Author Topic: ? for CCW holders... Do you carry at Church? (Read 2431 times)

Brett · « **on:** March 08, 2009, 07:21:47 AM »

(CNN) -- The pastor of a Maryville, Illinois, church was shot to death during a service Sunday in front of horrified parishioners who then tackled the gunman, state police said.
The Web site for First Baptist Church of Maryville includes a photo of Pastor Fred Winters.

The Web site for First Baptist Church of Maryville includes a photo of Pastor Fred Winters.
Click to view previous image
1 of 2
Click to view next image

Fred Winters, the pastor of the First Baptist Church of Maryville, was shot and killed during the 8 a.m. service, and the attacker and two parishioners suffered knife wounds in the attack, Illinois state police spokesman Ralph Timmins told CNN affiliate KSDK.

The gunman walked in during the service and walked up to the pulpit, opening fire when he was met by Winters, Timmins said. A Maryville police dispatcher told CNN the pastor was shot three times.

The suspect then pulled out a knife and wounded himself, Timmins said. Two worshippers who were attempting to detain him were also injured by the knife.

St. Louis University Hospital spokeswoman Laura Keller told CNN three males, including the suspect, were brought to the hospital.

One was dead on arrival, she said, but the hospital was not releasing names and ages. The second was in an operating room and the third was the suspect, she said. The suspect's condition was not immediately available.

Carry all the time every where possible.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #1 on:** March 08, 2009, 09:34:08 AM »

Really looks like somebody should !

williamlayton · « **Reply #2 on:** March 08, 2009, 11:22:01 PM »

You cannot prevent someone intent on killing you from doing so.
You may get lucky but most of the time "not."
Blessings

bilmac · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2009, 12:53:06 AM »

It is about protecting others in my mind. Don't make that much difference to me, I know where I'm going, but I would sure hate to see our kids hurt.

This is a hard subject for me, I thought about it long and hard after the last time someone shot up a Church. If I start packing a gun to Church what are we teaching those kids? Even if I concealed it you couldn't keep it secret for long, we are too close where I go to Church.

I'm wondering if a combination lock box fastened down in a room adjoining the sanctuary may be a better answer. Guys who sit near that door could dive in there, grab a gun and circle around behind an attacker pretty fast if the lock wasn't too slow.

About one or two more of these shootings and I'm going to have to bring up the subject with the leadership.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2009, 05:15:11 AM »

Quote

If I start packing a gun to Church what are we teaching those kids?

This is a valid concern. That being said, there are several of us that have CC permits and I am not sure who does carry in the sanctuary and who does not. I have not before but I'm sure that someone does and to tell you the truth its ok by me! We live in a rural area and I really dont think the kids would feel any different about it than they do at a high school event where they see LE openly carry! Its for their protection and they understand that. They might not understand if someone entered the sanctuary and shot it up if no one was prepared to protect them.

This is all some serious food for thought! this world is not getting safer to live in, "We" need to protect ourselves the best way we can!

kitchawan kid · « **Reply #5 on:** March 09, 2009, 05:30:00 AM »

I fail to see why the kids should be a concern,are they upset when they are near a police officer? I would think the protection of human life is the most important part of religion.

bilmac · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2009, 07:31:27 AM »

Yea, I guess I should just start carrying openly around town. I've thought about it, but after 20 years carrying on the job I'm not anxious to start again. Here in rural Wyo, people feel safe and seeing guns on the street just makes us uncomfortable, not worried about the guy who's packing, it's the realization that the world is not a warm fuzzy place anymore.

Maybe if I started a few other guys would too, I know we all feel pretty much the same.

daddyof4 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 09, 2009, 07:43:54 AM »

If you remember about ten years ago the man that went in and shot up a church in Houston during a passion play? One of those killed was a youth director who was a friend of me and my brother in laws. More recently a man walked into a unitarian church in my town of Knoxville and killed several. Of a greater concern is that that man had worked with me for a brief time as a temperary employee. I have been asked by a pastor to carry a sidearm. The church that I attend now meets in a school, so to do so there would make me a felon. God did lead David to get five smooth stones......

kitchawan kid · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2009, 07:47:12 AM »

Name three "gun free zones" that are always in the news because of mass shootings?

bilmac · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:17:18 AM »

It could be that those who would do such things are crazy but not stupid.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:30:09 AM »

What are we teaching our kids ?
We are teaching them to protect themselves . We are teaching them to be responsible for themselves . To be honest i would think we would be teaching them the right way to live.
What would others teach them ? to lie down and be slaughtered ? I seem to remember pictures of the settlers in this country toting guns to church in pictures in our history books ( wonder if they still have those pics ).

