Barack Obama--pro-abortion, anti-freedom

[dukkillr]

Wow you guys sure know how to slice it thin don't ya?

Murder and killing are NOT the same. When soldiers fight in war that's killing but is NOT murder. When a society sets up a set of rules to live by and penalties for those who do not live by those rules taking the life of a person whom society has agreed has committed a crime worthy of death is NOT murder.

Killing a child in or out of the womb is murder.

This seems like a big jump from your position in this thread:
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,133092.msg1098506834.html#msg1098506834
Since I've already written it once, I carry my opinion over from that thread:

We, as a society, have agreed that all robbery, murder, rape, are wrong.  We made laws with something like 100% support outlawing those things.  They were outlawed by common law 350 years ago.  Abortion's a different deal.  Regardless of where you get your information, you'll find a public deeply split on any question regarding abortion.  Most polls seem to split the country roughly into fourths, 25% saying always illegal, 25% saying usually illegal (exceptions for rape and maternal danger), 25% saying mostly legal (no late terms) and 25% saying always legal.  That means that 75% of the country supports allowing some form of abortion, and 75% supports putting some restrictions on abortion.  Now can we see how your above example is absurd?

To me the issue is a one of personal freedom.  It actually doesn't have anything to do with women's health (As SCOTUS opinions ruled) but rather individual autonomy.  I believe that everyone in this country has a right to decide for themselves when life begins.  For most people the decision is a religious one, but we should be careful about inflicting our religious beliefs on others.  In a country founded on the principles of freedom of religion I would draw a line at encoding my belief and forcing it on others.  If labels make you feel good, I approach it as a libertarian.  

Of course the other ideological extreme is that abortion should always be legal.  That intuitively doesn't make sense either.  A baby is born and you kill it that's murder, but a baby is killed minutes before birth it's ok?  I struggle with that.  In addition I can't figure out a reason why late term elective abortions should even exist.  Except in bad father-daughter situations, or other extreme cases, there doesn't seem to be a reason to ever confront the late term abortion.  

My personal opinion (for what it's worth)?  For 2 years in between college and law school I ran path labs and a morgue for a catholic hospital.  We did not do elective abortions but we did health related abortions, miscarriages, and still births.  The sisters determined that we should treat any fetus after 20 weeks as a human life.  My personal observations upon seeing literally hundreds of products of conception was that about 20 weeks seems right.  The earliest ones are indistiguishable from a blood clot and the latest ones look like babies.  If pressed to decide where to draw the line, considering development, viability, my own personal beliefs, and science, that's where I'd draw my line.  But I wouldn't press that on others.  It's a deeply personal decision that no one should have forced on them.

[powderman]

Right and wrong and legal used to mean the same thing. They aren't even in the same book today. Roe vs wade was, and is, a travesty, a terribly bad law. In 1963 God was basicly kicked out of America. Since then we have had children raised by Godless parents, educated in Godless schools, had laws made by Godless politicians, and been judged in a Godless judicial system. The results of all of this is exactly what we see today. No morals, family values, no sense of right and wrong. Life begins at conception. God told Jeremiah, I knew ye before I formed ye in the womb. I cannot understand how ANYBODY could feel that murdering a baby is ok. I've lost track of the millions of murders by the pro death crowd over the years. How many drs, lawyers, firemen, policemen, preachers, the list goes on and on, have been murdered before they could aspire to the life we all take for granted??? These babies would have grown up, been people, just like us. When a baby is murdered an entire family is wiped out. How many children or grandchildren would they have had??? Think about it, killing babies is wrong. Pro life?? Or pro death??? Choose wisely. POWDERMAN. 

[Cabin4]

Anyone who beleives as stronly as that, that abortion is murder, should also refuse to participate in war. You don't have to go to battle and kill. Stay home and object becasue you have the option. Going and killing is therefor murder.

[Oldshooter]

GB is way better at expressing himself than I am especially when my blood pressure gets up to the terminal stages. You cant say it any clearer than what he said. I think I can cifer the problem here.

I am Christian, and a devout believer in the Bible teachings, and in the Bible we get our knowledge and understanding of what is acceptable and what is not. If you do not believe in the bible and what it says then you can come up with all kind of "what ifs" to justify the killing of innocent babys. But people that believe in God and have asked him( the one that died on the cross to take the sins of the world) to come into their lives and change them.( the definition of Christian by the way) dont make excuses for killing babys.  If you are not a believer in the Bible then we are not even talking apples and apples. This I think is where we have the problem.

