Author Topic: BP Revolver Hunting  (Read 2417 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline teamnelson

  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4487
  • Gender: Male
BP Revolver Hunting
« on: March 05, 2009, 10:37:54 AM »
Anybody hunt with their BP revolver? Do you also hunt with a conversion cylinder?

S/F,
Chaps
held fast

Offline blhof

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 738
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2009, 06:40:37 PM »
I carry it as back up during B/p season, as in Ky it's a legal B/p gun, but not with conversion.  I have the conversion, but the cowboy loads are not as accurate as the ball.  I've taken rabbit and finished a deer with mine and both shots provided rapid kills.  For actual hunting of deer size game; I wouldn't recommend it, but a point blank shot, well placed would certainly kill one.

Offline IMshooter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 151
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2009, 01:34:04 PM »
I've used a repro Colt 1860 for rabbit hunting and it is a tremendous amount of fun, especially with the shoulder stock attached.

Offline navygunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2009, 09:24:43 AM »
Most 44 cal BP revolvers are inadequate for white tail. Yes i know there is always someone who has done it but the ballistics puts it ethically beyond the pale. .451 round ball and full chamber of pb delivers about 130 ft-lbs of energy at 25 yards. Pistol hunt with a bigbore 54 cal single shot.

NG

Offline Gatofeo

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2009, 04:33:56 PM »
I agree, cap and ball sixguns should only be used to hunt small game.
In addition to the rather meager ballistics of most, they lack the precision sights required for hunting.
Yes, the Ruger Old Army and some Remington copies have target adjustable sights -- but their ballistics are rather lacking.
Yes, you can use a conical bullet -- but you have to sacrifice powder (read velocity and energy) to get it to fit in the chamber.
Yes, good ol' Charlie Wilkins over in Hanceville killed him a big ol' buck with one last fall -- and plenty of poachers have killed deer, elk and moose with .22 rimfire rifles. What's your point? Flukes happen.
But for use on animals up to the size of coyotes, cap and ball sixguns work if you place the ball accurately. I've bagged a few cottontails with my .36 Navy, with head shots, and it worked better than a .22 rifle.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline MISSEDSHOT

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 50
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2009, 05:41:55 AM »
I just had to reply to this one.I have read more than one historical account of buffalo being killed with regularity with .36 and .44 blackpowder revolvers from horseback and at distances.The .44 killed more quickly.With that being said I also was reading about the history of the Walker,the originals,and a man killed a grizzly with one and it wasn't a cub.Do a google on historical accounts of blackpowder revolver kills.As for modern experiences,the last 20 years with reproduction Remingtons,Colts, and a newly acquired Ruger,they kill out of proportion to what we know about modern magnum ballistics, against all odds if you will.The round ball traveling at 600+fps at distances of less than 50yards will kill anything deer size and down with proper shot placement.Add conicals,adjustable sights,800+fps and lots of practice they are very effective deer killers,double-lung pass thru shots and sometimes double shoulder pass thru shots happen.I know of two drop dead in their tracks kills.Blood trails are as good as it gets with archery gear or primitive muzzleloaders at 50yards or less.I must agree that a Lyman .54cal. pistol is a very effective deer and larger game killer.Carry two or more if hunting dangerous game.

Offline navygunner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2009, 05:27:22 AM »
As I stated above there's always an exception especially in "historical" recollections. I've also heard of grizzlies killing the hunter after taking several rounds from 30-30s and up. I don't think a 36/44 cal revolver was the choice of Buff hunters. LOL That said. With proper sights, close range 25 yds and under and proper shot placement yes they can take deer. The average hunter is not that good. a sample of ballistics taken from Lymans Handbook shows the following.

36 ball 81 gr max goex gives 1079fps and 209fpe @ the muzzle/ significent drop at 25yds
36 con 150   "       "       "      787fps  and  206fpe
44 ball 138 gr max goex gives 979fps  and 293.7 fpe
44 con 155 gr max goex          861fps  and 255   fpe

This is hardly an adequate load to hunt whitetail out to 50 yds with. If you are that good I take my hat off to ya but I say again in the hands of the average weekend hunter. Not ethical.

Offline filmokentucky

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 535
  • Gender: Male
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2009, 06:46:31 AM »
What does it say about the ball from a Walker Colt ?
N.M.L.R.A. Member
T.M.A. Member
N.R.A. Endowment Life Member

Offline NickSS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 384
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 01:52:34 AM »
I have used my C&B revolvers a lot for hunting.  I generally carry my remington 44 when deer hunting to use on grouse and other small critters.  I also carry it when hiking as I have used it for plinking and informal target practice.  I also shot 30 to 40 prairie dogs once when in Montana with it.  The largest animal I shot with it was a 200 pound wild hog that charged me when I was out picture taking.  I hit it with two fast shots and had pork for dinner.

Offline S.S.

