Author Topic: Someone wanted mortar drawings?  (Read 5289 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« on: March 11, 2009, 06:57:50 AM »
This is one of a set of three volumes at the National Archives, reference info in the last two links.  I guess the other volumes were on guns and howitzers.  Each sheet was in a plastic protector, and measured about 3x4 feet, so I didn't have enough time to take them out for photography, thus the glare.



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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2009, 08:38:28 AM »
Mr. Morris,

 These drawings are great, I can now well understand why you would spend all that time going over document after document; coming up with gold like this has to make it worth the effort. Are you going to post the drawings of guns and howitzers, because I'd love to see them. Thanks
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2009, 08:42:16 AM »
Wow Thank you cannonmn! ;D
gary
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2009, 09:45:46 AM »
there it was a lot of beautiful mortars , I love most of them
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2009, 10:43:32 AM »
Quote
Are you going to post the drawings of guns and howitzers, because I'd love to see them.

I certainly will if I can get them photographed, I ran out of time after the mortars, but intend to go back, maybe even tonight since they are open late Wed-Fri.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 07:23:56 PM »
Cannonmn,

 I really enjoyed looking at the photos you took of the pages of this French "Collection of Ordnance Pieces" (which I think is part of the title, at least according to Babel Fish). It's hard to make out the words at the top of some of the pages, but I can see that one says Mortiers Venitiens which translates to Venetian Mortars; are some of the second words after Mortiers on other pages also the names of countries, and the drawings examples of the named countries' mortar designs?
There is an anomaly on one of the pages that shows a thick walled cannon, ( I'd say howitzer, but it doesn't appear to have a reduced powder chamber) but it looks like the word Mortier at the top of the page.



Is there any date given for the printing of this Atlas of Artillery?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2009, 07:12:24 AM »
date?


The complete Atlas is 130 plates, published in elephant folio as the one I photographed, in 1853.  Looks like the text vol. was dated 1856.

There's a citation I found for it in a 1903 NYPL magazine:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5-fIPzPJdPIC&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=atlas+du+recueil+des+bouches+a+feu&source=bl&ots=2Cw46NDLZm&sig=4Fi2ze5aAXyiSt4kD0E3NaNYiq4&hl=en&ei=zZK6SfPsE-Cbtwf-x63iDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result

Offline Double D

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 07:17:45 AM »
Here's one:

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2009, 08:21:13 AM »

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 10:27:04 AM »
Here's one:


You're a regular comic riot, you know that! I sure hope someone is going to be documenting the 'Montana Shoot' on film because I can't wait to see the meeting of you and RocklockI. Maybe just as a safety precaution Cat should be kept on the sidelines equipped with a large net, and if anyone loses their sense of decorum, he can restrain the culprit/s until they regain their composure.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2009, 10:30:37 AM »
It does look a bit like a big flower pot or maybe a burial urn doesn't it.

Offline MikeR C

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2009, 10:47:50 AM »
I for one was looking for drawings of the British Royal mortar barrel. If you come up with a large picture I would definitely be interested. I have most of the gross dimentions, what I am looking for is the moulding details.

Thx
Mike

Offline Double D

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2009, 11:18:16 AM »
Mike, did you look at the picture of the British royal mortar on Cannon on lines website http://www.cannonsonline.com/product_pgs/barrels/features/britishRoyal_mortar.htm

Here is another. http://www.travelpod.com/travel-photo/laorfamily/daytrips/1185622260/bronze-8-inch-xroyal-mortarx.jpg/tpod.html

You should be able to scale from these pictures.

By the way, Royal Mortar makes a good name for a Public House on the UK.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2009, 01:15:21 PM »
It does look a bit like a big flower pot or maybe a burial urn doesn't it.

As long as it's a pre-1899 flower pot mortar it's OK!   ;D
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2009, 03:57:57 PM »
Here's one:


You're a regular comic riot, you know that! I sure hope someone is going to be documenting the 'Montana Shoot' on film because I can't wait to see the meeting of you and RocklockI. Maybe just as a safety precaution Cat should be kept on the sidelines equipped with a large net, and if anyone loses their sense of decorum, he can restrain the culprit/s until they regain their composure.


