Which Cartridge is the Best?

[GrampaMike]

Which Cartridge is the Best?

Just for fun, I like math exercises.  I started a little study in trying to determine a way to rate cartridges.  But how do you compare?  So this first cut I used common factors; “Energy”, “Momentum” and “Recoil”.  I used energy multiplied by momentum to get the “power factor” then divided this power factor value by recoil.  This gives me how much a cartridge “Delivers” to the target vs. to the shooter.  There is probably no real validity to this, but like I said “just for fun”.  For data, I entered EVERY max load from the Barnes number 4 manual (I know this guy has no life) into an Excel spreadsheet (2,104 loads).  The Barnes#4 does not have all the cartridges that we use in our Handi’s, but it’s a start.  The 2,104 loads gave me 273 cartridge and bullet weight combinations.  I am listing the top 25 below.  I was very surprised at the results.

1.   45-70 Ruger No. 1 250 gr
2.   460 S&W Magnum 275 gr
3.   45-70 Ruger No. 1 300 gr
4.   350 Remington Magnum 200 gr
5.   500 S&W Magnum 275 gr
6.   460 S&W Magnum 200 gr
7.   350 Remington Magnum 225 gr
8.   454 Casull 250 gr
9.   338 Federal 185 gr
10.  500 S&W Magnum 325 gr
11.  45-70 Ruger No. 1 400 gr
12.  45-70 1895 Marlin 250 gr
13.  338 Scovill 185 gr
14.  338 Federal 210 gr
15.  338 Scovill 210 gr
16.  338-06 185 gr
17.  308 Winchester 130 gr
18.  45-70 Ruger No. 1 350 gr
19.  308 Winchester 150 gr
20.  325 WSM 180 gr
21.  45-70 1895 Marlin 300 gr
22.  500 S&W Magnum 375 gr
23.  338 Scovill 225 gr
24.  338 Federal 225 gr
25.  325 WSM 200 gr

Need to add more data to include cartridges NOT in the Barnes#4, either the Lyman #49 or Hornady #7.  Any recommendations for data or any other factors to add to the exercise?

[c1skout]

how'd the 22lr stack up?  I've read it was the "most effecient" cartridge (energy developed to powder used or some such).

[tykempster]

I bet the 300 Whisper or 7mm TCU would be up there.  Very small and efficient.  Where is the 458 Lott on the list?  It's pretty even with my 45-120.

[stimpylu32]

Mike

I was shocked to see the .308 Win that high up on the list , one would expect to see the big bore / large case cap rounds like the 45/70 and the 500 S&W but not the lowly 308 . 

stimpy

[PHATINJUN]

GrampaMike, I like and respect all contributions  you make here and want to follow along. But you got me confused soon as you said math!! Is this what you are trying to point out or what with this information. You are showing based on the info provided in the load data...what loads are most efficient for what components are used??? By what it delivers out the muzzle instead of the buttstock?? I want to pay attention but I seem to be staring out the window watching a butterfly chase a snowflake Kurt

[GrampaMike]

C1skout, sorry but I don't have any reloading info on rimfires.  This is only centerfire info.

I added 357 Max from Hornady #7,
300 RCM from Hodgdon 2009,
338 RCM from Hodgdon 2009,
7mm TCU from Hodgdon 2009,
458 Win Mag from Barnes #4,
458 Lott from Barnes #4,
460 Weatherby from Barnes #4,
300 Whisper from Sierra #5,
45-120 Sharps from Lyman #49.

Tykempster, 7mm TCU 139gr ranked 145th
300 Whisper 110gr ranked 7th (good call)
458 Lott 450gr ranked 34th
45-120 Sharps 405gr ranked 261th (sorry but of course the listed codes are very mild)


Stimpy,  the 308 Win surprised me too, but the 45-70 surprised me by being 1st.  Also the 350 Rem Mag is one I don't hear very much about and it did well.  Actually the 500 S&W Mag also surprised me too.  Sounds like I was easy to surprise 

[Chas.]

I'm confused.  For # 12, you have this

12.  45-70 1895 Marlin 250 gr, which looks like caliber/firearm/bullet weight.

But for # 14, you have

14.  338 Federal 210 gr, which looks like caliber/ammo mfg./bullet weight.