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2840
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2009, 02:59:34 PM »
Depends on what part of the country you are hunting.
Georgia whitetail are pretty small compared to its western
family members and are not too difficult to drop.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline longcaribiner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2009, 03:29:30 AM »
I shoot more wood chucks with a Ruger Old Army than any other firearm.  Cap and Ball revolvers aren't legal for hunting in PA, except for coyotes and chucks.    However, I have a mold for a 456 diameter wad cutter bullet, which is basically a 1/2 inch long cylinder with three grease grooves.  I load that in the ruger over 3f and it packs more wallop than a round ball.  Never even tried to calculate the energy.  It weighs 210 grains as I recall.   At 25 yards I see a significant difference in the way it rolls over sillouhettes when compared to round balls. 

Most black power revolvers and loads simply aren't white tail firearms.  For second killing shots, for downed animals, sure. where legal.   

A Colt Walker probably is, since 60 grains can be crammed in each chamber.   

If the exchange rate is ever favorable again, I'd approach the italians about running off some  54 or  58 caliber cap and ball pistols, like some of the early English revolvers.   Even if just 5 shot.    50 or 60 grains of powder behind a large ball, would be a hunter.     

Offline bubba15301

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Gender: Male
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2009, 12:24:40 PM »
they are legal in pa for small game .40cal and under i asked pa game commission
BUBBA

Offline longcaribiner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2009, 02:49:01 AM »
Bubba, quite rerspectfully, you had better ask again.  The PA game Code and Regulations permit MUZZLELOADING firearms 40 caliber and under.  Cap and Ball revolvers do not load from the muzzle and are most definitely NOT muzzleloaders.  As a non-muzzleloader pistol, they would be legal for small game only if 23 caliber or under.    It is a common mistake to think of all black powder firearms as muzzleloaders, but they are not.   For instance the Ferguson breech loading flint rifle,  The Sharps breech loading percussion, the Burnside Carbine, Hall, Green, etc.  All use black powder, but none of them are Muzzleloaders.  My father is a retired Pa Game Commission WCO. 

Got to the PGC web site and checks the laws and regs for those firearms legal for small game.  (The caliber restrictions do not apply to wood chucks per the regs)  The folks at the PGC do their best, however, the PGC in general and even their legal staff are sadly ignorant of all firearms that are not centerfire, rimfire or muzzleloader.   

Just to save you the effort, from the Pa Game Regs, Title 58:

§ 141.22. Small game.
 (a)  Unlawful acts. It is unlawful to:

   (5)  Unless otherwise provided in the act or this title, hunt or take small game with anything other than a shotgun with fine shot, muzzleloading rifle or handgun .40 caliber or less, rifle or handgun less than .23 caliber, or bow and arrow with or without broadheads. The caliber restrictions do not apply to rifles or handguns while hunting woodchuck.

Again,  a cap and ball revolver is NOT a muzzleloader handgun.  It does not load from the muzzle. 


Offline KeepTryin

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 131
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2009, 04:14:25 PM »
I believe, according to the book, that Wisconsin allows something (according to the bullet weight/charge formula correct me if I'm wrong) like my Walker to be used during regular gun season. Haven't tried it. May not be a bad idea next time the Father In Law sends me into dense prickly ash to 'Maybe flush out a buck'. I have little doubt since I've had my Uberti Walker since '91- that it would drop bambi no problem given halfway decent... or maybe even lousy placement.

Offline bubba15301

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Gender: Male
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2009, 04:19:30 PM »
direct from game commission
BUBBA

Offline longcaribiner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2009, 02:32:54 AM »
Bubba, my father was a supervisor for the SE division office of the PGC for nearly 15 years before he retired.   It happened dozens of times over the years that folks answering questions, either misunderstood the questions, or folks misunderstood the answers, or even oputright wrong information was given.  Regardless of whatever some sub-minion at the PGC may have told you, the law is the law.  And the law trumps whatever you may have been told or thought you heard.  I've even seen cases where the PGC put things in writing in  the game news that wasn't true under the law.   That a cap and ball revolver does not load from the muzzle is a simple fact.     You could also argue that since the fire goes through a hole in the center of the nipple, that they are centerfire.  It just aint so.

Have you ever read the Digest?  It says right in there that what is printed is NOT the law and the law controls over whatever the Game Commission digest says.  What some unknowing person at the PGC may have told you does not alter the law, or the fine you get if caught. For your sake, I hope you got the name and number of the person you talked to, because somebody at the office told me yadda yadda is one of the oldest crock of crap defenses used by folks who get caught and cited for violations.  District magistrates hear that one in about 20 percent of all the game law hearings. Good luck on that one. 

Offline bubba15301

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Gender: Male
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2009, 12:13:04 PM »
caribener
BUBBA

Offline bubba15301

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Gender: Male
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2009, 12:19:56 PM »
logcaribener -i guess you know everything-the game commission enforces the law they should know what is legal and what is not
BUBBA

Offline S.S.