I am not a perfect person nor am I a man without sin, I am a work in progress and everyday I ask God to help me become a better person.

So there is where I think we are with this abortion Issue!

[rparsons934]

Right and wrong and legal used to mean the same thing. They aren't even in the same book today. Roe vs wade was, and is, a travesty, a terribly bad law. In 1963 God was basicly kicked out of America. Since then we have had children raised by Godless parents, educated in Godless schools, had laws made by Godless politicians, and been judged in a Godless judicial system. The results of all of this is exactly what we see today. No morals, family values, no sense of right and wrong. Life begins at conception. God told Jeremiah, I knew ye before I formed ye in the womb. I cannot understand how ANYBODY could feel that murdering a baby is ok. I've lost track of the millions of murders by the pro death crowd over the years. How many drs, lawyers, firemen, policemen, preachers, the list goes on and on, have been murdered before they could aspire to the life we all take for granted??? These babies would have grown up, been people, just like us. When a baby is murdered an entire family is wiped out. How many children or grandchildren would they have had??? Think about it, killing babies is wrong. Pro life?? Or pro death??? Choose wisely. POWDERMAN. 

Our ansestors moved here for freedoms. One of them was freedom to religion and it should be a god free america in the sense it shouldnt be pushed on people. They should have the right to choose. Hence the freedom part. I also agree with you old shooter. This is looking to be a diffrence in faith beliefs. I understand that you follow the bible and i respect that you stay true to your faith.

[Oldshooter]

There is also scripture that deals with war and killing to defend yourself and your family!
So it is there that I take my direction !

[Cabin4]

I am Christian, and a devout believer in the Bible teachings, and in the Bible we get our knowledge and understanding of what is acceptable and what is not.

No ones asking you to ignore your believes. All you have to do is: Do not have, participate, support or pay for abortions and your religious believes are intact. Just because some women who you don't know has an abortion is not something God will judge you on.

The only issue at hand here is what's the role of government in all this. NONE.

[rparsons934]

I am Christian, and a devout believer in the Bible teachings, and in the Bible we get our knowledge and understanding of what is acceptable and what is not.

No ones asking you to ignore your believes. All you have to do is: Do not have, participate, support or pay for abortions and your religious believes are intact. Just because some women who you don't know has an abortion is not something God will judge you on.

The only issue at hand here is what's the role of government in all this. NONE.

+1

[powderman]

cabin4. I do believe in God, and yes, the murderers will pay on judgement day. Theres a huge difference between murdering babies and going to war or defending yourself and loved ones. If you can't see that difference then I see no reason to try and tell you otherwise. I have no problems  with the death penalty either, those are people who have committed attrocious crimes against humanity and deserve to die.  What are the murdered babies guilty of??? Answer that, what are they being punished for?? POWDERMAN.  

[Cabin4]

cabin4. I do believe in God, and yes, the murderers will pay on judgement day. Theres a huge difference between murdering babies and going to war or defending yourself and loved ones. If you can't see that difference then I see no reason to try and tell you otherwise. I have no problems  with the death penalty either, those are people who have committed attrocious crimes against humanity and deserve to die.  What are the murdered babies guilty of??? Answer that, what are they being punished for?? POWDERMAN.  

I also believe in God. The unborn have done nothing wrong and they don't deserve to be aborted. This is a choice a woman makes. She can answer to God for this, I don't have to.

We don't have to have the death penalty but we do. So, what would Jesus do on this if religion is the sole basis for making these public policy decisions.

Would Jesus go to war and kill? I don't think he would. So how do we reconcile this position based solely on religion for public policy?

What else do we all want the government to tell us to do? How much control do we give to the government over our lives, morality, ethics?? It's a dam slippery slope and I just would like then to stay the heck away from me.

One man’s opinion of morality, ethics and religion is just that, his. This country was not founded on the principals that the government tells us how to run our lives, dictate morals and ethics or force religion down our throats. The more we get government involved in our lives the more this country goes down the drain.

God is not going to judge you for what some strange woman did that you don't even know exsisted. Your religion is intact and your religion is not at risk.

