Author Topic: Lets talk 30-30 AI... (Read 1868 times)

cwlongshot · « **on:** February 26, 2009, 03:20:38 PM »

I WANT ONE, and it is all TIM's fault!!!

Actually been thinking on it for a couple years and never made the leap. Hearing abbout the excellent accuracy and knowing what I do about the caliber. I think I NEED one! It will likely replace my 308 survivor barrel!!

What has been your experience?

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #1 on:** February 26, 2009, 05:02:30 PM »

Got one but haven't had time to do any thing with it. Got it the hard way, 223 barrel bored and chambered by Wayne. Should be a shooter. I'm still in the research stage of finding loads and seeing what people have to say about bullets. I got my ears on ya'll, come back. DP

coyotejoe · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2009, 03:55:07 AM »

The 30/30 Ackley Improved is a fine cartridge for leverguns, an easy rechamber does give a substantial increase over the old 30/30 without spending a lot of money. But in a handi-rifle I can't see what it could do that a .308 or 30/06 couldn't do better. What is your reasoning on this, considering that you already have a .308? Just "something different"? If that is it, I'm not knocking you, wanting something is reason enough to have it, I'm just wondering why you'd drop a .308 to get a 30/30 improved.

Ruskin · « **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2009, 04:45:07 AM »

Just converted a 300 whisper to a 30-30AI in a contender carbine. I shot some 30-30 to fire form. My group beat the devil out of what I was getting from whisper.

I am starting to fire form.

The whisper was a waste.

Will keep up to date .

buzz253 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2009, 04:56:24 AM »

I love a good 30-30 but have not checked into the 30-30AI. What is the difference in the two?

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2009, 05:14:46 AM »

The primary difference is a ton of good safe pressure tested data vs a ton of highly unsafe untested data from unreliable sources. Oh and perhaps 100 fps at same pressure levels.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2009, 05:31:52 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on February 27, 2009, 05:14:46 AM

The primary difference is a ton of good safe pressure tested data vs a ton of highly unsafe untested data from unreliable sources. Oh and perhaps 100 fps at same pressure levels.

You know Bill.. I really wish you would just speak your mind instead of beating around the bush like you do! LOL LOL

The docs tell me not to keep stuff in. I should let it out, its a stress reliever. So why don't you tell us exactly how you feel?

Bill is at least partially correct. The 30-30AI has never been legitimized and I doubt it ever will. I am quite certain that somewhere someone has pressure tested loads in this caliber thou. I say so what, almost all the great cartridges started out on re-loaders benches. This one has been around a very long time and has proven a good, safe improvement over the 30-30 Win. But like all calibers, you need to watch what is happening and be a conscientious <SP>re-loader. Personally, I have read Ackleys book, with much info on this caliber. I have looked at a couple of his calibers on other occasions too. I like what I see and hear from guys who have done this 30-30 AI re-chamber.

Quote from: coyotejoe on February 27, 2009, 03:55:07 AM

The 30/30 Ackley Improved is a fine cartridge for leverguns, an easy re-chamber does give a substantial increase over the old 30/30 without spending a lot of money. But in a handi-rifle I can't see what it could do that a .308 or 30/06 couldn't do better. What is your reasoning on this, considering that you already have a .308? Just "something different"? If that is it, I'm not knocking you, wanting something is reason enough to have it, I'm just wondering why you'd drop a .308 to get a 30/30 improved.

I haven't been a large fan of rimless calibers in handis. I feel the action is best suited with rimmed calibers of 45,000 cup. If you need more cartridge, go with a different action. I'm not saying that the rimless stuff will not work. Nothing could be farther from what I mean, heck even I have 3-4 that work very well. But they are occasionally plagued with minor irritating issues. I feel these stem from the higher pressures and head-spacing problems associated with rimless hi intensity calibers. This does not mean that it is unsafe. Far from it, IMHO, its just not built with the idea of these higher intensity chamberings.
As for your comparison to the 308. Yes you are correct, there isn't a 30-30 in any flavor that will do what a 308 does. But the 30-30AI comes darn close and does it at far less pressures. These are just my observations, not pushing these opinions on anyone. The same logic says that the two 30-06's in the back of the safe will out do any 308 with good hand-loads as well... I do not want to start a debate over the attributes of each caliber. Each is excellent in what it does and all overlap the other somewhere in there wide reaching spectrum of applications.

CW

Graybeard · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2009, 05:55:17 AM »

Wal CW I'm a shy and retiring kinda guy who seldom ever posts or offers an opinion cuz I'm just too embarrassed to speak in public don't ya know.

I've seen more unsafe load data on the internet for this one round than all others combined I believe. It has had more BS posted about it than most. Do the math. Take a .30-30 case check it's water capacity then fire form that very same case and check the water capacity. I HAVE. There really ain't nearly so much as most think. CRS prevents me from recalling the specifics but I think it was 7% or less increase.

While I can't say that John Barness' theory of a 1% increase in velocity for a 4% increase in case capacity is a law or should be considered one I do believe it's pretty damn close to factual and real world.