Sorry ,I must be missing something ....I have no intentions of losing my composure . But if you clue me in maybe I'll think about it . :D
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2009, 06:25:21 PM »
When you are taking pictures of line drawings, it is best to save them as .gif files if possible.  The .jpg format smears the lines and does not enlarge well.
GG
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2009, 06:59:40 PM »
You're a regular comic riot, you know that! I sure hope someone is going to be documenting the 'Montana Shoot' on film because I can't wait to see the meeting of you and RocklockI. Maybe just as a safety precaution Cat should be kept on the sidelines equipped with a large net, and if anyone loses their sense of decorum, he can restrain the culprit/s until they regain their composure.
Sorry ,I must be missing something ....I have no intentions of losing my composure . But if you clue me in maybe I'll think about it . :D



I think I'm the one that needs a clue.:D How did the guy with the wild sense of humour below, turn into this serious guy that missed my joke (it would seem like that is not a hard thing to do) above? ;)



I believe a good little red wagon would do the job! :D

El Caz,

 This WWI photo shows that life is sometimes stranger than fiction. The 37mm ordnance isn't appropriate for the forum, but the pic proves that dogs actually were used as draft animals to haul ordnance.



LOL  ;D  look at the "armor" plating on the carriage .......  HOKIE MOKIE  ".....(@%!+(%*&^= !!!!!)...." how many gunners /sighters /ammo humpers , fit behind that tee tiny little plating !!!! :D

The manual says 8 !!!! ... but the angle has to be just right . And some dignity "could be" sacrificed .  BUT what happens behind the teeny , tiny lil ,...itsy ,bittsy , "safe place" ,  ;) 8) , stays behind the little teeny  tiny ..  ... ....

RocklockI, the old WWII flicks: Two or more Marines get together, (you and DD) their rauckus natures are hard enough to keep under control alone (I know DD seems self-contained, but I think there's a fire burning beneath that cool exterior), ;) but combined together they're incorrigible, they end up causing mayhem in about three different bars in succession, then the MP's catch up with them, (Cat/Tim is metaphorically the MP's, and he's got a net instead of a billy club) they pound on the unruly Gyrenes' heads for awhile then throw them in the brig until they sober up. Do you get it, please tell me you get the joke now.:D
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2009, 05:43:23 AM »
 ;D
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2009, 08:14:54 AM »
It does look a bit like a big flower pot or maybe a burial urn doesn't it.
As long as it's a pre-1899 flower pot mortar it's OK!   ;D
;D

Ok Gary, first of all, neither you nor Douglas reprimanded me for not capitalizing Marine, and Gyrene, (I just noticed this when checking out the post, and edited it) this may be a serious offense, for all I know you could both be stripped of your former Jarhead status for missing this, secondly: Never give a clown like me any encouragement, (you should have posted one of these  ??? not a  ;D) because I'll just keep going on and on and...........




Some of these 18th Century mortars do look like huge glorified flower vases, don't they?

Gary, you have a post where you were saying you had an interest in this style of antique European mortar; well if you ever get the chance to get one, and you think your wife might not be too thrilled about you spending all that money on your hobby, maybe this ploy would work: You give the mortar to her as a gift, and tell her it's a large bronze Ming Dynasty flower vase, and the bed is the stand made to display it in the parlor. When you feel like firing it you tell her you have to take it to a conservator to have the bronze treated to preserve it (you'd have to clean out the BP residue thoroughly before you brought it back into the house). If she ever asked what the little hole was for on the side near the bottom of the vase, all you'd have to reply is that it was there to drain the water from the vase so the Chinese Emperor's servants could perform this task without having to herniate themselves trying to lift the monster (to make this look more realistic you could make a little cork to insert in the vent).


RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dan610324

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2009, 09:43:07 AM »
Boom J

do you have that photo in full size ??
if so , please email it to me

dan610324@hotmail.com

I really want to take an closer look at that bed
do you know anything about it ??
Dan Pettersson
a swedish cannon maniac
interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2009, 01:22:01 PM »
Sorry, thats it on the size of the pic, I think I boosted that photo from a National Park Service site.

That's an 18th century Spanish mortar from Castillo De San Marcos National Monument in St. Augustine, Florida, and the only thing I know about the bed is what I can see; it's a Spanish 1700's style siege mortar bed with bronze cheeks separated by wooden balks.