[45-70.gov]

i  considered  a post pardom  abortion  during  their teen  years
now  they  are in their 20s  i see  that would have been a mistake

lf parrents could kill  bad teens we would be better off

WE  don't kill babies
WE  is first person plural  and  inticates  you are a liberal
it  is good  bush  did not fund  abortiond  with  the money  of people  who  oppose  them
it  is bad  that  obama wants grey beard  and powderman  to donate fund/taxes  to help fund abortions

but  i  always vote freedom  first

if a woman decides not  to carry a baby
WE   are  not killing  that  baby  
GOD  does not  need our  help  unless  you think  his  power  is faultering

you  say  killing a human being  is  MURDER
well  there are  some veterens  here  that  did  that.......go  tell  them
would  you shoot some one about to rape  your daughter
you ever  seen a child  being  born??
she  Should  have the right  not to go through  THAT

some  say  abortion is  ok in  cases  of.......what  ever  WE  agree  on
row vs wade is a violation  of the tenth ammendment  IMHO

a  disproportional amount  of abortions  are  among blacks  in america [ i dont  have  the stats  to prove it]
so  it looks like OBAMA  wants  to fully fund  black genocide  in america

[Cabin4]

The issue is Government and its control over the people:

The government has always had the power under the constitution to determine punishment for crime. If society accepts the death penalty, then the death penalty will stand as the punishment for certain crimes. If someone does not believe in the death penalty for religious, moral  or other reasons, then don't work for the place that hires people to carry out the death penalty, don't vote for politicians who support it.

Going to war is also a power that government has under the constitution. If there is a war and you agree, go and fight, that's a decision only you have to deal with between you and your maker. I'm not going to judge any of those currently serving or veterans. If they put their life on the line for me (us), they are hero’s. This is a decision that completely lacks selfish motivation.

My references to "what would Jesus do" was only to highlight people here invoking religion as the basis for being anti-abortion.

Abortion to me is different in this regard. I don't have to support it, fund it, determine it. It has nothing to do with me. Only the women and her doctor need be concerned. The Government has no power under the constitution in my opinion on this and should not fund it.

[45-70.gov]

the french  inquisition  and salem witch  hunt  were  in the  name  of god

so  if  you think  abortion  is  murder
don't pay taxes  while  they are funding abortion
or  do  you feel  THAT strong about  it to take a stand

[powderman]

CABIN 4. Then you are saying that the govt shouldn't have laws concerning murder, rape, robbery, etc?? Do you think Jesus would condone killing babies??? Going to bed now, later. POWDERMAN. 

[billy_56081]

Abortion is murder, no ifs, no ands, no buts!

[Cabin4]

CABIN 4. Then you are saying that the govt shouldn't have laws concerning murder, rape, robbery, etc?? Do you think Jesus would condone killing babies??? Going to bed now, later. POWDERMAN. 

No I am not saying that. I have never said that. I have in fact said the exact opposite so you should go back and read prior posts.

The government has power under the constitution to take us to war and to enact punishment for crime. I stated this above, so your comments fly contradictory to this. The government has no power to stop abortion under the constitution.

No I do not beleive Jesus would condone abortion,,,,,,so what does that have to do with the constituion or government control over people?

[Elijah Gunn]

God is not going to judge you for what some strange woman did that you don't even know exsisted.

Yes He will. When a society has enough people who will have abortions (over 40,000,000 since roe/v/wade) His righteousness demands that nation be judged. That will most definitely include you.(and me) What  we do as individuals effects the whole of our society, culture,and nation.
God deals with individuals,AND nations.

[Cabin4]

God is not going to judge you for what some strange woman did that you don't even know exsisted.

Yes He will. When a society has enough people who will have abortions (over 40,000,000 since roe/v/wade) His righteousness demands that nation be judged. That will most definitely include you.(and me) What  we do as individuals effects the whole of our society, culture,and nation.
God deals with individuals,AND nations.

Then you would have to conclude that we need to get rid of our constitution, our form of governement and replace it with a Christian theocracy!!

[mirage1988]

This country was founded because of FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND FREEDOM FROM TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION! "In God We Trust!" is printed on our currency- not "in obama we trust", not "in big gov't we trust", not "in our intellect we trust", not "in population control we trust".

 I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, one nation under God, indivisable, with justice for all.

Parsons- I feel for the woman that became pregnant after she was raped, i would like to see what percent of the forty million MURDERED babies that is. You stated that you consider yourself a democrat, You proved it in this post.,

Cabin4- You need to stop drinkin that california water! It has too much of that cali WHINE in it!

[45-70.gov]

PARSONS

i  was  on your side

undil  some one  told me  you wre  a democrat

is  this true??

if its true  and  you own a gun  you are a hypocrit  and have  no cresablity

[Cabin4]

This country was founded because of FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND FREEDOM FROM TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION! "In God We Trust!" is printed on our currency- not "in obama we trust", not "in big gov't we trust", not "in our intellect we trust", not "in population control we trust".

