Author Topic: My 45-120 ROCKS!  (Read 7269 times)

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Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #90 on: April 13, 2009, 07:17:23 PM »
40k WHAT...CUP OR PSI?? ??? ;D ::)

I don't push the envelope either and wouldn't talk you into or out of anything you feel isn't healthy...the pressures I posted aren't excessive and are well within the capacity of the NEF.

A 500 gr bullet a 2200fs is plenty...basically the same as a 458 Lott...and the Lott is a well known killer of mad beasties all over the world.

The 430 gr Trueshot order came in so along with putting the finishing touches on the 12GaFH thumbhole stock steel through bolt support rod I pulled out the 458 WM and cranked off a few 45-70, -90, and -100 rounds...I had turned down the rims to 0.570" OD on 10 cases each so they would feed through the 458 WM magazine but found a few glitches in the priming end...the rim is too small for the Lee hand primer....I would have to  pull the barrel and reaming out the receiver to handle the full diameter rim...or make a shell holder...it will have to be single fed and really of no value what-so-ever other than the fact I would have bragging rights to being able to shoot 4 different size cases and could load the cartridges to 3.4" COAL which would add quite a bit of case capacity...make it split the difference between the 458 WM and the 458 Lott with the 45-100 case.  Not sure if I want to go to all that trouble when I could just buy some 458 Lott cases and not have to do all the other required work.  Always something to decide and to futz with... ::) :o ;D

Anyway...life goes on and I get fatter... >:(

Luck on your projects.

Offline tykempster

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #91 on: April 14, 2009, 03:31:13 AM »
Quick told me in the 45-70 to 45-120 cases CUP and PSI are almost the same.

Offline quickdtoo

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Offline charles p

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #93 on: April 14, 2009, 04:37:34 AM »
Can you safely put more smokeless powder in the 45-90, and 45-120, than you can in the 45-70?

Unless you are using black powder, does the larger case add anything to velocity.  What is your max chamber pressure?

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #94 on: April 14, 2009, 04:54:58 AM »
Higher velocities at lower pressure are possible with the larger cases, for example, in the 45-120, a 500gr bullet @ 1800fps is easily achieved at less than 29kcup, the same velocity in a 45-70 would require nearly 50kcup, source is published data, Hodgdon 45-120 and Hornady 6th 45-70 Ruger #1.

Tim

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Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #95 on: April 14, 2009, 12:30:16 PM »
Good information to know although my concern would be someone getting mixed up or not understanding all the ramifications, using that information in the wrong platform and the wrong way and getting a bad surprise...everything in this sport is dangerous and Murphy is always waiting.

The question Charles P asked really points that up...even though it is a good, valid question....at least to my way of thinking...the obvious difference in case capacities should have been the key flag...no flame or diss intended...and a visit to just about any reloading manual would have answered that quickly.

I've been at this too long...I forget how I was in the early days and the headaches I gave to my mentors... ::) :-[

Luck on your projects.


Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #96 on: April 15, 2009, 08:06:53 AM »
The 1/2" brass stock came in yesterday...my inquiries on a Savage switch barrel 500 AR conversion are panning out...the weather is supposted to start warming up...I'm taking my 12GaFH barrel to town today for the forend mount welding...so now I can get started on the bullet making project along with the forend bedding...and maybe get a barrel/dies on order...It's always hurry up and wait, then work your fingers to the bone...Hahahahahahaha

Enjoy your toys...

Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #97 on: April 17, 2009, 06:57:10 AM »
Here's ONE...Johnny...



At least it LOOKs like it will shoot... :-\  ???

Still haven't finalized the design....this one took 2 hours to make including grinding a bit to turn the 0.050" wide grooves and getting all the angles set up...brass is SO wiggly...still will take at least 30 min per bullet once all the setups are optimized just because brass bends while turning so small cuts, slow speeds and slow advance...still gratifying to know I-kin-doowit.  hahahahahah

I looked into the possibility of doing a stub barrel 50-140 also...a #8 taper or cylinder barrel 32" tossing 750 gr slugs, BC 1 plus at 22-2400fs would be quite the thing...not exactly a 50 BMG but maybe his chubby younger/older/???/sister/uncle/brother/stanger???...hahahahaha

Enjoy your toys

Offline tykempster

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #98 on: April 17, 2009, 12:50:28 PM »
Very nice!  What would something the size of a 500 grain "elephant" bullet weigh and would it penetrate the same?


Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #99 on: April 17, 2009, 01:14:57 PM »
This one weighs 360 gr and is 1.5" long.  Brass has a lower density than lead so a 500 gr bullet would be about 2" to 2.5" long depending on the nose shape...just like Barnes monometal bullets...long for their weight.  1.5" is good for a 20 twist but as you get longer you need the twist to tighten up a bit or speed the bullet up...there are always limits to consider...velocity limits, bullet length limits, bullet construction limits, bullet shape limits and so forth.

Luck on your projects.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #100 on: April 17, 2009, 05:25:48 PM »
I dunno there NFG...  :-\  The shape just doesn't seem right.  ( I can ell I'm fixin to go on and on like I'm critiqueing one of my baby lawyer's briefs!   :D )

'course I was never a fan of spire points...  ::)
got to be a target bullet... no way it is a suitable hunting bullet... for obvious reasons...  8)

send me a few dozen... sorry as they are I'll try 'em out for you...  ;D
Richard
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Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2009, 07:10:41 AM »
Yeah...longer nose, shorter shank, more boat tail and some curves...maybe, or???...it's basically a copy of the Hornady .375 scaled up with less bearing surface, a boat tail and a slightly longer nose...Actually it has the almost the same proportions as the Golden Mean...it SHOULD be perfect...LOL  Sticking out of the 458 WM it looks just right, but not quite right on the 45-120...but totally mean anyway!!!!

See how your are ATlLaw, still stuck in the past...Hey...this is the year 2009...we're MODERN...new ideas...gotta challange the status quo...get the blood to moving...I donneednostiknroundheads... ::) :o ;D  hahahahahahah

I could copy the shape of a 50BMG  or A-Max bullet scaled down to a max of about 1.75"???  I do like the many small grooves though...looks like a North Fork bullet doesn't it???  Reduces bore friction...more velocity, less pressure.

I could just use Barnes 500 gr XFB .458 bullet like ANY sane person would do...but NO...I gotta do it MYSELF and BE DIFFERENT...my own design will cost 5 times what the hidoller Barnes cost...something about that doesn't seem quite right.  :-\ ???  Hahahhah

Anyway...I will be sure to send you a passel when I get them finalized....minimal cost plus profit...you know...time and materials, wastage, shipping and handling cost, artistic percentage, time spent on design and patient costs added in and amortized...shouldn't cost more than about $50 bucks a bullet in lots of 100... ;D ??? :o  Hahahahahahahahah

Luck on your projects.

Offline Jimbo47

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2009, 09:27:24 AM »
Sounds like a heck of a deal to me! ;D
My culled down Handi's are the 45-70, and then I have a few others to keep it company...357 Mag/Max. .45 LC/.454 Casull Carbine, .243 Ultra, and 20 gauge Tracker II.

Offline tykempster

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2009, 06:24:50 PM »
How about a 1.5" bullet with a freakin' huge meplet for some bigtime shock.  Something like that beer keg shaped 12 GAFH projectile that RIP made.

Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2009, 08:11:10 PM »
One of these big enough?? :o ::) ;D



Left to right

1.   12GaFH x 3.85"  Blown out 50BMG case with some refinements.
2.   0.458" x 1.5" - 360 gr
3.   0.458" x 1.75" - 390 gr
4.   50BMG 0.510" x 2.50" - 700 gr WWII souvenir
5.   12GaFH brass slug 0.730" x 1.35" - 1100gr
6.   12GaFH lead slug 0.730" x 1.025" - 1035 gr
7.   12GaFH lead slug 0.735" x 0.730" - 730 gr from Dixie Slugs
8.   3.5" 12 ga case

A 0.458" brass x 1.5" with a large meplat similar to most truncated nosed cast lead slugs, or like the "Beerkeg" slug, or a scaled down RR 720 T-Rex bullet would weigh 425-475 gr...about 0.500" at 0.458"d for seating and 1" at 0.448"d for boreriding.  I have one like the beerkeg planned for tomorrow, but it will have the grooves like those I turned out in the picture.

Hey if you want a BIG, freaking slug...you gotta have a BIG, freaking shooter...my 12GaFH fills that slot in spades.  I will get a picture of the finished shooter when it's finished...duh... ::)...the forend bedding is cooling right now.  :D

Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2009, 11:16:44 AM »
While I'm chow'n'down I thought I would post this one I just finished...465 gr, 1.5", 0.300" dia meplat...plus a bit of a hollow point...3/8 center drill just for kicks...want it without the HP...No problem...meplat could be larger up to no taper at all...just a flying "solid brass cylindrical roundthing"... ;D...talk about ZERO BC... ??? :o



Now back to turning some 500 AR dummies out of ALUM...Hornady 416 Rigby's are no where in sight...Norma's are $4 bucks apiece...nowayhosaye...not for making dummies.