I'm now boosting these pics from a photo/travel site.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2517091020026621166qTsMsX
Same mortar, rear view.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2920605010026621166YdeMZe
A similar looking smaller bed, from the same location, but this one missing the wood balks.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2666242920026621166Tcrbfh
Side view.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2467575840026621166patLGi
http://community.webshots.com/photo/fullsize/2154688500026621166ALgMtw
Two views of a twin of the first mortar, mounted on a wood bed.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2009, 02:50:10 PM »
I'm very familiar with that style Spanish mortar bed, since it is the same exact style as is on my 10" mortar.  The sideplates are two separate castings, with lots of hardwood in between, and bolts to pull the sides together around the wood.  I have pix of mine when it was apart, somewhere.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2009, 04:45:05 PM »
Quote
When you are taking pictures of line drawings, it is best to save them as .gif files if possible.  The .jpg format smears the lines and does not enlarge well.

Tx.  I guess I only use the .jpg since that's what websites seem to require for posting.

A friend of mine is a printer who does mostly blueprints, digitally.  He says the industry uses .tiff only.  They must know something too.  I do know that .tiff is supposed to be the gold standard for long-term storage, where other formats might die out, I'm told .tiff will be around forever since the world has decided that's the way to go.

Comment?

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2009, 05:02:22 PM »
.tiff is a much higher resolution format than .gif but the files are much larger.  Certainly they would be better for long term use but one has to balance bandwidth with resolution.  If the drawing is well aligned with the imager, the lines in a .gif will be only one or two pixels wide and either black or white, no graying as seen with .jpg's of line drawings.  But it also depends on what your camera produces.  If it only gives you jpg's, then one has to deal with jpg's.
GG
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2009, 07:52:53 PM »
I'm very familiar with that style Spanish mortar bed, since it is the same exact style as is on my 10" mortar.  The sideplates are two separate castings, with lots of hardwood in between, and bolts to pull the sides together around the wood.  I have pix of mine when it was apart, somewhere.

http://www.n-ssa.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=31078#31078

John, you had posted the above link on a past thread, where you estimated the combined weight of your mortar and bed with the new walnut inserts at about 3,000 lbs. What would you guestimate the weight of the large ornate mortar and bed at Castillo de San Marcos to be (it looks huge)? I'm posting another photo of the details of this striking mortar.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2009, 09:50:04 PM »
     Boom J and Cannonmn,   To assist you gentlemen in your estimation of this large Spanish mortar's weight Mike and I can supply two facts which hopefully will assist you.  First the bore size on this brute is 15 Inches and second, Mike is 6' 2" tall.  Hope that helps!  There are two of these with different types of mortar bed at the Castillo.  Our photo and the first in the series of webshots links shows the first type and the fifth webshots link shows the other.  Surprisingly there are also two of these at Fort Ticonderoga, New York.  These two are sitting next to a huge cast iron French mortar from the 1760s that weighs, conservatively, 8,000 Lbs.(I'm looking for that pic.)

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

At the Castillo in 2006, Mike couldn't resist hamming it up a bit.  Studying and measuring cannon is such serious business, you just have to cut loose once in a while. 

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2009, 12:31:54 AM »
Interesting discussion!  I'm keeping a tight grip on any comparisons between shall we say other measurements in the Castillo man vs. mortar picture, because my own "love handles" probably put the ample ones on that mortar to shame.

I'll go back and go over my own Castillo photos to see if I have some of the marked trunnions of those mega-mortars.  I'll look at the Ft. T. shots also.  As many of you know, Spanish bronze cannons, at least those of four-pounder and up, were quite consistent about what was marked where on the piece during the 18th and 19th C.  With respect to the trunnions, the origin of the metal (copper in particular) was detailed on one trunnion, and the weight on the other.  If the copper origin was not listed as a specific mine or geographic location such as "Riotinto" for that mine, it may say "Bronces Viejos" which means bronze recycled from old cannons.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2009, 01:28:53 AM »
 Hmmm...

 The Rio Tinto (Red river) area in Spain is considered to be the birthplace of the Bronze Age.

 The world's largest bauxite mining concern bears that name today.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2009, 01:37:19 AM »
Here are my pics of one of the unusually-shaped mortars at Castillo.  The weight mark on the trunnion is "40C 41 Ls..." which may mean 4041 Spanish pounds.  There are a dizzying array of various weight symbols and formats of marking I've found for Spanish cannon weight marks, and maybe when I grow up I'll understand most of them.
















Offline Max Caliber

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Re: Someone wanted mortar drawings?
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2009, 01:49:29 AM »
Here are even more pictures I took recently.






Max