Author Topic: wildcats on a 223 case (Read 4559 times)

rickyp · « **on:** September 02, 2003, 11:08:58 AM »

I know that the all tcu rounds and the 17 rem. are made from 223 brass what other rounds are made from the 223?

John Traveler · « **Reply #1 on:** September 02, 2003, 12:04:31 PM »

Isn't there a heavy-bullet .30 on the .223 case called the Whisper? Allegedly for military applidations like quietly taking out sentries and dogs using a silencer?

John

rickyp · « **Reply #2 on:** September 02, 2003, 12:10:58 PM »

no the whisper is on the 221 fireball case

KYODE · « **Reply #3 on:** September 02, 2003, 01:07:56 PM »

6x45(or 6mm/.223) is one good one that comes to mind. then the 6x47 is made on the .222mag case. two dandys!

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** September 03, 2003, 04:23:32 AM »

Why doesn't someone just straight-case that darn thing and come up with a longer round than the 351 Winchester Self Loader - should make a great woods/brush/deer/bear/hog cartridge from a carbine length platform. And, while you're at it, do the same thing with the 7.62x39 AK round and come up with a longer 401 Winchester Self Loader - should make an even better woods/brush/deer/bear/hog round. Mikey.

John Traveler · « **Reply #5 on:** September 03, 2003, 07:12:50 AM »

Hi, Mikey!

In answer to why they don't just stretch the .223 case and blow it out for a nice carbine-medium game round, simple.

In small arms and medium caliber cannon automatic arms design there is a principle where the diameter-to-length ratio of a cartridge case reaches a point that reliable feeding becomes marginal or unacceptable. This is particularly true when the cartridge case has minimum body taper, such as the .223/.222 Remington Magum series, and applies to the proposed extra-long .401 Self-Loader too.

The .223/222 Rem Magnum represents the optimum/maximum case length for reliable functioning in autoloading small arms for that size case head.

Now, you certainly CAN go to a longer case in manually-operated weapons, but why bother? There are plenty of other "fat body" cases that give you good performance without having to develope a new case.

HTH
John

Mikey · « **Reply #6 on:** September 03, 2003, 10:11:36 AM »

That helps. Thanks John!. Mikey.

Paul McC · « **Reply #7 on:** September 04, 2003, 01:23:00 PM »

Gday fellas,
      The .223 Remington case seems to worked best when modified to calibres of .30 calibre or less when the case is left longer, so there is at least some resemblance of a shoulder, and up to 9mm or .357 when shortened to a pistol length.

   Cartridges of the World, 6th Edition, (p 181) mentions the problems associated with a .338 wildcat called the .338-223 Straight. These were, head spacing (no shoulder), and case splitting during the forming process. Many years ago, Jeff Cooper and, or his contemporaries shortened the more strongly built .223 case to make a Super 9mm; they managed close to 2000fps with light weight bullets out of a 1911 Colt auto. I hate to think of the pressures they were generating.

   I agree with John, there does not seem to be much point in trying to go longer in a case of the .223s base diameter. As for shorter, I am currently building a new barrel for a Unique (brand name) .32 S&W Long target pistol. The idea is to use a shortened .223 case to produce a small bottlenecked case for .30 or .32 calibre in an attempt to improve feeding and case life in this blowback, target auto pistol not to increase its ballistic performance. The original barrel chamber (.32 S&W Long) is relieved to the point where the base of fired cases, on the lower side, expands to, almost rim diameter, after firing.

Paul

Mikey · « **Reply #8 on:** September 05, 2003, 04:17:19 AM »

Paul McC: Buenos Morning to ya. You mentioned building or wanting to build a 30 or 32 caliber pistol on a 223 case base, citing Cooper's work building a 9mm on that case.

Cooper wasn't the only one who did that. It was the only alternative a number of eyars ago for folks who shot 9mm Largos but couldn't get the loaded cartridges or brass and the slightly rimmed 38 Supers wouldn't chamber properly.

There are some cartridges out there that may reduce the amount of effort you need to put into your project. You mentioned a 32 S&W Long caliber - the case on that cartridge, I believe, is about as long as the 30/7.65mm Luger, quite a capable and accurate round. It operates within Luger pistol toggle action pressures, so it is not a magnum round by any means but will throw a 93 grain .310 bullet to 1280'/sec, original loading. Now, that's a 32 caliber. For 30 caliber, you have the 30 Mauser/7.62x25mm Tokarev cartridge, which may be a bit longer than the 32 S&W long, that takes a .308 diameter 88 grain bullet but as fast as 1400'/sec. Both cartridges are, literally, based on a 9mm case head, as the 9mm was an offspring of the 7.65/30 Luger.

If you are not interested in those, there is a new NAA (North American Arms) cartridge in 32 caliber - it is a necked down 380 auto round that fires a 32 acp bullet out to about 1200'/sec. The 32 (310 dia) caliber pistol bullets in jacketed form that I am aware of go from 60 grains to 71, 73, 77 and 93 grains. In 30 caliber (308) you can find them at 85, 88, 100 and up. Hope this helps and good luck. Mikey.

Paul McC · « **Reply #9 on:** September 05, 2003, 06:27:16 PM »

Gday Mikey,
Ive been through the options you mentioned, and I chose the .223 case fore the following reasons.