Luck on your projects.


Offline JerryKo

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #106 on: April 19, 2009, 02:53:36 PM »
Looks good NFG.  ;)

I'm lazy.  AtlLaw,...where'd ya order that 120 taper crimper from.  DOn't have time to search.  Going to order my dies tonight. ;D  Getting closer.

Jerry
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #107 on: April 19, 2009, 03:02:08 PM »
I think he got it direct from Lyman, Midsouth and Track are out of them, but Midway has it.

Tim

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Offline tykempster

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #108 on: April 19, 2009, 04:48:38 PM »
Is there anything "wrong" with a wadcutter bullet?  I've just never seen a wadcutter rifle bullet, it seems like at ranges under 100 yards it would give the most smack without the horrible BC showing itself.  The 720 grain meplat looks pretty impressive, if you could just do it in brass it would be FAST and deadly, and plain mean looking.

Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #109 on: April 19, 2009, 07:55:04 PM »
No...nothing "wrong" with a wadcutter in the strictest sense...right and wrong have more to do with what the "perception" of right and wrong are...and is more related to usage...full penetration VS limited penetration...long range VS short range...straight line VS the possibility of the bullets course being re-directed...mushrooming VS none at all...it all varies with the game you are hunting, the size, dangerous or not, thick skinned or not...etc.

A flat nosed bullet won't penetrate as far as a pointy one because the flat nose causes all kinds of drag...Cup and core bullets are designed to penetrate a bit, start mushrooming, dump all the energy into the central cavity and stop...mono-metal bullets are designed to penetrate as far as possible without much deformation...some of the solids could be reused for the amount of damage to them caused by the animals innards.

The big flat nosed bullet dumps velocity quickly, which also means it dumps energy quickly...something not so very good...you don't shoot animals at the muzzle so MV doesn't really mean much...what your really want is velocity/energy calculated at the range you expect to kill...wadcutters may have all kinds of energy at the muzzle but at 150-300 yds it is altogether another bucket of worms.  Killing is about more than just how much the rifle kicks, how big the case is or how heavy the bullet is...you have to consider ALL the factors them pick the best bullet for the job.

The long, slightly tapered, "hollow point" I posted would punch right through an animal including an elephant or buff without deforming very much even with the hole in the nose.  The slight amount of nose taper would give it an edge in penetration over a cylindrical one...plus it just looks like a bullet.  It's a "truncated" nose type, meaning partly cut off...nothing more than a pointy bullet with the pointy part of the nose cut back.

Many of the bullets for DG have almost a wadcutter profile...semi-wadcutter more to the point...some are cup pointed...they are designed for max slap at close range, penetration through heavy skulls (with or without horns) and bones and thick hide and muscle and no deflection off line.

A CNC machine can make ANY shape or design almost...just depends on the ability of the code cruncher and how many axes the machine has...some of the CNC mills have up to 7 axes and can do wonders...wish I had one...

To make a round nosed bullet I have to grind/cut a cutting tool with the correct profile...not hard to do...I need to make a "rounder" for 3/16", 1/4", 5/16" and 3/8"...I've been cheating a bit using a mill corner rounder set up in a tool holder and stuck in the tool post....works great for brass and alum.

The reason you don't see too many shoot wadcutters in a rifle is the need for the bullet to go farther than 100 yds without a rainbow trajectory, but you can shoot a 38 or 9mm wadcutter in a 35 cal rifle...they are relatively low velocity and drop like a rock...some people like them for short range work or practice...lots of pros and cons. They weigh 158 gr...just about the same as a "normal" jacketed bullet and you could push them to 2000fs or a bit more depending on the "hardness" of the lead and the type of lube...so they are not just for pistols.

I saw one guy at a range shooting 38 hollow based wadcutters seated upside down in a 358 W...they really looked strange poking out of the case but was very accurate out to 75 yds at about 1800 fs MV, and that soft skirt opened up to about 5/8" OD when it hit something hard.  He said they worked great on just about anything out to about 50 yards including coyote, deer, pigs, rabbits...I never tried them but might now that I have a 356 W...single load...just for kicks...something else to play with and no time to do it.

