Author Topic: My reloading life is ruined! And it's GB's fault! (Read 1474 times)

AtlLaw · « **on:** March 02, 2009, 02:33:21 PM »

The old saying "ignorence is bliss" is very true.

For years I have been happily loading away thinking I was doing a passable job at it. I prep my brass, you know, uniform the primer pockets, remove the burr from the inside of the flash hole... I even trim them after every firing. I weigh every charge on a balance beam and carefully seat each bullet, turning the case 90 degrees - twice - during the seating process.

I do that last bit because it's 'spose to help the bullets seat streight in the neck... or so I've read. I've always thought it must work since I roll finished rounds along a flat surface looking for wobble in the bullet tip and don't see any. I also read you would be able to see it if runout exceded .003; or was it .005? $:-\$ Anyway I never saw nuthin! BTW, did you ever try to roll a rimmed cartridge in a streight line? That thing will do circles tighter then a buzzard flyin over my ex-wife's barbque!

Whatever... they looked okay to me and for years I been shootin 'em in that "blissfull ignorence!"

That is until Bill sold me his RCBS Case Master.

Then, last night, I loaded up some 35 Whelens. They rolled real good BTW. So, just for grins, I unpack the Case Master and start measureing. Of the 12 rounds I reloaded 2 measured around .003 and the other 10 were all around .007!

I was about in tears I tell you!

Everyone knows with that much runout you couldn't hit the side of a barn if you was standing inside!

So I got a problem and I 'spose I've had it a long time but now that I know about it I've got to find out what is causing it so that means I'll be doin a whole lot more measurin the shooting! Why just today I spent the afternoon measurin cases to start developing my assumptions! So far I've got reason to believe that:
Factory rounds can have runout problems;
Brand new brass can have runout problems;
Firing a round trues it up; (maybe)
Sizing a round trues it up; (maybe)

I see now that the only way I can resolve this matter is to take measurements at each step of the reloading process... or I can just send that darn gadget back to Bill!

smokey66 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 02, 2009, 02:52:19 PM »

that's the feeling i got the first time i looked at a sinclair catalog.

slick00 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 02, 2009, 05:46:47 PM »

I thought the same thing until I got my runout gauge, too!!! Problem is now you know......Anyway, this may sound crazy, but please try it first. If your shell holder on your press is held in place with a c-clip or similar device and your press ram has a indent (i.e., a ring) around the ram, remove the clip and substitute a rubber o-ring in it's place. The o-ring should fit in the groove that goes around the ram located adjacent to the shell holder. It will allow the shell holder to "align" itself better with the die. I can take a pic if you need one. The shell holder will float (move into perfect alignment) but the o-ring will prevent it from falling out of the press as you work the handle. I'll admit it is a little strange at first and you may need to take a little time aligning some cases to start into the die (because the shell holder moved to one side or the other) but you will get used to it. It helped my runout. It is an easy fix to try before you move on to other potential issues.This could be an easy place to start.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** March 02, 2009, 06:04:03 PM »

Now you know why the darn thing had so much dust on it. I did try to clean as much of it off as possible before I sent it your way.

I long ago figured out that too much info wasn't really good for me or my sanity.

I think I did warn you about that didn't I?

Or did I only mean to warn you?

Yeah one or the other I'm pretty sure.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2009, 12:50:33 AM »

im with bill ignorance is bliss

Quote from: Graybeard on March 02, 2009, 06:04:03 PM

Now you know why the darn thing had so much dust on it. I did try to clean as much of it off as possible before I sent it your way.

I long ago figured out that too much info wasn't really good for me or my sanity.

I think I did warn you about that didn't I?

Or did I only mean to warn you?

Yeah one or the other I'm pretty sure.

GameHauler · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2009, 01:24:26 AM »

Now thats funny

I am always getting myself in trouble for over thinking $:-\$

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2009, 04:59:37 AM »

Good post and I would agree that ignorance is bliss....
If you want to see something scarier, just read the discription of what will be done to your factory rifle when sent to a top of the line custom gunsmith to get everything squared up

Ladobe · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2009, 06:06:37 AM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on March 02, 2009, 02:33:21 PM

... or I can just send that darn gadget back to Bill!