1. The pistol Im converting is a Unique (French made) blowback auto, target pistol chambered for .32 S&W long wad cutter only (lead bullets only in the ISSF centerfire match); the .223 base diameter is a better fit in the magazine than the 9mm based rounds.

2. Safety. I did not like the idea of someone attempting to fire one of the rounds you mentioned in a lightly built, blowback action.

3. Once fired .223 brass costs me about the same as the 9mm, and less than the longer 7.62 pistol cases; because I still have not decided if Ill make it a short case or a longer, .95 inch, case for wad cutters only. I might try both.

4. The narrower base and thicker brass head of the .223 will help reduce the unnecessary internal powder space associated with a lot of rounds pressed into target duty.

5. Finally practicality. Youve gotta be kidding, if I was going to be practical, Id leave it as a .32 S&W Long wad cutter gun and look for something else to blame my poor scores on!

Heck! Four out of five is still a pass isnt it?

crapshoot · « **Reply #10 on:** September 07, 2003, 05:19:06 AM »

Dont forget the tac 20 . 223 case necked down to a .204 bullet and a little differend angle on the shoulder. I have one in an AR. extreemly accurate.

Kurt Heckman · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2004, 08:05:28 PM »

I've got some 300whisper 125gr that I bought from Corbon that has parent case .223.

BruceP · « **Reply #12 on:** January 19, 2004, 01:05:42 PM »

Actually Kurt the 300 Whisper's parent case is the 221 Fireball. It can be made from the 223 Remingtion but it has to be cut down.
BruceP

Kurt Heckman · « **Reply #13 on:** January 19, 2004, 06:51:10 PM »

Guess I was just answearing Rickyp's initial question. Kurt

BruceP · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2004, 10:38:53 AM »

Kurt, I went back to the top and re-read the begining post and I guess you did at that. I was thinking of cartridges that were full lenght and changed bullet diameter, taper, shoulder angle and such but that is not really what was asked. My mistake.
BruceP

bgood · « **Reply #15 on:** January 23, 2004, 09:51:49 AM »

Fellas, somewhere a good while back I read of a 30 cal projectile loaded in a full length .223 cartridge case and was called a .30 Apache. Haven't been able to locate the info again. Any of you ever hear of this one?

earlburd · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2004, 03:48:42 PM »

I have an H&R bolt rifle built off sako action in 17/223 wildcat

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 26, 2004, 01:45:22 PM »

257 Kimber-shoulder blown forward, very straight, dies from Redding. Runs right with a 250 Savage. 6x45 on the standard 223. 6x47 on the 222 Mag case dominated benchrest for a while. 25x47, a 257 bullet in the 222 Mag by Wayne Blackwell. Huntington brings in a 50mm long rimmed case in this diameter that Mike Bellm uses for the 5.6, 6 and 6.5mm Bellm's. Australia has a 222 rimmed. I know there are more, just can't think...

Fla Brian · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2004, 07:21:52 AM »

Sam Fadala writes rather fondly of his 6mm-.222 wildcat. This could also be formed from .223 brass. Of course, it would be a lot easier to just neck up the full length case to 6X45 as .223 brass is far easier to come by than .222.

Frankly, I like the idea of a staright wall case based on the .223. It could be chambered to headspace on the case mouth like pistol cartridges. I remember shooting alongside a young man who had built a .44 Auto Mag on a Remington 700 action. It headspaced on the case mouth and worked just fine.

Doc RD · « **Reply #19 on:** April 28, 2004, 05:55:15 PM »

James Calhoon is doing a good business with his .19/223 wildcat. He has also done the Hornet in .19 caliber. Both seem to be sweet shooters from the write-ups that I've read. <www.jamescalhoon.com> if you want to read more. BTW, I have NO conection with his or his company.

Doc RD

papajohn428 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 08, 2004, 01:02:37 PM »

bgood, the 30 Apache was the 223 necked up to 30 cal, with a teeny little shoulder, and if memory serves, was developed by Joe Apache, somewhere in New Mexico, in the mid 80's, I think. It was written up (very briefly) in Gun Digest a year or so later, by Roy Dunlap. Joe used very long pointed bullets over a case full of 4198. Case loss was minimal, and accuracy was said to be quite good, with velocity still supersonic at 600 meters. It was primarily developed as a light-recoiling silhouette cartridge, and may also be listed in the COW #9.

As for making the 223 into a 9mm, I've never understood how that was possible. Isn't the base diameter too small? Can somebody explain that to me? :?

PJ

Donna · « **Reply #21 on:** May 17, 2004, 01:50:18 AM »

rickyp

I have a friend that made herself a single shot, bolt action AR in .223 AI. She can push a 69-grain bullet to 3800+ fps while the typical competition AR in .223 is pushing only 2800 to 2900 fps, it also makes a big difference that the competition ARs are gas operated while hers is not in addition to being an AI. Im making her a 90-grain bullet that she is capable of pushing at 2700 fps. The 90-grainers out of her 1:7.7 twist barrel stated to stabilize nicely above 2400 fps. Shes able to shoot one-hole groups. I think that type of performance from a .223 AI is fantastic. And of course Im pleased with my bullet too. Its nice when a project comes together.

Donna

clodbuster · « **Reply #22 on:** October 09, 2004, 01:54:51 PM »

Rickyp The Thompson Center Contender used wildcats based on 223 necked up to 6mm,257.264.270.7mm. They were called "6mmTCU" for the inventor Wes Ugalde.