S & W 642 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:43:31 AM »

I carry wherever I go and that means church I know of about 5 or 6 of us that have our CCW permits and we carry. We carry to protect ourselves and our families. The pastor know's I carry and a few others. He respects that right. To be honest I think He appreciates the fact that someone has a firearm in the congregation. Also my kids know I carry and they know not to say a word. About what are we teaching the kids in the church remember we our carrying concealed so know one know's that we are carrying.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #12 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:48:13 AM »

The law in Va. says we can carry in a church if we have a good reason . Seems thats covered .

Van/TX · « **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2009, 12:48:44 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on March 09, 2009, 08:48:13 AM

The law in Va. says we can carry in a church if we have a good reason . Seems thats covered .

Huh

...Van

45-70.gov · « **Reply #14 on:** March 09, 2009, 02:00:21 PM »

i once knew a catholic preist that routinely carried a 45 auto [fulsized]
concealed before it was legal here

it is important what the kids think to me also
and as thomas jefferson once said
''it is the right and DUTY of free men to at all times be armed''
so yes set a good example for your children not a politically correct example

if your gun is not in your pocket when you are in church
where is it?? where it can get stolen from your car and taken into the church by a creep

Preacherman · « **Reply #15 on:** March 09, 2009, 04:26:37 PM »

Yes
Peracherman

ShootnStr8 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 09, 2009, 04:30:00 PM »

It is illegal here in SC without permission from the church leadership. The exception is law enforcement officers which gratefully we have a number attending in our services. Sadly, hiring security for church services is on the rise.

Blessings!

ShootnStr8

bluecow · « **Reply #17 on:** March 10, 2009, 03:00:52 AM »

yes. no greater love... ( book of john ?)

ihuntbucks · « **Reply #18 on:** March 10, 2009, 10:14:22 PM »

YES......Rick

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2009, 06:44:03 AM »

van/tx , that's the law , who decides ? since there has been trouble in churches one can assume its ok now ?
just one more example of a D A Law !

Mikey · « **Reply #20 on:** March 12, 2009, 01:32:24 AM »

Pardon me, but it used to be that every man brought his rifle to church and after the sermon they had a turkey shoot or the like out back.

And will someone please tell me what the hay is the difference between early American settlers going armed to church for protection against homicidal native Americans or brigands, and todays city folk hoping they don't get caught in a druggie drive-by while on the way to church. So when did we stop bringing our firearms to church with us, when it wasn't so dangerous any more?

William - if I ever agreed with your statement that it is not possible to defend yourself against someone intent on killing you then I would simply disappear in a puff of historical smoke and you would be able to read part of my history on my dang tombstone. And if you really believe what you just said then why on earth do you even bother owning defensive weapons - to protect yourself from someone not intent on killing you?

??

Pardon me but one very good, solid, easily justifiable reason to carry a gun is to prevent someone from killing you, whether you are the target or just a incidental 'extra'.

What kind of example are we setting for the kids - the right one I hope and I hope we are teaching them that no place is safe and they should be prepared to defend themselves if necessary. We need to teach them that you are not safe anywhere from maniacs, whether it is God's House, the street, school or city hall; no place is safe unless you can defend yourself. There is no place safe from maniacs and that is why you carry a gun, or should, and the kids need to understand this. Sorry, but that is the plain truth. Gun free zones are simply 'moving target' zones, they are not safe zones. And where the hay did kids start getting the impression they should be scared of a cop? From the same people who think they shouldn't carry guns to church???

And once again the old question arises - would you rather be judged by 12 or see yourself or your wife or one or more of your children carried by six? C'mon people, get with it. There can be no second guessing on the need for safety. And that's jmtcw.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #21 on:** March 12, 2009, 01:53:43 AM »

want to see how someone makes a profit off this ?
check out www.frontsight.com/21asp
gee what a deal . why not donate one to each church himself ?

kitchawan kid · « **Reply #22 on:** March 12, 2009, 02:37:01 AM »

Mikey said it better than anyone,I think you will find our schools teach that self defence is wrong,that is what I have found after 25 yrs. in the system.

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2009, 02:53:45 AM »

You should carry to the point that you are so comfortable with it, you have to walk back to your truck when you go to the post office/bank/or school*, because you forgot you had it with you.