The .30-30 AI like most AIs can add at most 100-150 fps to the velocity potential of the parent case at equal pressure levels. Any more than that you get is by increasing the pressure and mostly above safe levels. Ackley didn't do pressure testing and much of the data he provided is just plain unsafe and likely all exceeds SAAMI levels.

The headspacing issue is an invalid one as a rule. You are still gonna headspace off the shoulder even if it has a rim for the most part thus you can ignore whether it has or has not got a rim for headspace issues.

The one advantage a rimmed round has in single shots like the NEF and TCs is they seem to extract easier and to me that is an advantage worth considering. BUT the .307 Winchester is the .308 Winchester with a rim. So if you want a rimmed .30 it's the way to go for the Handi as plenty of good safe data is out there for it. It also has much more capacity thus more potential.

It bothers me greatly to see the unsafe load data common for the .30-30 AI posted all over the place and as a rule I do not allow data for it to be posted on this site as I don't have the time to check its safety.

There, just think what I could do if I wasn't too shy to speak my mind.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2009, 06:23:13 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on February 27, 2009, 05:55:17 AM

Wal CW I'm a shy and retiring kinda guy who seldom ever posts or offers an opinion cuz I'm just too embarrassed to speak in public don't ya know.

GAG! CHOKE!! HACK!!!

Uh hu... and I believe in Santy Claws, the toof fairy...

But let me take this one step further. I'm sure someone has done it, but has anyone seen anything on a 30/30 blown out and the shoulder moved foward as well? Like Hawk did with his rounds. $:-\$ The 30/30 got plenty of neck...

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2009, 06:30:58 AM »

Didn't blow any beer out yer nose there did'ja Richard. ;)Had me gigglin just a little and when my big belly gets ta shakeing things get knocked over.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2009, 06:44:38 AM »

I dearly love this forum! And I think even though I dont have a dog in this particular fight, since I do not have a 30-30 or a 30-30AI I would very much like to see the spell checker replaced so that those of us that can read could actually gain information on the subject at hand !

Did not want to quote anyone so as not to embarass the innocent!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2009, 07:16:03 AM »

I hope the spell checker makes a return. I know I need it!!

I did think on the 307. Its got allot of advantages, no new dies, data everywhere. But brass is a problem, its harder to find. I believe I could just cut a rim in my 308 and be there. (Run the 307 reamer in.)

I agree with your philosophy on posting data. I wouldn't want to post something wrong and have someone get hurt. I cringe with some of the things I have read and practices I have seen others use. I try to air on the side of safety.

Just like I said when I did the 454, I'm not looking to "hot-rod" the 30-30 or the 454. If I can get some increase while operating at same or similar pressures, I'll be happy.

CW

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2009, 07:36:22 AM »

Don't think spell check works nun to good onna somma the werds ussens use down sowth here a bits.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2009, 07:42:22 AM »

As GB said, if you want more out os a rimmed 30 than consider the 307.
I have 1 in a model 94 Big Bore and just picked up a 30/30 Handi barrel here just for that cartridge.
Yea I know I should have held on to the new barrel I sold here a short time ago!
Was wanting a 30/40 but I am already set up for the 307.
Just about duplicates the 308.

LONGTOM

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2009, 07:44:45 AM »

I use the free Google toolbar which has a spell checker, works real good here and everywhere else I post too!!

Tim

http://toolbar.google.com/T5/intl/en/index.html

http://www.google.com/tools/firefox/toolbar/FT5/intl/en/index.html

AtlLaw · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:16:23 AM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on February 27, 2009, 07:36:22 AM

Don't think spell check works nun to good onna somma the werds ussens use down sowth here a bits.

Diggit! Da ol dude musbe sum kinda igorant yankee!

cwlongshot · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:19:17 AM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on February 27, 2009, 08:16:23 AM

Quote from: Badnews Bob on February 27, 2009, 07:36:22 AM
Don't think spell check works nun to good onna somma the werds ussens use down sowth here a bits.

Diggit! Da ol dude musbe sum kinda igorant yankee!

Thanks for the link Tim!!

I used to have that installed... must have been removed last time I had puter issues.... I re-installed it!!

CW

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:35:28 AM »

OOPs lookie like he be a coon a#$ Texacan, can't blame being a yankee on'em, But you know what they say about Texas

Oldshooter · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:45:23 AM »

Hey wait a minute............I resemble that remark.....the texican one anyway.

Not the steers and ................. one!

Hell I can take a joke and I can dish it out too!

Yea thanks Tim I also need it! Sometimes I miss spell Texacan!

omcforever · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2009, 10:42:00 AM »

Love my 30-30 AI,,,,,,,,,,accurate/low recoil/long case life,,what more could a shooter want other than more guns!!!!!

mitch132 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2009, 11:42:43 AM »

Now if only they would come out with a grammar check to go along with the spell check...

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2009, 11:48:53 AM »

That would be kool, a program that can check context too, no more too, to or two, or they're, their or there abuse!!

