madison, they've only been dealing with H&Rs since last fall, we've been working with H&Rs for years.

Tim

docsoftail · « **Reply #16 on:** March 09, 2009, 07:58:18 AM »

I'm back. Called NEF this morning and asked once again. The official higher up response is this was a called a "running change", that started in the late 90's. This means the all production of the 1:12 barrels ended then and the new 1:9 were produced from then on. Any remaining 1:12's were used up and were shipped alongside the new 1:9 production until no more were left. So there was a short period immediately after the change, in the very early 2000 era, which both barrel firearms were likely being shipped to dealer stock. Rather quickly most shipped as 1:9's though. So very likely at the dealers around this time they had some 1:12 and 1:9 .223's sitting alongside each other. No way of knowing by the serial numbers. By 2002-03, the vast majority being sold to the consumer were 1:9. That's the official NEF/H&R response to this twist as of 3/09. They also ditto that checking with the tape method is the easiest and recommended way to tell for sure or take it to your gunsmith. I invited them to post on the forum but they politely declined. I then asked if they would address this on their web site in the FAQs. We'll see. That's about as much as I can dig up on this. I'm still waiting for my .223 Survivor to ship to my FFL as I just made the purchase a few days ago. That's why I bring all this up. I wanted to know for sure because mine has been at the dealer since 6/06. I'll do the tape and report how twisted this turns out!

Singleshotsam · « **Reply #17 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:22:35 AM »

I'm still trying to figure out why this is an issue with you...

FAQ's state the same thing. They have for a while now. There are several people that have spent time on the phone w/ H&R/NEF prior to this post and a couple that have had the ear of a rep directly which was the "offical" word from H&R NEF and Marlin at the time... The FAQ's are accuratem which is why they are there, to save everybody time. Are you trying to dis-credit the accuracy of the FAQ's? Like I said, just trying to figure out why you are stuck on this...

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:23:56 AM »

Sorry Doc, that's more BS, the change was made erratically, but not starting until 2005/2006, just after they started switching to extractor barrels. As stated before, the first 1:9" twist barrels weren't available until the 2005 fluted models were released. The last run of 1:12" twist Superlight accessory barrels were just sold last year, they were the last of the 1:12" barrels available.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,77118.msg475770.html#msg475770

docsoftail · « **Reply #19 on:** March 09, 2009, 10:16:24 AM »

I spoke with the gun dealer today. They have not shipped to my FFL yet. I inquired about the ejector vs. extractor. If it was the ejector then it most likely had the older 1:12 twist also. Turns out it was the ejector. Would fling the shell vs. pop out slightly. I wanted the most current ejector firearm model with a 1:9 twist so I cancelled the order. It's still a good buy at $206.00. If NEF ever calls back, (they said they would), I'll post the latest "official" response to this .223 twisted sister. Nuff said on this.

Troyboy · « **Reply #20 on:** March 09, 2009, 12:40:31 PM »

You are a stubborn one

docsoftail · « **Reply #21 on:** March 09, 2009, 05:08:33 PM »

NEF is the stubborn ones. Won't budge off information that obviously is wrong. I mean I asked the same question to 4 different CS people. In fact ,they seem to discount the accuracy of the statements made about this issue and other posts on this forum. Not even interested in it much. That's a red flag right there. I responded by saying "well, that's like saying the Corvette club or Harley Club doesn't know much about their cars or bikes!" Thats the BS of all this. I'm a newbie and was just trying to find out what they had to say on the subject since it affected my purchase decision. After all, the particular firearm was in a bit of a gray area regarding this. By failing to recognize and acknowledge the value of listening and responding to what NEF owners chat about regarding their own products is simply not good PR or a sound business policy. By the way I am a NEF owner, even if I didn't purchase this .223. Thank you for the expertise posted here. I made my decision to pass on this one based on this and feel very good about that. There will be another real soon...

docsoftail · « **Reply #22 on:** March 12, 2009, 09:46:06 AM »

Rec'd a phone call from Ken N., from Remington Arms today. He's the tech info guy. He verified that all the previous GB forum posts on the 1:9 twist rate subject were correct -- that the .223 twist rate had a running change from the 1:12 to 1:9 starting in 2006. Changed at the same time when extractor barrels replaced ejectors. Also added that re-tooling and upgrades in manufacturing equipment at NEF has been taken place since the purchase by Remington. He said that unfortunately the CS service dept got it all wrong each time I called. Hopefully, they will now be brought up to speed on this. I also received some insight why this forum at Graybeards is the most knowlegable and respected one for NEF/H&R owners in the US. Ken had nothing but high praise, especially for the senior members who have dedicated much time, mentoring and expertise. For the best and most reliable info on NEF anywhere this forum is where it's at. That came straight from the horses mouth!

Singleshotsam · « **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2009, 09:58:55 AM »

Yeah... that's the general opinion... Only I believed it the first time I read it here...

Skunk · « **Reply #24 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:02:00 AM »

Good report there docsoftail.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #25 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:09:59 AM »

Could be that when we all got such a run around and let down by H&R /NEF when they shut down on us years ago, We didn't trust what was being put out so we started trading info and compiling facts ourselves. Greaybeard opened his arms to us way back then and this is what we have now. A solid grouping of knowledge based on facts and personal experiance, We don't spread hearsay here and the folks will call you out if you try. We like our rifles and Greybeards, Maybe if more manufacturing plants would pay attenion to people and places like this (Not bean counters) we might get a few better products on the shelfs.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** March 12, 2009, 10:37:39 AM »

Thanks for the update Doc, although we already knew about the equipment upgrades at Ilion, they also have a new wood processing plant, and Ilion has a new barrel making facility being built that will take over barrel production for Marlin, to include hammer forged barrels, whether the HF barrels will end up on H&Rs I don't know yet tho. The upgrades are also why recent production is down and H&Rs on shelves are in short supply, they've concentrated on just their best selling products during the transition at Ilion. As for "at NEF", New England Firearms doesn't really exist anymore, it's all but gone from the website, the only reference to it is on the imported shotguns and the starter pistol, as well as in the repair section for the imported shotguns, everything else is H&R, products like the Handi used to be marked NEF, but for the last couple years even they're marked H&R.

Tim

docsoftail · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2009, 11:01:29 AM »

Thanks Tim and all the guys, especially for your newbie understanding and supportive feedback. I am a believer SingleShot.
Doc

OR-E-Gun Bill · « **Reply #28 on:** March 12, 2009, 11:48:56 AM »

Man, I'm sure glad we finally got this resolved. I was just about ready to get old Harri & Richard out of the barn and hitch them up to the Handi Turnip Wagon again...

Bill

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** March 12, 2009, 11:49:56 AM »