If your kid hasn't asked you by age 8 why you carry a gun, than its time you had that talk with them. Put it right before the birds and the bees. The sooner they are on board with it, the sooner you are ahead of the curve.

What are we teaching the kids? I hope its not hypocrisy.

*just obeying them federal and state laws.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #24 on:** March 12, 2009, 12:02:41 PM »

Sometimes i think its this civilization thing that is the problem!

People(liberals) think that once they become "civilized" then they dont need to carry weapons(to defend themselves) and dont need to get their hands dirty making their own food, or catching and killing it! That they can depend on the government to protect them and Mickey D's to butcher the beef.

Well tell that to the Romans, they were civilized, The barbarians, burned and sacked their city.

The police only clean up messes they cant protect you from someone, You have to do that!

There are "barbarians" around every corner, The government makes them!(I'll go into that another time)

So if you want to be protected Use your head and wits and carry a weapon, unless your body is one and you are bullet proof!

Civilized to me means, hot water for a bath in the evening after I work in the garden, and finish feeding the animals ot butchering one. OH......i almost forgot, power for my puter so i can come here and rant!

bilmac · « **Reply #25 on:** March 12, 2009, 06:40:54 PM »

Mikey I appreciate your passion, but I think William is right. A gun on your hip does not make you a superman. If someone shoots you in the back the gun will do you no good. When I was in Viet Nam, we set up an ambush on a trail. Sure enough along comes a bunch of guys carrying stuff but unarmed, only one NVA type had a pistol. The cargo haulers got wind of the ambush, dropped their stuff and ran like crazy. As far as I know they are still alive today. The one guy that had a pistol started to draw it before he was dead.

I'm not saying don't carry because it won't do you any good, I don't think William was either. Just remember my story about the guy who died on the trail when you have your gun on.

Mikey · « **Reply #26 on:** March 13, 2009, 02:21:16 AM »

bilmac: I'm not saying a gun on your hip makes you a Superman. Not at all. But if you are carrying a gun and NOT watching your back, especially if you are in a situation where you might become victimized, a gun sure isn't going to do you any good. In that case williamlayton is correct. But I will tell you this - if I am in church and carrying a gun I am sure as all get out not going to be so distracted by what is going on in front of me that I don't watch my back, but that's just me.

And as far as trail ambushes are concerned - been there and done that. I have planned and carried out many of them. Most in SE Asia but a number elsewhere. The VC, as you know, were not opposed to using enslaved labor and innocent villagers to trigger ambushes if they thought you might be in the area, and when you initiated the ambush the VC, or NVA, who had planned that operation were usually within about 100m of the ambush and would come on the run to fry your bacon - as you also know.

bilmac · « **Reply #27 on:** March 13, 2009, 03:23:48 AM »

I think in our case the guys that escaped were probably just poor farmers that the NVA had conscripted. We were in a free fire zone and theoretically anyone not in American uniform was the enemy.

My mistake about your passion my man, I got the idea that maybe you were a fuzz faced kid. Boys like that need a steadying hand.

Only you know the situation you are facing and can make the determination of how you are going to react if evil shows up on your doorstep. In my case I have never felt a sense of community as I have here and now. There is one topic of conversation that unites everybody here, we hate the Federal Government. It is obvious to anyone with a little common sense that they are working as fast as they can to destroy a very fine lifestyle, and folks around here are gifted with common sense.

I'm kind of new here and so I haven't earned the right to be a leader, so I am looking to the good men in the community for my cues, but when the first guys start wearing their guns, that's when I strap on my own.

I am trying to follow the directions given in the Bible which pretty clearly says to be loyal to the government. What I see though is that the Federal Government has over the years illegally usurped the power of the States, and so I will be loyal to my state government if they step up to the plate. If they don't I will be loyal to my county government.

mattmillerrx · « **Reply #28 on:** March 13, 2009, 02:55:20 PM »

Yes! We are thinking of putting a security team together consisting of ccw holders. This way they could be placed in different points in the sanctuary to minimize the results if a church shooting was to happen at our church.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #29 on:** March 13, 2009, 03:06:08 PM »

Quote from: mattmillerrx on March 13, 2009, 02:55:20 PM

Yes! We are thinking of putting a security team together consisting of ccw holders. This way they could be placed in different points in the sanctuary to minimize the results if a church shooting was to happen at our church.

Sounds prudent to me!