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Author Topic: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70  (Read 4644 times)

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Offline MrJames680

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Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« on: March 02, 2009, 07:14:02 PM »
I have (Dad has) a Trapdoor Springfield 45/70 marked with a 1898 date on it. I thought this was originally a BP cartridge. Is it possible to reload a modern cartridge with modern smokeless powder and shoot it?   :o

This rifle is in excellent condition. Shoots really well.(10in groups at 600yrds) But I cringe every time its fired as I believe that is a bit too old to handle even mild hand loads. (only load fired is made mild due to this.   reason)  :o

I rather see this rifle in a nice case above the mantle. Can some one confirm this so I can have a classic put out to pasture? Way to beautiful to see a loved one hurt and a classic gone to scrap.  :-\
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Offline GatCat

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2009, 12:06:52 AM »
The .45/70 was introduced as a black powder cartridge. Commercial ammo is loaded to the low pressure your action requires. Also, loading manuals for reloaders list several levels of pressure, the lowest one is specified for Trapdoors, even though one uses smokeless.
That is why current, stronger actions ( Marlins, Rugers, etc ) can use the big case, with modern powders, loaded to a much higher level then the Trapdoors are loaded to, to achieve mucho horsepower.
It would probably be a really good idea to have a gunsmith give a once-over to your Trapdoor, to make sure everything is in good shape.
Also, I would think that some of the smaller, reloading outfits probably make a loaded, blackpowder load for the traditionalists, which might be another option.
If you have it checked by a gunsmith, you might have him figure out exactly which variation you have, some of them are quite rare, and valuable.
Mark
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 03:34:53 AM »
Are you sure it's a "trapdoor"? What part is dated 1898? What's the approximate serial number?
 The last of these left Springfield Armory in 1894.
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Offline MrJames680

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 04:35:22 AM »
Please excuse my lex-dysia.....   yeah.

Its 1889
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 05:28:27 AM »
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Offline bluecow

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2009, 03:03:55 AM »
stay away from jacketed bullets, soft steel barrel?  other than that load light, its not a magnum, shot and enjoy.  just because im old dont mean that im ready for the rocking chair. weak action?.. my trapdoor is 111 yrs old and as good as new.  how many newly made guns are going to be going in 2120 A.D.?
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Offline MrJames680

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2009, 09:27:37 AM »
I think it is soft steel and we have never shot any jacketed bullets through it.

A lot of the blueing is gone but there is not a speck of rust on it. The Trap seems tight still. So doe the hammer and the trigger is still crisp.
Amazing. I would like to fire some hot loads for a 45/70 so I am in the market for a H&R bbl. Or a .223.

Um, me thinks both...
Maybe a second frame.
and a.......................and one of them......................

So much power and so little time to burn it.
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Offline Lemi

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2009, 12:40:43 PM »
I have three Springfield Trapdoors Rifles of different years. I shoot them at least 1 to 2 day's a week at the local range with a group of shooters. I shoot Pyrodex loads from 70 grs. to 60 grains with a 405 gr. Lee bullet I cast. Additionally I regularly use Trail Boss with 13 grs. with the same bullet and I find it very accurate at 100 yds. I believe the pressure with Trail Boss is less than 60 grs. of Pyrodex. The cases extract freely from the chamber and the primers show no signs of pressure. I must say I am not an expert, just a shooter. Good luck!
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Offline hillbill

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2009, 12:59:10 PM »
jeez,id shore have a hard time NOT shooting that gun. unless as a previous poster mention it was a extremely rare valuable model.i would load kinda light for it, but heck if its your gun hang it up and do whatever yu want with it.id be proud to own such a piece of history.
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Offline StrawHat

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2009, 12:59:43 AM »
Quote from: MrJames680 on March 05, 2009, 09:27:37 AM
I think it is soft steel and we have never shot any jacketed bullets through it.

Mr James,  Although I choose not to use jacketed bullets, gilding metal is much softer than any steel and won't damage the rifling.


Quote from: MrJames680 on March 05, 2009, 09:27:37 AM
Amazing. I would like to fire some hot loads for a 45/70 so I am in the market for a H&R bbl. Or a .223.
So much power and so little time to burn it.