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2840
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2009, 04:59:47 PM »
Does everybody drive exactly the speed limit too?
I think not. I hunt with what I have also. I am not a sport hunter,
I hunt to put meat on the table. And after all, it is legal
in my state to hunt hogs with air rifles! That makes me wonder
about the wisdom of those who make the rules anyway.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline longcaribiner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2009, 06:46:36 PM »
well Bubba, I am astonished.  I printed the exact section of the a Law that says no cap and ball revolvers except under 23 caliber, which by the way would be clear to any Jr. high school reader, and you continue to say they told you different.  If some delusional cop told you it was ok to rob a bank would you believe it?    I asked for the name and number of the person you talked to.  You stated nothing more except the commission should know what the law is.  Well I gave you the law in black and white and yet you choose to not read it.   Your response is that they should know what the law is.  The law is clear and easy to read. It was put there for you to read.  I seriosly doubt that anyone at the PGC ever told you that a cap and ball revolver under 40 caliber is legal for small game, simply because it isn't.     I think you made it up.  If you really called and got an answer, you would have a number at least and any resonable person would have gotton the name of the person as well.  I'll make it easy for you.  Come Monday, we get on a conference call to the PGC's legal office and speak to an assistant attorney general and get an answer.  If, after I get to cite the above law, they still say you are right, I'll buy you two cases of beer.  However, if they say I am right, you have to buy me a case of beer.     What could be fairer?   I'll even pay for the calls.   ( i like Pabst Blue Ribbon, so you get off cheap)

Offline bubba15301

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Gender: Male
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2009, 09:09:37 AM »
if it is not a muzzleloading handgun what is it? its not rimfire or centerfire > what is it?
BUBBA

Offline longcaribiner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 376
Re: BP Revolver Hunting
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2009, 09:06:06 PM »
There are many types of firearm ignition.  Rimfire and centerfire are just two types f fixed ammo ignition.  No matter what typr of firearm, there are three basic places to load,  the breech, the muzzle and in the middle and even a combination of these.  Of the types of ignition, there is matchlock, wheel loock, flint lock, tape primer, percussion, needle fire, rim fire, centerfire and electric.  Even during flint lock days, there were breech loaders.  Ferguson, a famous Scot marksman, invented a flintlock, breech loading rifle that was manufactured and imported to the colonies for use by the British troops in the 1770's.  There were percussion breech loaders, like the Jenks monkeytail, the Sharps percussion breechloader, Maynard, and others.  Though they used black powder and a flint, or percussion ignition system, they were breech loaders.  In the 1830's the first bolt action rifle was patented.  It fired a caseless cartridge, which was ignited by a needle being thrust forward into the base of the cartridge, the roughened surface of the needle would strike match material causing ignition.  It is another type of breech loader that was not rim fire or centerfire, but was the direct ancestor of the bolt action rifle.  The 1840's Volcanic Arms lever actions were needle fire ignition guns, and they made lever action pistols as well as rifles.        A muzzleloader is simply a gun that loads from the muzzle.  Some of the most accurate guns eer made, were centerfire ignition guns that were made to have the cartridge full of powder inserted in the breech and the bullet loaded from the muzzle. (Google the gunsmith Harry Pope, who made many of them)    Then there are those odd guns that do not load from the breech or the muzzle.  These include such firearms as the cap and ball revolver or the swivel breech Greene and Hall rifles.  The entire breech of the gun swiveled upward and the powder and ball would be loaded from the front of the chamber and then swiveled back down in line with the barrel.    So when the Pa legislature & Pa Game Commission wrote the regs they included rim fire and centerfire, which are two types of igntion generally used in breech loaders and all muzzleloaders, referring to the guns that load from the front, regardless of ignition.         The list does not include all types of firearms ignition nor all types of places to load guns.       A Ferguson flint lock breech loading rifle, while historically correct for the revolutionary war, is not a muzzleloader and not rim fire or centerfire, and therefore is not legal for hunting in Pa. for deer or small game.  Same for the breech loading percussion rifles such as the early Sharps and Maynards.    So you question assumes that all firearms fall into one of the three categories, of muzzleloader, rim fire or centerfire, but there are dozens od designs of firearms that are not included in those three.   The cap and ball revolver is probably the most commonly encountered firearm that does not fall into one of those three categories.

Now I fault the Game Commission for the way the regulations are written.  Certainly a Sharps Breech loading percussion rifle of 54 caliber and capable of using 80 grains of powder is more powerful than many centerfire cartridges that are legal for deer, but yet, the gun may not be legally used for deer in Pa.  Nor for small game.  A Ferguson flint lock breech loader is also equally powerful, but not legal for deer in Pa.  Not just muzzleloader season, but all seasons.  It isn't legal for large or small game under the Pa regs. 

So if I call the commission and get some busy distracted person and ask, can I use my ferguson flint lock during the early muzzleloader season, the person at the commission is likely to hear flint lock and assume it is a muzzleloader and will 98% of the time say (incorrectly) yes.  If  were to ask if my Ferguson Flint lock BREECH LOADING rifle is legal for deer in PA, the commssion emplyee will most likely say (correctly) NO.     Alot of people mistakenly classify all black powder arms as Muzzleloaders, but that is not the case.  There were all kinds of firearms that used black powder but were not muzzleloaders.