Does Federal make firearms, or does Marlin make ammo?

[quickdtoo]

338 Federal is a cartridge. 

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/338_federal_first_look.htm

[stimpylu32]

GrampaMike, I like and respect all contributions  you make here and want to follow along. But you got me confused soon as you said math!! Is this what you are trying to point out or what with this information. You are showing based on the info provided in the load data...what loads are most efficient for what components are used??? By what it delivers out the muzzle instead of the buttstock?? I want to pay attention but I seem to be staring out the window watching a butterfly chase a snowflake Kurt

Kurt

Never herd it put that way before .   

What Mike is doing is taking a math formula and using it to compair were a round will rank with a scale of down range energy compaired to recoil , or in an easy way , how much smack it has on target VS smack on your shoulder .

As he said this is not a true - hard & fast way to look at it but it does give a person looking for a way to compair somewere to start .

stimpy

[PHATINJUN]

Thanks Stimpy I understood the part about being mostly just for fun. But I just wanted to try and figure out what he was comparing...now I get it. Kurt

[GrampaMike]

Been gone all day, had to get some shooting in before it snowed again.

On the first cut I had missed 3 cartridges in the Barnes #4.  The 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott and 460 Wea Mag, so I checked all my data again.  These were the only three missed.

Counting the other cartridges added this morning from other load books; we now have 2,502 loads giving 319 cartridge/bullet combinations.

Chas.  45-70 Government data is usually/sometimes divided up into 3 pressure levels.  Trapdoor level (the lowest pressure), 1895 Marlin level (most lever actions) and Ruger No. 1/3 level (the highest pressure).  Forgive me if you already know this, I might have mis-understood.

Stimpy, thanks for explaining, better than I could have done.

Anyone have any suggestions or cartridge requests?

I love this stuff.

[quickdtoo]

Interesting Mike, thanks!  How's the 405 Win rate with 300gr bullets using Hodgdon data, at 2400fps and 2500fps(28" barrel)?

Tim

[GrampaMike]

405 Winchester  300 gr  Rank 129th of 322
405 Winchester  400 gr  Rank 139th of 322

I really like the 405 Winchester, still in the top half.

[dpe.ahoy]

How about the 444 Marlin and the 35 Rem?  And how many snowflakes can a butterfly catch?  DP

[GrampaMike]

3,535 Loads, 107 Cartridges, 45 with enough data

Rank   Case   Score   

1   79   324   45-70 (Modern Actions)
2   60   313   460 S&W Magnum
3   64   310   500 S&W Magnum
4   54   305   30 TC
5   71   301   338 RCM
6   57   301   338 Federal
7   56   295   308 Winchester
8   34   294   6.8mm Remington SPC
9   72   292   350 Remington Magnum
10   81   290   300 WSM
11   25   289   300 Whisper
12   141   288   460 Weatherby Magnum
13   95   286   458 Winchester Magnum
14   82   285   325 WSM
15   73   284   300 RCM
16   68   283   30-06 Springfield
17   79   281   45-70 (Lever Actions)
18   55   279   7mm-08 Remington
19   74   279   300 RSAUM
20   47   277   454 Casull
21   29   276   223 Remington
22   67   274   270 Winchester
23   86   273   300 H&H Magnum
24   73   268   7mm RSAUM
25   94   261   300 Winchester Magnum
26   40   258   44 Remington Magnum
27   99   258   300 Weatherby Magnum
28   33   257   7mm TCU
29   68   257   280 Remington
30   19   257   327 Federal Magnum
31   66   256   284 Winchester
32   87   255   7mm Weatherby Magnum
33   81   252   7mm WSM
34   59   252   7x57mm Mauser
35   80   250   270 WSM
36   82   249   270 Weatherby Magnum
37   49   249   6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano
38   34   245   357 Remington Maximum
39   82   245   7mm Remington Magnum
40   97   242   7mm STW
41   112   231   300 RUM
42   79   220   45-70 (Trapdoor Actions)
43   112   215   7mm RUM
44   133   210   30-378 Weatherby Magnum
45   16   201   32 H&R Magnum

[GrampaMike]

Been adding alot of new data from Hodgdon 2009 and already the list is changing order.  Stat wise that means I probably do not have enough data to be conclusive.  Going to have to edit the list here when I have more data.