I would suggest that if you want to shoot hot loads you get a 450 Marlin.  If you get hot loaded 45-70 cartridges you run the risk of them somehow getting into your Trapdoor.  With the 450, the belt prevents this.

At one time I had a foolproof method of loading my 45-70s so I would know what load was in what case.  My buddy and I were shooting and to him a 45-70 was a 45-70.  I have since stopped loading "Magnum" 45-70s and found the game is just as dead and tastes just as good with lead launched at black powder velocities.  My choice, not necessarily yours.
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Offline surveyor47

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 04:45:58 PM »
I use cast lead bullets ONLY for Trapdoor loads for my Sharps.  I use jacketed bullets ONLY for Marlin loads for my 1895.  I also mark each relaods Trapdoor or Marlin.  Not foolproof, but I know what is what. 

Experience is teaching me that Trapdoor loads are all that is really necessary.  The Marlin loads will kick the snot out of you and unless you are literally out for bear or hog, I am not convinced  that they are all that much more effective than Trapdoor loads. Im finding that I like the 45-70 a whole lot more at the Trapdoor level with cast lead bullets.

I dont see much purpose in the 450 Marlin as factory loaded.  If it were loaded to a reasonable level, something short of an elephant gun, I could see it, but not the way it is loaded.  Too much.  I like the 45-70 much better.

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Offline LouB

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2010, 03:37:48 AM »
In my shared Trapdoor Springfield,  I use a 20:1 lead/tin alloy with Lee 405gr HBRN cast bullets (this mold is a copy of the original 1873 arsenal bullet for the TD.)  I do not size the bullets and tumble lube them with Lee's liquid Alox.  I use a standard large rifle primer (win) and 11.0 grains of unique powder.  The velocity is 1000fps and the accuracy is generally 2-2.5 MOA at 100 yards and the best 5 shot group to date was 0.95 inches.

Very pleasant to shoot and to clean after a range session.

Cheers,
Lou
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Offline tacklebury

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2010, 04:56:55 PM »
A great trap door load with 350gr. RNFP leads is 34.3 gr. Reloader7 with a CCI Large Rifle Primer.  I've shot a lot of them and they get pretty fair accuracy.  Per Alliant's trap door loads, you can take it up to 42gr. RL7, but I keep the lighter loads for plinking and for my wife to shoot.  When I shoot my Buffalo Classic .45-70, I bump this up to a 350 gr. Interlock FP and 46.7 gr. Reloader7 and if I were going for elk/moose, I'd probably load closer to 52gr. Reloader7.  Hard to beat RL7 for range of application and accuracy in the .45-70 from my findings.  ;)

I'm currently breaking into reloading for my 1881 Marlin Levergun in .40-60 Marlin and using a light RL7 load also.  ;)
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Tacklebury --}>>>>>    Multi-Barrel: .223 Superlite, 7mm-08 22", .30-40 Krag M158, .357 Maximum 16-1/4 HB, .45 Colt, .45-70 22" irons, 32" .45-70 Peeps, 12 Ga. 3-1/2 w/ Chokes, .410 Smooth slugger, .45 Cal Muzzy, .50 Cal Muzzy, .58 Cal Muzzy

also classics: M903 9-shot Target .22 Revolver, 1926 .410 Single, 1915 38 S&W Break top Revolver and 7-shot H&R Trapper .22 6" bbl.

Offline Freightman

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2010, 05:28:31 AM »
Go to this site and read how to get the most out of your Trap Door.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php I shoot my original 1867 #1 Rolling Block all the time with mild to medium loads of smokless powder.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2011, 10:12:22 AM »
I found an original infantry model 45-70 complete with bayonete back in 1972.  I found it under the floor boards in a falling down cabin at an abandoned village back in 1972.  The gun had been wrapped in oily paper then oil cloth before storing.  the end of the barrel had a little rust where the oil cloth had rotted away.  Otherwise the gun was in excellent shape.  We took it out to the range and found it very accurate out to 500 yards with the original flip up sights with a screw that moved the sight up and down on a scale marked in yards.  The sight went all the way up to 800 or a thousand yards.  I can not remember.  

