3 lost at sea off the coast of Florida, 1 survives..

[Cabin4]

Cabin4-
Let it rest,
 If you had half a life, you would be outside doing something dangerous, not sitting at a computer, beating a dead horse!

The report said they were 62 nautical miles off shore in 21 foot boat with a single engine. The only life saving equipment they had were life jackets. They anchored the boat in heavy seas for a boat that size. Based on their inexperience, as noted per the Coast Guard, the 63 degree water temperature and the sea advisories at that time, they pre-signed their own death warrants before they left the dock.

Mirage, Do you have a desire to want to go fishing for amberjack? Not much equipment or experience is required.

[mirage1988]

Let it rest.
Life is dangerous! Everything we do could kill us. You have filled five pages with the same nonsense. Yes, they made a mistake and yes they paid the ultimate price for it. The titanic was unsinkable too, how many died in that disaster?

[Cabin4]

Let it rest.
Life is dangerous! Everything we do could kill us. You have filled five pages with the same nonsense. Yes, they made a mistake and yes they paid the ultimate price for it. The titanic was unsinkable too, how many died in that disaster?

The White Star Line which was the operator of Titanic, was criticized for not having the proper amount of life boats as well as not heeding the warnings to slow down in an ice berg laden area. Setting aside the captains disregard for the ice berg warnings, had there been enough life boat capacity, deaths would likely have been minimal. The Titanic disaster resulted in new requirements that life boat capacity must meet or exceed on board capacity. There were othe rsweeping maritime changes due to the Titanic disaster.

Mirage, Good example of another ill prepared boat and not heeding the warnings. Does this bother you?

[mirage1988]

Sure is a good thing that idiots have such a strong lunged spokesman as you cabin! You didn't have much to say when God's hand set a plane down on the hudson without losing a life, or when a plane crashed into a house in buffalo, killing 51! Why are you beating this topic into the ground?

[mirage1988]

It has been statistically proven that accidents don't happen because of ONE contributing factor, they didn't die from cold water, they didn't die from a stuck anchor, they didn't die from high seas, they didn't sign their death warrants when they left the dock, they died from a combination of those factors! The plane crash in Buffalo happened because the pilots had the plane on auto-pilot and they had bad icing, the plane may have been improperly loaded, that hasn't came out yet. Car accidents are almost always a combination of factors- excessive speed, driver distracted, alcohol, sun glare, driving too fast for conditions, I could go on but you get my drift?

[Cabin4]

Sure is a good thing that idiots have such a strong lunged spokesman as you cabin! You didn't have much to say when God's hand set a plane down on the hudson without losing a life, or when a plane crashed into a house in buffalo, killing 51! Why are you beating this topic into the ground?

The pilots skill and experience in the case of the Hudson River emergency landing proved to be the deciding factor that saved those people’s lives. I believe I wrote about this event in a prior thread on that specific topic here. You can do search if interested to find it.

In the case of the Buffalo accident, the complete report is not out yet but when it’s available I plan to read it. I can share more details with you after that. But what we do know, which has been confirmed by the TSA investigators, is that the plane still had the auto pilot engaged when it hit the ground. The plane did not come in on a forward decline into the ground. Instead it hit the ground flat on the belly of the aircraft which tells us it had little or no forward momentum.

If you read the training manual for that aircraft and others, it tells the pilots to disengage the auto pilot under icing conditions. Failing to disengage it, prevents the pilot from feeling the avionic impacts of the ice buildup because the auto pilot keeps making the required on-course compensations without the pilots knowledge. When the ice buildup gets to the point where the avionic surfaces can longer compensate, the plane simply goes out of control. This appears to be the case in the Buffalo accident. What’s even more disturbing is that the pilot never disengaged the auto even after the plans behavior was violently out of control. It’s likely the pilot and co-pilot simply froze from fear and did not react due to lack of experience or training at that point. Given the pilots lack of disengaging the auto pilot earlier on in the approach and after the out of control situation, this will likely be concluded as pilot error.
We’ll see.