[tykempster]

This is pretty neat.  We need to get a standard firearm weight and barrel length and maybe calculations would change just a bit, but be more standardized.  No real rhyme or reason but it's cool to see how efficiency makes such a big difference.

Possibly a standard pressure to, as a 45-70 Trapdoor load is at a huge disadvantage.  Ammoguide has powder capacities, quickload could do the rest...

[GrampaMike]

Tykempster you are starting to impress me.  I have guys in my office that might not have thought of that (at least for awhile).  I am using a firearm standard weight of 8 lbs for the recoil calculations.  From the 2,817 max loads now in the spreadsheet, so far, 21.85" is the average barrel length.  I add or substract 1% of the muzzle velocity per inch difference in barrel length from the individual load info.  I can change either of these values if someone has better numbers.  In the future, not going to include a cartridge on the list until I have at least 30 loads for it (that should get better values).  Thanks again guys, this is really fun for me.

[quickdtoo]

Fun for us too, THANKS!! 

Tim

[PHATINJUN]

Is there enough data availible for the 32H&R mag ?? Kurt

[GrampaMike]

PHATINJUN, I updated the list above with all the cartridges that has enough data.  The 32 H&R Mag and 327 Federal Mag are included.

[c1skout]

How about the 6.5 carcano?

[tykempster]

I would be interested in seeing how Quickload sees different shapes affecting potential velocity.  We need to design some cases with the same case capacity but totally different shape.  Would be an easy course on case efficiency and what really makes a case more efficient.

[jedman]

  I  am a little surprised that the 44 Magnum didn't make it into the list of the 42 you have listed     Jedman

[bajabill]

I would be interested in how the ranking above would compare to a ranking made of

(Momentum squared)  /  (mass of the bullet plus mass of the powder)

for what its worth...    and there is a method to the madness behind this calculation

[PHATINJUN]

I get the feeling the 45colt will fair even worse than the 32mag. Kurt

[GrampaMike]

Now
3,673 Max Loads
107 Cartridges
48 with enough data

C1skout. Added the 6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano.

Dpe.ahoy.  Added more data for the 444 Marlin and 35 Remington.

Tykempster.  Added the case capacities and Score = (MV*M)/Recoil.  Do you have QuickLoad? Does it provide a way to do your idea?  Trying to convert to a standard pressure using the “MAX” loads from the different load manuals would be difficult. 


Jedman.  Added the 44 Magnum.  The Barnes #4 didn’t have enough data, but the Hodgdon 2009 did. 

Bajabill.  I tried your suggestion, the ranking it gives match up the same as Muzzle Velocity times Momentum.

Rank   Case   (MV*M)/Recoil   

1   79   324   45-70 (Modern Actions)
2   60   313   460 S&W Magnum
3   64   310   500 S&W Magnum
4   54   305   30 TC
5   71   301   338 RCM
6   57   301   338 Federal
7   56   295   308 Winchester
8   34   294   6.8mm Remington SPC
9   72   292   350 Remington Magnum
10   81   290   300 WSM
11   25   289   300 Whisper
12   141   288   460 Weatherby Magnum
13   95   286   458 Winchester Magnum
14   82   285   325 WSM
15   73   285   300 RCM
16   68   283   30-06 Springfield
17   79   281   45-70 (Lever Actions)
18   55   279   7mm-08 Remington
19   74   279   300 RSAUM
20   47   277   454 Casull
21   29   276   223 Remington
22   67   274   270 Winchester
23   86   273   300 H&H Magnum
24   78   271   405 Winchester
25   73   268   7mm RSAUM
26   94   261   300 Winchester Magnum
27   40   258   44 Remington Magnum
28   99   258   300 Weatherby Magnum
29   33   258   7mm TCU
30   68   257   280 Remington
31   19   257   327 Federal Magnum
32   66   256   284 Winchester
33   68   255   444 Marlin
34   87   255   7mm Weatherby Magnum
35   81   252   7mm WSM
36   59   252   7x57mm Mauser
37   80   250   270 WSM
38   82   249   270 Weatherby Magnum
39   49   249   6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano
40   34   245   357 Remington Maximum
41   82   245   7mm Remington Magnum
42   97   242   7mm STW
43   51   240   35 Remington
44   112   231   300 RUM
45   79   220   45-70 (Trapdoor Actions)
46   112   215   7mm RUM
47   133   210   30-378 Weatherby Magnum
48   16   201   32 H&R Magnum

[bajabill]

did you catch the "mass of bullet PLUS powder" as the denominator


If you divided by the mass of bullet only, then you are doing exactly   MV * momentum



What I did was a little 3rd grade algebra and simplification on your equations.