Hey, you got it!

I finally got around to selling mine a couple of month ago, as new in the box but with years and years and years of dust on it. Even for my long range varmint hunting where the targets are very small and the ranges very long what it told me just didn't make much difference in the killing fields. Minute of varmint is just that even with a little run out.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2009, 07:30:08 AM »

Quote from: slick00 on March 02, 2009, 05:46:47 PM

this may sound crazy, but please try it first.

Thanks Slick! I love having things to try!

Quote from: Graybeard on March 02, 2009, 06:04:03 PM

I did try to clean as much of it off as possible before I sent it your way.

You did!

The thing looked almost NIB... good price also!

And you did warn me. $:-\$ But it seems like I never heed your advice.

I just got to learn things the hard way...

But for now I'll got something new to worry about in my never ending quest for the "perfect" load!

It might not make anymore difference then my voodoo incantations.

speaking of them, I've got to remember to use my new feathered headdress and human femur bone whilst I dance around reciting that mumbo-jumbo during my next reloading sequence... and don't even think about asking me which forum I bought those off of!

LONGTOM · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2009, 08:41:13 AM »

Richard the best thing to do with that new fangled gadget is to pawn it off on some other fool - ah - reloader and forget you ever had it!
You were killing things long before you got it, now you will be more concerned with what might happen and not concentrating on the shot which will make you miss and you will say I knew it, it is those crooked cartridges when in reality it will be your lack of concentration.
You got along for years without it just as GB has learned to do.
Boys and their toys!
Sounds like my wife!!!
I prefer to spend my time in the field, not at the bench.
If it kills, leave it alone!!!

By the way, keep an eye open as I may be putting my fancy electronic powder measure and scale combo set up for sale soon.
It does everything but mow your grass!

LONGTOM

Graybeard · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2009, 09:31:05 AM »

Quote

By the way, keep an eye open as I may be putting my fancy electronic powder measure and scale combo set up for sale soon.
It does everything but mow your grass!

You must have the green one from RCBS. I picked up a Lyman DPS 1200 last year and if I ever get around to loading ammo again I'll give it a try. I really have gotten lazy in that regard lately and seem to prefer to shoot factory rather than loading.

I'm sure I'll likely not use it all that much but when using those huge logs IMR is famous for I will. I'll stick to my RCBS Uniflow tho for anything that meters well.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2009, 09:58:10 AM »

Quote from: LONGTOM on March 03, 2009, 08:41:13 AM

the best thing to do with that new fangled gadget is to pawn it off on some other fool - ah - reloader and forget you ever had it!

It's a matter of pride now Frank... $:-\$ At my age I refuse to have one more thing I can't get streight!

Graybeard · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2009, 10:09:47 AM »

Wow Richard ole pal are you ever in for a shock.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2009, 10:55:38 AM »

Same on you Greybeard, Pickin on a simple minded feller like Richard.

He is from Jawja and maybe he wern't taught no better.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2009, 12:53:17 PM »

GB, use that electronic scale/dispenser once and you will never go back to the hard way ever again. while it's throwing a charge you can prep the next case, and it throws EXACTLY the correct charge every time, no mess, no fuss, no adjusting.

it's the best reloading money i ever spent.

-Matt

AtlLaw · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2009, 01:04:07 PM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on March 03, 2009, 10:55:38 AM

Shame on you Greybeard, Pickin on a simple minded feller like Richard.

Ya!

SHAME on you Grey...

HEY!!

wait a minute! $:-\$

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2009, 01:28:51 PM »

LONGTOM · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2009, 01:33:21 PM »

Quote

You must have the green one from RCBS.

No GB it is a DEDICATED SYSTEMS model 3010SD.