Anyway...a 350-400 gr brass bullet can be run 2500-2800 fs in the 45-120...and zip right through just about any animal with or without a point out to 150 yds opr so...beyond that the laws of physics start playing all their little games.

Luck on your projects.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #110 on: April 20, 2009, 06:42:37 AM »
where'd ya order that 120 taper crimper from.

Hey Jerry!
Tim's right, I ordered direct from Lyman.  Cost more but I'm the type that if I want something, I want it NOW!   :-[  And it was only 2 or 3 beers at a local watering hole extra...  ;D
Richard
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #111 on: April 20, 2009, 01:00:52 PM »
You guys ought to go into business.........check the prices on the .458's at Lehigh Bullets:


http://lehighbullets.com/categories.asp
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Offline AtlLaw

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #112 on: April 20, 2009, 05:09:49 PM »
check the prices on the .458's at Lehigh Bullets:

And I thought what I paid Montana Bullet Works for some 500 gr. cast bullets was bad!   :o
Richard
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Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #113 on: April 20, 2009, 05:57:14 PM »
Yeah...Lehigh's are pricey but those BIG BRASS BEERKEGS  are $3.00 apiece and that 12GaFH brass is $10.00 a pop...OUCH. 

CNC machine time is running for $75 to $150 an hour plus material...2 hour minimum.  I don't know why...the machines are so automated once you start the run you can go watch TV, a DVD or take a nap...the guy in my neck of the woods has another job...he sets the machines up for a run, punches GO and heads for his other job...he runs the machines day and night making all kinds of neat things for use in all kinds of products...knobs, small gears and wheels for toy cars...He wasn't into bullet making and wouldn't get into it anyway as his machines run pretty much fulltime...but has some time available now and then to fit me in once I decide what design to use.

Another one for Ty...this one weighs 511 gr and the meplat is 0.415" OD, that's bigger than the 720 T-Rex'ers by 0.100"... ::)...just a slight amount of taper to make it look more like a bullet rather than a flying trash can...The two "dummy cartridges" on either side are for magazine/feed work on the 490/500 AR project I'm starting on.  Will work through just about any standard receiver as the COAL is 3.35" and could be shortened enough to work through M98's also.  I know sorta OT...I'll quit it.



Luck on your projects.

Offline JerryKo

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #114 on: April 21, 2009, 01:00:22 AM »
Thanks again Tim, and Richard.

Its all coming together nicely.  Even on my end. ;D
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Offline tykempster

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #115 on: April 21, 2009, 04:22:13 PM »
I like that last one.  How much would those cost, I would be interested in them or maybe a 400 or 450 grain version for deer hunting next year.

Offline NFG

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #116 on: April 21, 2009, 07:10:47 PM »
I have no idea...pricey to say the least...I haven't ran any of these bullets past the CNC man yet...trying to save my nervous system. ::) ;D...4 ft of 1/2" brass was $35.00...a 450gr would be roughly 1.3" long plus .200" wastage, roughly $1.10 plus a least a buck to turn plus shipping/handling...a good hard cast lead bullet would do just as good a killing job and be a LOT cheaper.  I think the Lazer-Cast 430 gr Trueshot or Bearthooth 425 gr would be excellent bullets to use for deer anyway...or just about ANY LFNGC between 400 and 500 gr for that matter.

Now I see why the LeHigh bullets are so spendy... :o :( ;D 

I liked the hollowpointy one though...with a little larger hole the edge would act like a spinning knife for a little ways anyway...maybe deeper and put some notches on it. ::)

Once I get the magazine for the 500 AR working I will turn some points on a few of the 720's and try them out...basically just a long taper to a 0.250" meplat...that will bring the weigh down to 650-675gr I would guess.  ;D 8)

Luck on your projects.

Offline brianscott12

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #117 on: April 24, 2009, 11:21:25 AM »
If I wanted to rechamber my 45/70 buff. classic to a 45/120, would it lower the value of the gun?
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #118 on: April 24, 2009, 11:46:21 AM »
As with any rechamber/wild cat, depends on who wants it and how bad, a search in the classifieds will give you an idea.  ;)

Tim

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Offline brianscott12

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Re: My 45-120 ROCKS!
« Reply #119 on: April 24, 2009, 12:40:49 PM »
Thanks Tim, I can always go to 45/120 but can never go back to 45/70. Thought about getting a less expensive used handi and doing it to it. Any thoughts.        Really love my bc. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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