 I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, one nation under God, indivisable, with justice for all.

Parsons- I feel for the woman that became pregnant after she was raped, i would like to see what percent of the forty million MURDERED babies that is. You stated that you consider yourself a democrat, You proved it in this post.,

Cabin4- You need to stop drinkin that california water! It has too much of that cali WHINE in it!

So I'm confused. You agree with me? If not, show me in the constitution were it says: no abortion.

[45-70.gov]

This country was founded because of FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND FREEDOM FROM TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION! "In God We Trust!" is printed on our currency- not "in obama we trust", not "in big gov't we trust", not "in our intellect we trust", not "in population control we trust".

 I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, one nation under God, indivisable, with justice for all.

Parsons- I feel for the woman that became pregnant after she was raped, i would like to see what percent of the forty million MURDERED babies that is. You stated that you consider yourself a democrat, You proved it in this post.,

Cabin4- You need to stop drinkin that california water! It has too much of that cali WHINE in it!

So I'm confused. You agree with me? If not, show me in the constitution were it says: no abortion.

read  the 10th  amendment

[Cabin4]

This country was founded because of FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND FREEDOM FROM TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION! "In God We Trust!" is printed on our currency- not "in obama we trust", not "in big gov't we trust", not "in our intellect we trust", not "in population control we trust".

 I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, one nation under God, indivisable, with justice for all.

Parsons- I feel for the woman that became pregnant after she was raped, i would like to see what percent of the forty million MURDERED babies that is. You stated that you consider yourself a democrat, You proved it in this post.,

Cabin4- You need to stop drinkin that california water! It has too much of that cali WHINE in it!

So I'm confused. You agree with me? If not, show me in the constitution were it says: no abortion.

read  the 10th  amendment

I did. It does not say that.

[45-70.gov]

i  think  it denied  the federal government juristiction over abortion  education  and  a lot  more


i  think  it  also make row v wade unconstitutional

[Graybeard]

Wow clearly there is a lot of confusion here. Some folks most definitely have not made up their minds on what the meaning of is is. Klinton would be proud of you.

Way too many comments made above I'd like to address to bother quoting each. Let me restate the simple and to me obvious.

MURDER is wrong, always has been always will be. It's not a matter of religion and religion has nothing to do with it. It is considered and I believer pretty much always has been since the very first on been considered inappropriate behavior.

Killing in war, killing in defense of your life or that of your loved ones or as punishment for a crime society has deemed a capitol offense IS NOT MURDER. To take a life is not the definition of murder. To take a life just to be doing so is murder and always will be murder no ifs, no ands, no buts about it. It is murder.

Killing a child is murder born or unborn if life is agreed to exist. Now the point at which life exists is a bone of contention. I guess to be honest I must say I honestly don't know. Is it at conception? Is it when the child comes from the womb alive on it's own? What about if it needs an incubator to sustain that life? Is it still a life? Does it then become one once the incubator does its job and it can live on its own?

I honestly don't have the answer not the final one at least. I have one in my mind but am not trying to put my thoughts on the matter forward as the final word.

BUT once that babe has life if you or the mom or a doctor or whomever takes that life it is murder.

If you can't see that then you got a serious problem and I can't help you. Maybe someday GOD will but I can not.

I say again and with STRONG EMPHASIS damn it it's NOT a mother's decision to take the life of her child and to not call it murder. That ain't about freedom it's about killing yes MURDERING a human. It's either wrong or it's right to be able to take the life of another at will rather than for cause. Society in general accepts that in war killing is not murder so long as the person doing the killing and the one getting killed are both soldiers. Society has generally accepted that taking a life in defense of your own or that of your family and in some cases even to save the life of a total stranger is not murder. Society all over accepts that to take the life of a person who has committed what society deems a capital offense is NOT murder if done in accordance with the rules of that society.

Religion plays no part in that. Religion is not universal and what one group calls right yet another calls wrong and vice versa. My argument does not rely on religion to support it.

If you deem it the mother's perogative to decide for her own convenience to take the life of her child then why does it matter the age of that child? If she can do it in the womb when the child might have lived outside the womb then it is no different than doing it when the child is 2, 5, 10, 20 or 60 for that matter. You can't have it both ways if its murder it's murder and if not then it's not.