Does this help you Mirage?

[kinslayer1965]

Wow,

It has been a couple days since I checked in on this post and it seems to have gone a little wild. Now I don't under any circumstances want to seem uncaring because what happened is indeed a tragedy,,,,but in my opinion if the circumstance surrounding this tragedy are brushed over or not seen for what they are another tragedy is all to likely to occur. Often it is a sad fact that the more painful a lesson is the more likely it is to be remembered lesson.

I would like to comment on the anchored boat issue. If you are in rough seas in a small boat you are much better off with the motor running so you can control how you take the seas. A bow sea or a stern sea in infinately better than a beam sea. I would only have deployed the anchor if the motor had stopped running. I have come home safely in some rough seas by keeping the bow to the seas and making my way at a snails pace.

As my father told me many years ago a problem well defined is one half solved and a mistake clearly recognized for what it is less likely to be repeated. I don't think by pointing out the mistakes that were made means a person is uncaring or that they don't sympathize. I think it means they care more about avoiding a similar tragedy that they do about appearing politically correct.

As it has been said in this post people die everyday because of the choices they make, There were some bad choices made and to gloss this fact over is in my opinion not being responsible. What happened after the boat flipped....well as I said earlier after 30 plus hours in the water reason is not in great quantity. If this makes me a "winger" then so be it. Cabin i understand the point you are trying to make and don't really get the animosity that is being directed at you. Maybe I am dense as well.

My father who was infinately wiser than I am told me approach my limitations from the cautious side and most of my surprises will be pleasant ones. It has worked pretty well for me for 43 years. He also told me if you kicked everybodies ass who needed it you wouldn't have time to fish or hunt. Pretty sage for a man who had to quit school at 13 to go to work.

Ease up and remember just because you are lost does not mean your compass is broken.

[mirage1988]

It has been statistically proven that accidents don't happen because of ONE contributing factor, they didn't die from cold water, they didn't die from a stuck anchor, they didn't die from high seas, they didn't sign their death warrants when they left the dock, they died from a combination of those factors! The plane crash in Buffalo happened because the pilots had the plane on auto-pilot and they had bad icing, the plane may have been improperly loaded, that hasn't came out yet. Car accidents are almost always a combination of factors- excessive speed, driver distracted, alcohol, sun glare, driving too fast for conditions, I could go on but you get my drift?

Sure is a good thing that idiots have such a strong lunged spokesman as you cabin! You didn't have much to say when God's hand set a plane down on the hudson without losing a life, or when a plane crashed into a house in buffalo, killing 51! Why are you beating this topic into the ground?

The pilots skill and experience in the case of the Hudson River emergency landing proved to be the deciding factor that saved those people’s lives. I believe I wrote about this event in a prior thread on that specific topic here. You can do search if interested to find it.

In the case of the Buffalo accident, the complete report is not out yet but when it’s available I plan to read it. I can share more details with you after that. But what we do know, which has been confirmed by the TSA investigators, is that the plane still had the auto pilot engaged when it hit the ground. The plane did not come in on a forward decline into the ground. Instead it hit the ground flat on the belly of the aircraft which tells us it had little or no forward momentum.

If you read the training manual for that aircraft and others, it tells the pilots to disengage the auto pilot under icing conditions. Failing to disengage it, prevents the pilot from feeling the avionic impacts of the ice buildup because the auto pilot keeps making the required on-course compensations without the pilots knowledge. When the ice buildup gets to the point where the avionic surfaces can longer compensate, the plane simply goes out of control. This appears to be the case in the Buffalo accident. What’s even more disturbing is that the pilot never disengaged the auto even after the plans behavior was violently out of control. It’s likely the pilot and co-pilot simply froze from fear and did not react due to lack of experience or training at that point. Given the pilots lack of disengaging the auto pilot earlier on in the approach and after the out of control situation, this will likely be concluded as pilot error.
We’ll see.

Does this help you Mirage?