I assumed  ME =  m *v * v   ;    momentum =  m * v   ;  and recoil is the momentum of bullet and powder (crude assumption here)

and ended up with     m * v *v * m * v /  (m + mp) * v

combining, carrying, canceling, and other such cyphering leads us to the    m * v * m *v  / (m+mp)  or

momentum squared / (m+mp)

[GrampaMike]

Been using the following formula, should have posted this earlier.

bajabill.  Yes I did use the plus sign, I have added your formula to the list below.

MV: Muzzle Velocity in fps
BW: Bullet Weight in grains
PW: Powder Weight in grains
GW: Gun Weight in pounds (using 8 lbs)

Energy = (MV^2 * BW) / 450,436

Momentum = (MV * BW) / 225,218

Recoil = (GW * (((32.174 * (((BW * MV) + (4700 * PW)) / 225,218)) / GW) ^2)) / 64.348


Rank   
        Capacity
                   (E*M)/Recoil
                               (M^2)/(BW+PW)   

1   79   324   0.0282   45-70 (Modern Actions)
2   60   313   0.0227   460 S&W Magnum
3   64   310   0.0233   500 S&W Magnum
4   54   305   0.0179   30 TC
5   71   301   0.0224   338 RCM
6   57   301   0.0196   338 Federal
7   56   295   0.0177   308 Winchester
8   34   293   0.0108   6.8mm Remington SPC
9   72   292   0.0219   350 Remington Magnum
10   81   289   0.0210   300 WSM
11   25   289   0.0097   300 Whisper
12   141   288   0.0446   460 Weatherby Magnum
13   95   285   0.0326   458 Winchester Magnum
14   82   284   0.0218   325 WSM
15   73   284   0.0199   300 RCM
16   68   282   0.0185   30-06 Springfield
17   79   280   0.0248   45-70 (Lever Actions)
18   55   279   0.0154   7mm-08 Remington
19   74   279   0.0197   300 RSAUM
20   47   277   0.0147   454 Casull
21   29   276   0.0072   223 Remington
22   67   273   0.0169   270 Winchester
23   86   273   0.0205   300 H&H Magnum
24   78   271   0.0222   405 Winchester
25   73   267   0.0179   7mm RSAUM
26   94   261   0.0205   300 Winchester Magnum
27   49   260   0.0149   445 Supermag
28   40   258   0.0098   44 Remington Magnum
29   99   258   0.0220   300 Weatherby Magnum
30   33   257   0.0093   7mm TCU
31   68   257   0.0161   280 Remington
32   19   257   0.0038   327 Federal Magnum
33   66   256   0.0154   284 Winchester
34   68   255   0.0188   444 Marlin
35   87   254   0.0189   7mm Weatherby Magnum
36   81   252   0.0175   7mm WSM
37   59   252   0.0140   7x57mm Mauser
38   80   250   0.0166   270 WSM
39   49   249   0.0109   6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano
40   82   249   0.0175   270 Weatherby Magnum
41   34   244   0.0089   357 Remington Maximum
42   82   244   0.0170   7mm Remington Magnum
43   97   241   0.0186   7mm STW
44   51   240   0.0125   35 Remington
45   112   231   0.0210   300 RUM
46   79   220   0.0171   45-70 (Trapdoor Actions)
47   52   217   0.0107   38-55 Winchester
48   112   214   0.0181   7mm RUM
49   133   209   0.0203   30-378 Weatherby Magnum
50   16   200   0.0024   32 H&R Magnum

[tykempster]

Quickdtoo on here has quickload, but I'm not 100% it can do what I'm wondering about.  If he sees this maybe he will chime in.