You are boldly two faced if you say a mother has the right to kill her as yet unborn child with life but not ok to kill that same child at some later age after birth. To say the government which is nothing really but the collective consciouness of society has no say in murder and punishment is just completely silly.

[Cabin4]

So that is still the central question, are the unborn life and if so at what point during gestation?

I only referenced the death penalty and killing in war as examples of killing that are legal here. However, there are many people in our society that deem these as immoral and unjust. Nuff said, but you can’t argue that the government has no constitutional authority in these areas because they do. Under our constitution, the government determines punishment and war.

For the record, I do not believe that killing in war and fighting for your country is immoral or unjust. And this is my position on abortion, the constitution is silent. We need to yield to the constitution and in this case, the constitution is at best unclear. STOP: Government, keep out! Should be the fall back position for our society when this is the case. Instead, our country takes this and other similar issues and we make them into political issues that gives government control over our lives. It’s not working.

My overall opinion on this is simple: The government should not be in the position to get into abortion at all just like it has no place with screwing with the 2nd amendment. And again, no one’s religion is at risk. If you don’t like abortion, just don’t get involved in it. Those that do, will pay the price.

And on the opening question above, that should be for everyone to decide for themselves and live with the consequences. Because if we look to the government to solve this, we will be in constant turmoil. Sound familiar???

[Oldshooter]

MURDER is wrong, always has been always will be. It's not a matter of religion and religion has nothing to do with it.

If you believe in God as I think you do, then God and the Bible has to be the way you decide what is right and wrong. It is how I was taught, It is not mans law that is final and most important. I believe you make your life decisions based on Gods law and let him lead your life.

This is the only contention I have with your statement.

[Graybeard]

While I agree with you from my personal perspective even atheists agree murder is wrong. They might not agree that abortion is murder however. Defining when life begins seems to me at least the only real sticking point in when it is and is not murder.

If you are of the opinion life begins at conception then all abortions are murder and many here take that stance. I'm less certain when it begins so am basically against it on the grounds that life might have already begun and if so it's murder. It's not my place to decide but I'm betting GOD knows and has already decided.

Still unless you take the position that life begins only when the mother gives birth a full term (to me a rather silly argument) then how you can not believe abortion equals murder at some point along in the pregnacy I do not understand. How anyone can say murder should be the personal decision of the mother of that life just goes so far outside of what I consider normal human bounds that I confess I have nothing more to say to such folks. To me intelligent conversation can't take place with someone who takes that view.

[Cabin4]

The term murder was used to differentiate from killing under circumstances such as in war and the death penalty. If an intruder comes in your house, does the home owner have a right to murder him or kill him? If a mother aborts, was her intent to murder like a robber killing the store clerk or is it the lesser killing because it's not a complete life under the law? If it’s so apparent that a fetus is a complete life, why are so many people unsettled on this point or when does the fetus become a complete life under the law? So this is all a circular argument or semantics and only diverts from the still yet unsettled issue of the constitutions role or lack thereof as it relates to abortion. If we are debating murder versus killing under the law, then that’s a different discussion as I see this whole thing.

Weather I or anyone believes abortion is murder, killing, fetus termination or not is already determined to be irrelevant in this country by the fact it cannot be settled. The way to settle this is by invoking religion and I thought we needed to leave religion out of public policy.... Now the question is, what's the government’s role in abortion. And that is my only point and this thread demonstrates why we should never look to the government for a solution. Let everyone decide for themselves and let God sort them out.

[rparsons934]

PARSONS

i  was  on your side

undil  some one  told me  you wre  a democrat

is  this true??

if its true  and  you own a gun  you are a hypocrit  and have  no cresablity

In 2 seperare quotes i said that i was raised democrate and i consider my self democrate. But i have no label i am me. I was agains clinton, im against obama i just happen to think that abortion should be legal in some situations. I also am pro gun. I firmly believe we should be allow to bear arms. So no i am not a hypocrit i practice what i preach. I dont say one thing and do some thing else. I am me not democrat not republician. Those are labels. But i agree with some democrate issues yes. I also agree with some republican issues. I think for my self not what some party tells me to believe. I also didnt vote for obama. im with cabin on this one.  Because are govt(wich olmost all of u disagree with in may other posts) deems murder as killing in some situations is bull. I bet GOD wouldnt kill in war or if some 1 came in his house. He would die to let them live.(did it before). SO there is no just murder and since there is no just murder i say the govt should stay out of abortion.