LONGTOM

don weber · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2009, 06:52:40 AM »

Don't have much of a problem with seating the bullet straight since i started outside neck turning each case. I sure makes a differance in accuracy in the .223,22-250 and .243. I don't bother with the heavier calibers.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2009, 08:44:06 AM »

Quote from: don weber on March 04, 2009, 06:52:40 AM

Don't have much of a problem with seating the bullet straight since i started outside neck turning each case. I sure makes a differance in accuracy...

Well thanks Don... NOT!

That's just what I DIDN'T want to hear!

You know of course that the Case Master has a neck thickness gauge also don't ya!?

By that one statement you have now doubled the amount of measuring I have to do!!

And then, if I can't get the necks streight, and there is a .0005 varience in thickness anywhere in the neck of ONE piece of brass, I'm going to have to buy neck turning stuff and spend even MORE time measurin and turnin and measurin!

So yeah... well gee... thanks for your help... did you like pulling wings off a fly's when you were a kid?

Cummon, fess up, this is really GB isn't it!? $:-\$

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2009, 08:52:36 AM »

Its like having a wife , what ya don't know won't hurt ya . You go out and get a private eye and next thing you are miserable and its your own fault .
So if she shoots stright why check her out ? I mean if you are getting what you want , out of the bullet i mean , why waste time .

moosemoose · « **Reply #21 on:** March 04, 2009, 12:39:21 PM »

I look at it a little differently... measuring neck walls, measuring cartridge case runout, measuring seated bullet runout allows me to find the really bad cases. You know; the ones that ruin good groups while load testing and make you pass up that particular load without ever trying it again. I think neck wall uniformity is the most important.

In the process of course I find the really good ones, flatliners if you will, it is these cases that bring me great satisfaction.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #22 on:** March 04, 2009, 12:52:37 PM »

Quote from: moosemoose on March 04, 2009, 12:39:21 PM

measuring neck walls, measuring cartridge case runout, measuring seated bullet runout allows me to find the really bad cases.

Enlighten me here.

Firing a round, assuming the chamber is within spec all around, should produce a squared up case should it not? Wouldn't firing a round conform the case to the chamber and after firing if there was a bunch of neck runout wouldn't that mean the chamber wasn't true?

GameHauler · « **Reply #23 on:** March 04, 2009, 01:06:52 PM »

Quote from: AtlLaw on March 04, 2009, 12:52:37 PM

Quote from: moosemoose on March 04, 2009, 12:39:21 PM
measuring neck walls, measuring cartridge case runout, measuring seated bullet runout allows me to find the really bad cases.

Enlighten me here. Firing a round, assuming the chamber is within spec all around, should produce a squared up case should it not? Wouldn't firing a round conform the case to the chamber and after firing if there was a bunch of neck runout wouldn't that mean the chamber wasn't true?

If'n I wern't as purdy as you

Me thinks we are twins by different Uncles

GREAT question

moosemoose · « **Reply #24 on:** March 04, 2009, 04:46:20 PM »

Bottom line is that brass flows, all inconsistencies in the case wall flow from head to neck.

So really a bad case can only be made better by neck turning until the abnormalty flows into the neck area again.

merkelerk · « **Reply #25 on:** March 06, 2009, 12:58:02 PM »

I made a neck turning tool the other night. Like Richard said, I should have been happy with my ignorance.
Having now turned about 100 case necks using my smaller lathe and the neck turning tool I made, I have found out how much variance there is in the cases.
Some brass wobbles like an amusement park ride in the 3 jaw chuck while others are beautifly aligned (even amongst like brands and lot numbers), some necks will only have a mere grazing on one side from the cutter, while others will have material removed all the way around. I have also noticed that some of the primer flash holes are no where near the center of the case but are off to one side by as much as 1/32" or more.

On the bright side......
I now have a much better excuse for the occasional fliers that spoil an otherwise beautiful group.
"It really is a great load, no I didn't flinch, it must be some bad brass"

merkelerk · « **Reply #26 on:** March 06, 2009, 01:00:43 PM »

I should have mentioned that all of the cases I turned have been fired at least twice, always from the same rifle (Handi .223 bull barrel)