Is there an echo in here?

[mirage1988]

So it was the pilots skill that saved everyone on the hudson? No divine intervention? Do you remember United flight 232 that crashed in sioux city, iowa? That plane lost all hydraulics when the tail engine grenaded. In a dc-10, the control surfaces and the landing gear are all ran by hydraulics. The only control the pilot had of the plane was the throttles. He steered that plane with throttles only to the sioux city airport, his only mistake was putting the gear down. When he did the plane became uncontrollable, and crashed. After that crash all of the airlines put the info from the black boxes into their simulators, NOT ONE of their pilots were able to duplicate his feat! Pilot skill huh?

[Cabin4]

So it was the pilots skill that saved everyone on the hudson? No divine intervention? Do you remember United flight 232 that crashed in sioux city, iowa? That plane lost all hydraulics when the tail engine grenaded. In a dc-10, the control surfaces and the landing gear are all ran by hydraulics. The only control the pilot had of the plane was the throttles. He steered that plane with throttles only to the sioux city airport, his only mistake was putting the gear down. When he did the plane became uncontrollable, and crashed. After that crash all of the airlines put the info from the black boxes into their simulators, NOT ONE of their pilots were able to duplicate his feat! Pilot skill huh?

Yes Mirage, pilot skill and experience. God gave that pilot a brain and God expects him and all of us to use it. He did use it, his entire aviation career. By the grace of God and a man taking his responsibility deep into his very being, gave him the skill to compete with that situation. God did play a role but I don't think it was a "hand delivery" as your suggesting. That would suggest that the pilots skill, deliberateness and experience had nothing to do with the successful water landing.

Your going in all sorts of various directions again on this thread Mirage. I have seen this with you in other threads. You make a post then follow up with another post and in some cases minutes apart before anyone has even responded. Some of your posts are so far off topic it's hard for me to comprehend how you got to it. There’s an image in my mind growing that you may not be a deliberate man. You can correct me if I’m mistaken on this point.

[DalesCarpentry]

So it was the pilots skill that saved everyone on the hudson? No divine intervention? Do you remember United flight 232 that crashed in sioux city, iowa? That plane lost all hydraulics when the tail engine grenaded. In a dc-10, the control surfaces and the landing gear are all ran by hydraulics. The only control the pilot had of the plane was the throttles. He steered that plane with throttles only to the sioux city airport, his only mistake was putting the gear down. When he did the plane became uncontrollable, and crashed. After that crash all of the airlines put the info from the black boxes into their simulators, NOT ONE of their pilots were able to duplicate his feat! Pilot skill huh?

Yes Mirage, pilot skill and experience. God gave that pilot a brain and God expects him and all of us to use it. He did use it, his entire aviation career. By the grace of God and a man taking his responsibility deep into his very being, gave him the skill to compete with that situation. God did play a role but I don't think it was a "hand delivery" as your suggesting. That would suggest that the pilots skill, deliberateness and experience had nothing to do with the successful water landing.

Your going in all sorts of various directions again on this thread Mirage. I have seen this with you in other threads. You make a post then follow up with another post and in some cases minutes apart before anyone has even responded. Some of your posts are so far off topic it's hard for me to comprehend how you got to it. There’s an image in my mind growing that you may not be a deliberate man. You can correct me if I’m mistaken on this point.

Would you please elaborate on what a deliberate man is? Does that mean a man that does not do things on purpose? I just don't get it. Dale

[Cabin4]

So it was the pilots skill that saved everyone on the hudson? No divine intervention? Do you remember United flight 232 that crashed in sioux city, iowa? That plane lost all hydraulics when the tail engine grenaded. In a dc-10, the control surfaces and the landing gear are all ran by hydraulics. The only control the pilot had of the plane was the throttles. He steered that plane with throttles only to the sioux city airport, his only mistake was putting the gear down. When he did the plane became uncontrollable, and crashed. After that crash all of the airlines put the info from the black boxes into their simulators, NOT ONE of their pilots were able to duplicate his feat! Pilot skill huh?

