Magic powder?

[coyotejoe]

Looking at the new Marlin lever guns, .308 and .338, we are told you can't duplicate their velocities with handloads because Hornady loads them with a special powder not available to reloaders. I find that hard to believe. Looking at the powders which ARE available there is so much duplication and overlap that there is in no case just ONE powder so outstanding as to produce velocities 200 fps faster than several other powders. For example, I'm presently working with the .375 Winchester and am told that Reloader-7 is THE powder for the .375W. Well yes, it is a good one, seems about optimum, but I can duplicate or slightly exceed the velocities of RL-7 with AA-1680 or Vihtavouri N-120 and come very close with IMR-4198. Search data for any caliber you like and you will never find any one powder that is head and shoulders above all others. There may be one "best" but there will be several others that are very close.
 My point being that with an incredible number of powders available today I just don't think it possible to develop any new powder which is all that much different from some powders already available. I believe the dirty little secrete is that the new .308 and .338 Marlin are actually running considerably higher pressures than the old .307 Winchester or .356 Winchester. Being new cartridges Hornady is free to set their own standards and I believe they have set them higher than what we commonly call maximum for the Marlin lever action.
  What are your thoughts? Do you believe in the magic powder?   

[LONGTOM]

To me there is only three ways that could be possible and that is,
1- they have a new powder that no one else has
2- they have a mix of powder that no one can duplicate because they mixed it and ain't telling what it is
3- your answer of higer pressures

We know that companies mix their own powder and that mix changes all the time.
We also know that no one except them knows what that mix is, so it is possible for them to come up with a combination that the only way to duplicate it would be if you had their mixing data, and they ain't going to tell you that!


LONGTOM

[cwlongshot]

There is actually a couple more ways...  test the velocities in a longer barrel and at an altitude that is most favorable to higher velocities.

 What you found with your 375 and RL7, 1680 and Vihtavuori N-120 is very similar burning rates. SO, similar results will be the out come. I have zero experience with the Vihtavuori powders as they where not readily available to me. But I have loaded many many pounds of the RL7 and 1680 thru the years and more often then not you will find both or neither listed with any given caliber.

CW

[MZ5]

Take a look at Reloader 17 data.  You'll see that it does indeed achieve a couple hundred fps higher velocities (in some cartridges) than other powders, at least in the Reloader series.  The point, though, is that it is indeed possible to achieve higher velocities in a given cartridge (especially a brand new one) by custom tailoring a powder's burn characteristics specifically to that cartridge.

Combine that with loading processes that pack the powder in more tightly than we can with hand tools at home, a 4" longer barrel than the 'old standard' cartridges are normally shot out of, lighter bullets than are 'normally' loaded, and it's super-simple to get 200-300 fps more out of the Hornady factory rounds.

[LaOtto222]

Wow, you have opened a can of worms Powders may have a similar burn rate, but they can react differently under different pressures. Where one powder can do well at 30K psi it may not be linear up at higher pressures while another powder with a similar burn rate will not behave well at 30K psi but will at 50K psi. When tested at 40K they may be close to the same, but lower the pressure or raise the pressure and they react differently. I think it might have some thing to do with the powder composition (single based, double based, etc.) and the coatings they put on it. Another thought - in real life - velocities rarely match claimed velocities.

If you want a "magic" powder look at Lil'Gun in small capacity rifle cases. There are several people that claim they get several fps higher velocities with Lil' Gun over any other powder with lower pressures to boot. How is this possible? Just check out this forum with a search of Lil'Gun.

[coyotejoe]

That is funny because I have had dreadful experiences with Lil-Gun in .22 K Hornet, .30 Carbine, .357 Mag and .357 Max. I got bizar pressure spikes, up to 200 fps velocity variations from shot to shot and of course vertically strung groups. I sent sample rounds off to Hodgdon where their testing confirmed my own results but their attitude was like "so what?" And, no, my powder was not from the recalled lot. I dumped the last of it on the lawn.
 Now granted, I probably just happened to get one can that was "off" somehow, but that experience does not inspire me to try it again, how many other cans are "off". I was fortunate that I started with that can and its misbehavior was apparent early on. What would have been the outcome if I had already worked up good, warm but safe loads and then got that witches brew as my second can?

[coyotejoe]

There is actually a couple more ways...  test the velocities in a longer barrel and at an altitude that is most favorable to higher velocities.

