Author Topic: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.  (Read 1809 times)

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Offline dominick

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Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« on: February 22, 2009, 03:03:39 AM »
I have a small 3/4" bore cast iron Carronade barrel that needs a steel liner.  I am planning to bore it to 1" diameter and install a 1" od x .120 wall sleeve and epoxy it in place.
This is my first attempt at epoxying a barrel sleeve.  My question is what brand or type of epoxy should I use and what clearance should there be between the liner and the casting?
Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks,  Dom

Offline Double D

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 04:03:59 AM »
Dom,

No experience in big stuff, but done quite a few rifle barrels.  Acraglas gel works good as does the Red loctite products.  What I have been using lately is Loctite 680.  You also might look to Devcon 10 minute epoxy.

If I can ever get my hands on a piece of 25 mm gun barrel real cheap I intend line my Parrot smooth bore and I wll just use the Acraglas.  For a liner that barrel will probably have to be clsoe to 1 3/4 diameter.

You can order larger quanites than the littl 8 oz kits from Brownells.  The Devcon is probably pretty close to the same stuff as the acraglass and probably available in your neighbor hood. I ran your Zip cod on Devcons website and you have all kinds of distributors in your area  http://www.devcon.com/info/search_results.cfm

Offline Josco

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 06:10:43 AM »
I would recommend a slower setting epoxy like  "Conap". Never used it on a liner but have used it for years and found to be one of the best epoxy's out there.
http://www.cytec.com/conap/index.php

You can order it here.
http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp?pn=K20

  Joe

Offline Rickk

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 08:14:14 AM »
I use a lot of different epoxies at work. Some are glass filled and hard as hell (brittle). Some are not filled at all, and not very strong.

I forget the part number, but there is a product made by Hysol (might be owned by 3M now) that would be a good choice. I will get the part number for you Monday when I am at work.

It is very similar in composition to JB Weld, which I use alot of at home. JB weld will be easier to get than the HYSOL product, so I would tend to recommend it over anything else. I believe JB Weld is metal filled. It is very strong and also takes temperature well.

I am not sure about how much room you should leave for the epoxy. It depends on the viscosity of the stuff at the time you install the liner, and that is largely going to be temperature dependant.

A somewhat guess for clearance would be 5-8 mils around (10-15 mils total diameter to diameter).

I would warm both the barrel and the liner to about 100 - 105 F. Mix the epoxy once the metal is warm and smear it everywhere, putting more in the barrel than on the liner. Heating the barrel will thin the epoxy and allow things to flow more nicely, allowing a closer liner to barrel fit as well. You don't want to heat the epoxy prior to applying it as the cure process accelerates as soon as it is heated and you want as much working time as possible. Heating the barrel will heat the epoxy.

Force the liner in and the excess epoxy will be forced out. You will probably need a hydralic ram or press to push the liner in. I would be looking at my hydralic wood splitter about this time  ;) ONce you press it in, leave it in the press for 24 hours to let the epoxy cure.

Your battle will be with the trapped air however. You could possibly put a small hole in the breech of the unlined barel to allow the trapped air to exit. If you don't give the air a planned way out, it will push the epoxy out as you push the liner in.

O ya, a rough surface on both the liner OD and barrel ID is prefered for better adhesion. Course grit sandblasting or rough (40-60 grit) sandpaper would do the job. Cleanliness is important as well. No dust, no oil on the surfaces to be glued.

As far as "CONAP", that is the name of the manufacturer rather than the name of a specific epoxy. They make lots of different epoxies, so you need to specify more than "CONAP". If you use any of their products, stay away from Urethanes. Some are more flaky than others, but Urethanes in general have this annoying habit of sometimes not setting up for various reasons. Some need moisture or they won't set up, while others won't set up if they are exposed to the slightest hint of moisture. Urethanes in general are not for the timid to play with.

Rick

Offline rampa room artillery

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 08:28:23 AM »
 The builder I use, uses west system epoxy. it works it hopld its great. make sure you have a press to press it in.

RIck bryan
 3rd va co B
 

Offline Rickk

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 08:32:09 AM »
Another random thought...

You might want to take a center punch and punch dimples every 90 degrees around and every few inches along the barrel to space the liner in the center of the barrel. That would insure that there were no spots where the epoxy ws so thin it was non-existant. It would also help preserve the perfect contricisity that you no doubt have already built into the bored hole and liner.  ;)

If the dimples are a bit too big, the press should shave them to size.