Yes Mirage, pilot skill and experience. God gave that pilot a brain and God expects him and all of us to use it. He did use it, his entire aviation career. By the grace of God and a man taking his responsibility deep into his very being, gave him the skill to compete with that situation. God did play a role but I don't think it was a "hand delivery" as your suggesting. That would suggest that the pilots skill, deliberateness and experience had nothing to do with the successful water landing.

Your going in all sorts of various directions again on this thread Mirage. I have seen this with you in other threads. You make a post then follow up with another post and in some cases minutes apart before anyone has even responded. Some of your posts are so far off topic it's hard for me to comprehend how you got to it. There’s an image in my mind growing that you may not be a deliberate man. You can correct me if I’m mistaken on this point.

Would you please elaborate on what a deliberate man is? Does that mean a man that does not do things on purpose? I just don't get it. Dale

The pilot was deliberate, decisive, instinctive and skilled in his actions.

Deliberate: Carefully weighed or considered; studied and intentional. Steady in movement, unhurried but he took the correct and required steps at the required moments.

If someone pulls a knife or gun on you, would you hesitate or would you instantly and instinctively take steps to repel the attack....

[mirage1988]

I don't know what a deliberate man is either, maybe the allknowing one will explain it to me?
Cabin, what i was getting at was that accidents happen, not by planning, that is why they are called accidents, not on-purposes.
 You don't know what happened on that boat, on the titanic, not on flight 232.
Why do you feel compelled to keep talking trash about 3 dead guys that died on a boat?
 More fisherman die off the coast of alaska every year than the rest of the continental US. Why don't you get on a soapbox and start yelling about that?

[Cabin4]

I don't know what a deliberate man is either, maybe the allknowing one will explain it to me?
Cabin, what i was getting at was that accidents happen, not by planning, that is why they are called accidents, not on-purposes.
 You don't know what happened on that boat, on the titanic, not on flight 232.
Why do you feel compelled to keep talking trash about 3 dead guys that died on a boat?
 More fisherman die off the coast of alaska every year than the rest of the continental US. Why don't you get on a soapbox and start yelling about that?

Mirage,

If you don't know what deliberate means and you don't want to accept the definition I provided, you can look it up for yourself.

For you to compare real fisherman off the Alaskan coast to these 4 in Florida is ridiculous. But since you have, are you saying that Professional Alaskan Fishermen are as unskilled, unprepared and as irrisponsable as the 4 recreational fishermen in Florida? If you are, I’m back to my point about you not being deliberate.

[mirage1988]

Good night Cabin,
I don't know why i'm even responding to this. You are right- everyone else is an idiot, you are the king! Just make sure you have your life jacket on and your transponder in your pocket when cali falls into the ocean. Hopefully your horse can swim!

[Cabin4]

Good night Cabin,
I don't know why i'm even responding to this. You are right- everyone else is an idiot, you are the king! Just make sure you have your life jacket on and your transponder in your pocket when cali falls into the ocean. Hopefully your horse can swim!

Okay Mirage, I think it is a good time for you to call it a night. You’re not staying focused and really, little of what your writing makes any sense. Maybe some sleep will help.

But just to set the record straight,  I don’t think everyone is an idiot. Just those that would defend stupidity and recklessness to the end and those that draw severely ineffective situational parallels. I’m certainly not a king, don't want to be a king nor claim to be one on anything.

[Skunk]

Someone please lock this thread.

[mirage1988]

Someone please lock this thread.

[Cabin4]

Someone please lock this thread.

Why lock it now...Mirage wants to pick it up in the morning when his thoughts are fresh and sharp.
  Then again, maybe it should be locked.

[DalesCarpentry]

Someone please lock this thread.

Why lock it now...Mirage wants to pick it up in the morning when his thoughts are fresh and sharp.
  Then again, maybe it should be locked.

I agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!! Please lock it. Enough has been said here. Dale

[myronman3]

 wait until life sneaks up and bites you in the butt, cabin.
  i knew another guy just like you that was arrogant as the day was long.  then one day, his horse threw him in the air and his back was broke, he was in a wheelchair the rest of his life. 
   you think you have a handle on it.  the thing about life is, no matter who you are, or how smart you think you are, it can still bite you in the tail out of no where. 
   have fun. you are nothing more than a simple-minded monday morning quarterback.

[Skunk]

wait until life sneaks up and bites you in the butt, cabin.
  i knew another guy just like you that was arrogant as the day was long.  then one day, his horse threw him in the air and his back was broke, he was in a wheelchair the rest of his life. 
   you think you have a handle on it.  the thing about life is, no matter who you are, or how smart you think you are, it can still bite you in the tail out of no where. 
   have fun. you are nothing more than a simple-minded monday morning quarterback.

Hey, Big +1 on that Myronman.

And speaking of horses, I'm beginning to think that Cabin was possible not as "deliberate of a man" as he should have been while riding the horse pictured in his avatar. I'm wondering if maybe he fell off that horse a few times and possibly whacked his head on a rock or two. I'm just saying Cabin...

[Cabin4]

wait until life sneaks up and bites you in the butt, cabin.
  i knew another guy just like you that was arrogant as the day was long.  then one day, his horse threw him in the air and his back was broke, he was in a wheelchair the rest of his life. 
   you think you have a handle on it.  the thing about life is, no matter who you are, or how smart you think you are, it can still bite you in the tail out of no where. 
   have fun. you are nothing more than a simple-minded monday morning quarterback.

Myronman,

I went back over the threads on this one and tried to find something that you posted worth reading again. Honestly, I could not find a damn thing worth reading or remembering. Nothing that would acknowledge what these guys did wrong and the obvious mistakes they made. Nothing worth taking away to put in the back pocket. No one will understand anything from your posts and 3 people are dead that did not have to die. Nothing.

I have no regrets about anything I wrote here. Some of it, yes is a bit SA. But those are responses to specific people who just seem to have the need to drop in their worthless side tracking tactics because they have nothing of substance to add.

There's not much I like about people that need to sugar coat the truth and defend stupidity and irresponsibility even when premature or avoidable death is involved. Or maybe it's just because they are completely incapable of recognizing what really happened or took the time to research. Those people likely will someday will be victim to the stupidity they seem to be so willing to constantly defend. Not sure which of the prior two buckets you fall into. But one thing’s for sure, you’re staying true to your avatar and at least that’s something for you to be proud of here.

[45-70.gov]

Someone please lock this thread.

Why lock it now...Mirage wants to pick it up in the morning when his thoughts are fresh and sharp.
  Then again, maybe it should be locked.

I agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!! Please lock it. Enough has been said here. Dale

what  is the purpose  of  locking  it???

know  one  is here  that doesn't choose to be


=====================================
and  those posted  below had  the freedon and chose  to return....lol

[myronman3]

whatever.   you just have fun riding that horse.    mark my words, sooner or later life will teach you a lesson.   happy trails...........

[Cabin4]

whatever.   you just have fun riding that horse.    mark my words, sooner or later life will teach you a lesson.   happy trails...........

Words of wisdom straight off a bar stool from the Blue Gill Bar.

Thanks for the advise Myronman.

[myronman3]

you wont find me in the 'gill.  i've been  in there less than ten times over ten years. 

[SHOOTALL]

If OSHA was in charge of thr bull riding  they would make it so you could not fall off !
Then what would be the point ?
So is life ! If there was no danger what would be the point ?

[Cabin4]

neglience even stupidity, that the gene pool needed more cleansing,

This is the nature of the world we live in.


..TM7
.

How true.

[Cabin4]

TM7,

I'm not misrepresenting anything you wrote. I'm simply quoting those areas I agree with.

But let's be real. Comparing what happened in Florida on that boat to riding a horse is rediculous.

C4