Tim

Oldshooter · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2009, 11:57:10 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on February 27, 2009, 11:48:53 AM

That would be kool, a program that can check context too, no more too, to or two, or they're, their or there abuse!!

Tim

hey i resemble that their remark two!

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #23 on:** February 27, 2009, 01:47:30 PM »

What the heck happened to the 30-30AI?

Now I'm back in grammer school.

Anyway, I thought the neck was moved forward on the AI kinda like the 7-30 Waters I had Wayne do. (Yah,yah I know, name dropper. But I got one, need to try it too.) Somebody point me in the right direction. Richard, you silver tongued beast, help me out here. DP

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** February 27, 2009, 02:08:30 PM »

If you move the shoulder forward you'll likely cause brass failures when fire forming, I fired 5 or 6 factory Rem rounds in mine after I rechambered it, 3 split at the shoulder which is likely attributed to the chamber not supporting the brass at the shoulder. Whether it was long before I rechambered it, or I cut the chamber too deep, I dunno, I never shot it before rechambering it and stopped reamiing when the reamer touched the rim cut. Even tho it's a rimmed chambering, as Bill mentioned, the round still needs to headspace on the shoulder.

Tim

AtlLaw · « **Reply #25 on:** February 27, 2009, 03:34:34 PM »

Quote from: dpe.ahoy on February 27, 2009, 01:47:30 PM

Richard, you silver tongued beast, help me out here. DP

Shoot DP I dunno! $:-\$ Tim's one of the one's with experience here! I figured you could chamber a rifle for the 30/30 AI and reduce the neck length to say, .30 inch long. Then fire form cases since the parent headspaces on the rim. But Tim says the case can split just blowing them out!

Imagine what it would do if you wanted to push the shoulder foward as well as steepen the angle! $:-\$

Slufoot · « **Reply #26 on:** February 27, 2009, 03:45:36 PM »

I've got a mint 1973 Marlin 336A with a 24" barrel that I had rechambered to 30-30 Ackley Improved and I absolutely love it. I have fired two boxes of factory Remington ammo through it to get my fire formed brass and all cases came out great.
My load for this gun pushes the Remington 170 grain RNCL bullet to 2400 fps and shoots five shot groups right at one inch at 100 yards.
I was able to get 2600 fps with 150 grain Remington RNCL bullets, but my gun has a strong preference for the 170's.
The very first time I took this gun to the woods a dropped a nice nine point buck in his tracks.
I worked up a very accurate load using the Hornady 150 grain SST. I only load one into the chamber and never use the magazine with these bullets. This load will put five shots under one inch at 100 yards. I have taken groundhogs out to 200 yards with this load very easily. This would make a great load for the Handi-Rifle! My Marlin barrel is two inches longer than the Handi barrel so velocity would likely be a little less in the Handi with the same loads.
I say go for it CW and give us a range report!

GOOD SHOOTING!
Slufoot

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** February 27, 2009, 04:40:42 PM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on February 27, 2009, 03:34:34 PM

Shoot DP I dunno! $:-\$ Tim's one of the one's with experience here! I figured you could chamber a rifle for the 30/30 AI and reduce the neck length to say, .30 inch long. Then fire form cases since the parent headspaces on the rim. But Tim says the case can split just blowing them out! Imagine what it would do if you wanted to push the shoulder foward as well as steepen the angle! $:-\$

I didn't say you couldn't get them fire formed, but you'd have to use a false shoulder to headspace on if you cut the chamber deeper and shorten the neck, then it should work fine, no different than what I did for my 280 Improved-improved which holds about .9grs water more than a Nosler 280 Improved case, difference shown below. The only thing I can see that may prevent that from working well is the thin brass of the 30-30 case. The thin brass is another reason why I use 375 Win brass instead since I run pressures well above what the 30-30 runs at.

Tim

mauser98us · « **Reply #28 on:** February 27, 2009, 05:42:59 PM »

Had a fine Marlin 336 30-30 AI as well as a 35 Whelan AI. Both are fabulous rounds. I think if I was going to use a Handi as a platform,I would lokk at a rechamber for 30-40 Krag or 30-40 Imp. Has all the advantages of the rimmed case,and the brass is hell for strong.I love my Krag sporter,but one has to keep the pressures low in deferance to the action MIke

cwlongshot · « **Reply #29 on:** February 28, 2009, 01:32:25 AM »

Another good option Mike!!

Well keep the info flowing, I am soaking it all in.

I hover toward different. Dunno why, I like to have things others don't. I mean almost everyone has a 30-30....

I'm am actually leaning to the 307. Brass is currently available. I can use my existing 308 dies. I can utilize a good 308 barrel I already own. AND Its different!!! Again, I'm not in the for big velocities or buku power. Little better than the 30-30 will suit me just fine.

The 3040 Krag is also a really good option. Its also an older caliber, pressures are lower. Plenty strong brass. BUT brass is scarce. I'd need dies and another barrel.

Keep the ideas coming. This is just an idea, kinda just "fleshing it out".

Thanks for all replies so far!!

CW