I took it out that fall and shot a Moose with it at 600 yards, using the flip up sights.  Back then we did not have range finders, we just guessed.  First shot was too high, second shot too low.  Third shot middle of the body, just behind the shoulder.  Moose walked about 35 yards, stopped and stood for about 10 seconds, then fell over.  I let my buddy Ed Read talk me out of it about five years later.  Ed still has it and shoots it regulerly using factory Remington ammo.

StrawHat:  You brought up a point that suddenly scares the heck out of me.  I have bought an H&R Trapdoor Springfield replica in 45-70.  It is due to arrive this week at my FFL dealer.  My son and I both shoot Handis in 45-70.  We use them mostly for Bears over bait, so we load them pretty hot.  Now I have to find a way to keep the shells apart or just not shoot the trapdoor.  I made a mistake a few years ago, I got some of my wife's hot loads for her .44 mag carbine and shot them in my Ruger Blackhawk.  Distroyed the Ruger, luckily no one was hurt seriously.  I got a few cuts on the face from flying metal, and my hand and wrist hurt for a few days.
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Offline StrawHat

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Re: Trapdoor Springfiled 45/70
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2011, 01:18:43 AM »
Quote from: Sourdough on January 04, 2011, 10:12:22 AM
...StrawHat:  You brought up a point that suddenly scares the heck out of me.  I have bought an H&R Trapdoor Springfield replica in 45-70.  It is due to arrive this week at my FFL dealer.  My son and I both shoot Handis in 45-70.  We use them mostly for Bears over bait, so we load them pretty hot.  Now I have to find a way to keep the shells apart or just not shoot the trapdoor.  I made a mistake a few years ago, I got some of my wife's hot loads for her .44 mag carbine and shot them in my Ruger Blackhawk.  Distroyed the Ruger, luckily no one was hurt seriously.  I got a few cuts on the face from flying metal, and my hand and wrist hurt for a few days...

Morning Sourdough,

(I apologize for this long response)

The whole idea of mixing loads in a 45-70 is a very scary thing.  At one time, I had a trapdoor, a double rifle, two rolling blocks, a Siamese Mauser, a single shot Enfield, and a couple of other rifles chambered for the 45-70.  Each had a "preferred" load and I had a foolproof system.  Unfortunately, God sent a better model of fool along and things got interesting fast!  We were out shooting 45-70s one day and I happened to look over as a buddy of mine was slipping a Siamese load into my trapdoor.  I got to him before he pulled the trigger but it was still scary.  Shooting ceased for the day and on my next outing I only carried one rifle and one load.  That made things easier but not what I wanted.  At some point, I was hunting with a pal who used a 45 long Colt with blackpowder and cast lead.  He was always getting better results with his shots compared to my 44 Magnum SBH loads.  Eventually it dawned on me that the origianal ballistics for the 45 long Colt were pretty good for whitetailed deer so I switched to black powder or equivalent loads.  I carried that a bit farther and made the decision to load for my 45-70s the same way, either black powder or black powder equivalent loads.  Do I give up anything with the old, slow ballistics?  Maybe a bit of trajectory but I don't think anyone considers a 45 caliber bullet to be flat shooting to begin with.  Have I sacrificed any yardage?  Not for hunting certainly, I still stalk to within 100 yards or pass the shot.  For plinking etc, the range is the same as always, if I can see it, I will lob a few toward the target and walk my shots in. 

I am sure others may feel the need to load up the big case but it is certainly not needed.  Some like the heavy recoil, others like the "coolness" factor.  In my time, I have come to appreciate things used the way they were origianlly intended and for me, that is fine.  The 45-70 was developed to be an improvement over the 50-70 and it may have accomplished that.  It does have a bit flatter trajectory but I find it a bit fussier to load for.  It will certainly kill a horse or man at 100 yards so most animals on this continent are within its ballistics.  It is also a fun cartidge to shoot and learn.  Good luck with your trapdoor and once you have a good blackpowder load, try it in your handi rifle, you might be surprised by the results.

I have also found the Trapdoor is a much stronger firearm than the myth would have you believe, but that is for another thread.

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