Rick

Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 08:36:00 AM »
I would make the liner an easy slip fit then put the apoxy on the liner only. If you put epoxy in the barrel it may not all come out leaving the liner not fully seated. A dowell driven in the liner may be a good idea so the liner can be extracted if things don't work out.

Max
Max

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 09:25:43 AM »
Having been involved with lining a cast iron gun, letting the trapped air out is an important step.  It might be worth the trouble to drill a small hole in the breech to prevent air getting trapped behind the liner.  The escaping epoxy would fill it anyway.
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 12:03:12 PM »
Loctite has a website AND we (the company I work for) have often talked with their engineers for recommencations of which product to use.

Find out the type of metals you want to glue together and call or email them!  (I.e.: go right to the source ! )

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline dominick

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2009, 03:08:35 PM »
Thanks for all the info.  The barrel has the original vent so I think it will work as the air bleed hole.  I remember a post a while back when the sleeve creeped out and the epoxy set   so i'll make sure to clamp it in place.   I will post my results and photos of the finished product.  Dom 

Offline Victor3

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 04:53:06 PM »
 If you use Loctite, their 680 retaining compound would be the one. We used it to install sleeves onto shafts (parts usually being 303/304 or 12L14) at a company I used to work for.

 .001 - .003 difference in diameter between OD & ID was what we generally used, but allowed up to .005 if the sleeve was over 3" long and didn't require better concentricity.

 Don't install it 1/2 way and go answer the phone; it sets up pretty quick.

 I'd use epoxy rather than Loctite if you need to fill any significant space at the bottom of the bore.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 07:35:07 PM »
I remember a post a while back when the sleeve creeped out and the epoxy set ...

If you have a good air vent at the extreme back of the bore, you shouldn't have enough air pressure to cause it to creep.

Here is a series of threads regarding sleeving a cast iron barrel.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,112956.0.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,127749.0.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,127928.0.html

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,128371.0.html
GG
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Offline EL Caz 66

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 01:26:20 AM »
Thanks for all the info.  The barrel has the original vent so I think it will work as the air bleed hole.  I remember a post a while back when the sleeve creeped out and the epoxy set   so i'll make sure to clamp it in place.   I will post my results and photos of the finished product.  Dom 

Hey Dom,

Just curious how did this work out?



Offline dominick

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2009, 03:59:36 PM »
No epoxy.  Just a 50 ton press.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2009, 06:50:42 PM »
If I can ever get my hands on a piece of 25 mm gun barrel real cheap I intend line my Parrot smooth bore and I wll just use the Acraglas.

How long is your barrel?
GG
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2009, 06:28:37 AM »
Ive never done any similar work , but if I would do it I think I would tin solder it in place
if you got an loose fit between the bore and the sleve , lets say 5-10 hundreds of an millimeter.
heat the complete barrel with the liner in place to approximately 280-300 degrees celsius and add some soldering tin both from the muzzle and in the vent hole
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Double D

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2009, 06:44:39 AM »
Dom,

Why the press and not epoxy?

George,

24 inches and dirt cheap!

Offline dominick

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2009, 09:57:46 AM »
Dom,

Why ther press and not epoxy?



I decided that since the sleeve is only 8" long and was easy to keep it at interference fit tolerances.   The sleeve is 1/1/4" od x .250 wall and  I installed a 1/2"-13 vent liner with .150 hole fuse hole.  The vent liner also acts as a redundant retainer.  I committed to cold pressing the sleeve and once that process is started there is no turning back.  If the barrel was longer, I think I would certainly go the epoxy route.  Thanks for all the help.

Offline dominick

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2009, 12:05:53 PM »
Here's the completed cannon.







Rear roller assembly.


Offline DoktorD

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2009, 12:21:41 PM »
Very nice work!

I gotta hand it to you Dom, your work is some of the best I've seen... From mortars to cannons, the craftsmanship is great!

Cant wait till I have a Dom piece of my own  :D

Mat
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Offline EL Caz 66

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2009, 12:45:04 PM »
CooL!!  Thanks Dom..

Offline Backswampcub

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2009, 07:25:15 AM »

          WOW, I have been dreaming of a Carronada for awhile. That is a beauty, If I read correctly you put a liner in the barrel but did not turn it. But is there a chance of a 1.75" Carronada in the works turned by Dom. I know with my taxes coming this month I will be looking a barrel

Offline navygunner

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Re: Need advice on barrel sleeve installation.
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2009, 08:43:52 AM »
Nice looking Carronade Dom. My swivel gun got alot of attention at Shiloh. A few ppl took down your address.
geo