 What you found with your 375 and RL7, 1680 and Vihtavuori N-120 is very similar burning rates. SO, similar results will be the out come. I have zero experience with the Vihtavuori powders as they where not readily available to me. But I have loaded many many pounds of the RL7 and 1680 thru the years and more often then not you will find both or neither listed with any given caliber.

CW

 My reason for bringing up RL-7, 1680 and N-120 was just to point out that there are so many powders available today that no one powder stands alone and I don't think there are any gaps to be filled. Maybe thirty years ago RL-7 did stand alone but there are a lot more powders to choose from today.

[Graybeard]

I will say only that you are mistaken in your base assumption.

[LaOtto222]

"That is funny because I have had dreadful experiences with Lil-Gun in .22 K Hornet, .30 Carbine, .357 Mag and .357 Max. I got bizar pressure spikes, up to 200 fps velocity variations from shot to shot and of course vertically strung groups." - coyotejoe

I have had the same experience with Lil'Gun in 2 different 22 Hornet rifles. 200 fps variation and awful groups. One round would be fine, the next a blown primer. I have heard that you can not get too much Lil'Gun in a case, just fill it up and compress your load with bullet seating. You will not get high pressures, basically you can not get enough Lil'Gun in a case to cause over pressure. That has not been my experience, even with minimum powder charges, I can get a blown primer. I have no explanation, just when run over a chronograph the results. I have tried it in a 221 Fireball too, without any blown primers, but still large variations in velocities from shot to shot and horrible accuracy.

[cwlongshot]

"That is funny because I have had dreadful experiences with Lil-Gun in .22 K Hornet, .30 Carbine, .357 Mag and .357 Max. I got bazaar pressure spikes, up to 200 fps velocity variations from shot to shot and of course vertically strung groups." - coyotejoe

I have had the same experience with Lil'Gun in 2 different 22 Hornet rifles. 200 fps variation and awful groups. One round would be fine, the next a blown primer. I have heard that you can not get too much Lil'Gun in a case, just fill it up and compress your load with bullet seating. You will not get high pressures, basically you can not get enough Lil'Gun in a case to cause over pressure. That has not been my experience, even with minimum powder charges, I can get a blown primer. I have no explanation, just when run over a chronograph the results. I have tried it in a 221 Fireball too, without any blown primers, but still large variations in velocities from shot to shot and horrible accuracy.

 I was just going to say this.. Lil' gun, in my experience is mush like H110 and 296... It does not much like reduced loads...I haven't used allot of Lil Gun. But my experience with it mirrors this. In the 500, I got strange things and occasional errant bullets. I hesitate to load it hotter as its doing what I want for velocity. So I simply use different powder in this voluminous case.

My reason for bringing up RL-7, 1680 and N-120 was just to point out that there are so many powders available today that no one powder stands alone and I don't think there are any gaps to be filled. Maybe thirty years ago RL-7 did stand alone but there are a lot more powders to choose from today.

I agree !!
 I didn't realise that this was your opinion, I thought it was an assumption and you where looking for agreement. I was simply pointing out that the similarities are a result from those powders burning rates.
As LaOtto222 pointed out, these will be different at different pressures, volumes and associated conditions, INSIDE the case. This is the BIGGEST reason you do not load, based solely on the burning rate charts.

CW

[Badnews Bob]

I say yes they do have MAGIC powders they don't sell us. It keeps money in they'er pockets. I've also read an article I believe in handloader mag, they took a hornady lite mag apart just to look and couldn't get all the powder back in the case, So they are useing diffrent tech to laod them too.  (they tried a drop tube)

Trade secrets are what makes money until the word gets out, thats why you constantly research new products.

[coyotejoe]

I say yes they do have MAGIC powders they don't sell us. It keeps money in they'er pockets. I've also read an article I believe in handloader mag, they took a hornady lite mag apart just to look and couldn't get all the powder back in the case, So they are useing diffrent tech to laod them too.  (they tried a drop tube)

Trade secrets are what makes money until the word gets out, thats why you constantly research new products.

Well I can see that, if you can manage to get more powder into the case it doesn't have to be a magic powder.

I'm glad to hear of other's experiences with Hodgdon's Lil Gun powder because when I brought it up a couple of years back everyone told me I just didn't know what I was talking about, that stuff was the best invention since the wheel. I tried it out in four different cartridges for which it was supposed to be suited and got the same bizarre results from all of them. Don't bother to tell Hodgdon because they simply don't care. I figured that over time, as more people have more experience with it, there will be more reports of strange behavior.