NEF Rifling dimensions

[kody]

  Question #1.  Are M/L  grooves cut deeper than barrels for clad bullets?  #2. Are any of the NEF, .32-.45 cal. fast-twist rifle barrels manufactured with land/groove ratios that would work with lead bullets or saboted bullets. #3. Would an older .58 cal. Huntsman ,equipped with the real old slip-in breechplug, be capable of  boring/ tapping for the NEF/ Metrics improved breech plug?  #4. Ditto for the old Huntsman shotguns?   Ken

[PHATINJUN]

Ken where are you finding this info for the Metrics/NEF plugs? Kurt

[kody]

   Hello Kurt; I'm full of ideas but short of knowledge. I got a .50 cal Huntsman with a 7/8 " breechplug. I watched everything you guys have been bouncing around .I followed your leads in getting a Hubbards 7/8" plug. I learned from all of the comments that it too had less than perfect results. I learned of Cecil Epps trials of various designs. Toby Bridges delivered test results of different mfrs. breech plug sizes, shapes and internal configurations of all the M/L plugs. He rated the Traditions and the Knight[which Knight,I never found out],the most effective igniters. It turned out that my 7/8"plug had some kind of material jammed in the flash hole, so I had to closely examine it to see what would be a fix. I found two types of Traditions plugs  about 5/8 size and they had two different powder pocket depths, but the same shape. They could be fitted into the bunged up NEF plug. One was a closed 209 style ,the other was capable of being chambered for a .243 short case which would enable sm.rifle primers in Rem. hulls or Lg.rifle primers in Win.hulls. This offered the full spectrum of primer powers, or,  back to the 209 powered plug. If 209s, even with their diversity of power, were still too powerful, there was the full spread of rifle primers . If they were too powerful ,back to .25ACPs.  You would be able to work up the load of your choice regardless of your choice of powder or bullets. Along comes the NEF-Metrics plug. 5/8" or 7/8".Fantastic . Next comes the Remington news ; even better ,but a year away. 3 steps back! In the Remington wish-list was a whole bunch of ideas to chew on until Remington produces. Then there's the economy,so will they actually?   Suggestions --fix the plug---we look pretty good there for both sizes. Ram-rod improvement ---working on that---.45 cal fast-twists?  There are a couple of NEF rifle barrels that migt fit the bill. Question ;could a .444 Marlin  1:20 twist bbl. be bored and threaded for a  7/8" NEF/M  M/L breechplug?    Or a 1;20 .45-70?   Or an old .58 cal huntsman?   Or a 12 or 20 ga. shotgun barrel? That's what I've been thinking about and with what I actually KNOW , I'm probably a day late and $5 short.Your collective knowledge might add the ingredients necessary to make these ideas jell. All of my questions have been to help me LEARN what can be done and to put you guy's knowledge to use .  Set me straight but be gentle ,I mean well,    Ken       You still awake??

[kody]

    Kurt, what about my questions on rifling?

[Hammerspur]

#3. Would an older .58 cal. Huntsman ,equipped with the real old slip-in breechplug, be capable of  boring/ tapping for the NEF/ Metrics improved breech plug?   Ken

Dunno' about definite answers to the other questions, but as for #3, if you look at this pic of an OEM push-in and a Hubbard's replacement I believe the answer would be "No."
Note however that they both wear carrierless Hubbard's 209 primer holders which are fully compatible with the old Huntsman and its push-in plug.


As for questions regarding land/groove applications or suitability you might try here:
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/index.php

Specifically this page:
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=13&sid=56769f78b19a09bf3f31aee8f390c6c0

Be forewarned, if not already registered there you need to sign up on this forum to access the good pages.

[kody]

  It sure looks like you're right on the .58. , so I'll erase that possibility. I thoroughly checked that other site ,but couldn't find any rifling info . I did ask about it though and I'll wait and see if I get any response. Thank you for your help,   Ken

[PHATINJUN]

"Ken where are you finding this info for the Metrics/NEF plugs? Kurt"

Ok let me ask this a differant way. What Is Metrics?

From your #3?? "#3. Would an older .58 cal. Huntsman ,equipped with the real old slip-in breechplug, be capable of  boring/ tapping for the NEF/ Metrics improved breech plug? "

What is a Metrics/NEF Improved breech plug??? Who is Metrics???Thanks

As far as the rifling in these guns it's my understanding it is all shallow .But I have not paid much attention to that as I don't know what deep rifling is either. Kurt

[PHATINJUN]

The breech plug on the pop in plug for both the .58 and the 12ga is .923 +or-... the screw in plug for my other .58 is .874 +or- so you would not be able to tap the push in gun for a 7/8" threaded plug with out plugging then reboring to tap.
I don't know for sure but the more times I read your post maybe I get a better understanding of what you may be trying to look at. For what ever I do or don't know about this here is what I believe. You could probly use any bbl or caliber and make it into a ML and find componets that will work whether it's a 22 Hornet or a 45/70 you would just have to machine the plug and powder chamber accordingly.But just taking one of those calibers and putting a breech plug in would not be a good idea with out  correct dimensions for what ever the caliber may be. As far as using a shotgun bbl that would be even harder I would think cause you have to deal with the forcing cone dimensions. I don't know if this helps you or not...but that's my story and I'm stickin to it. Kurt

[kody]

  Sorry ,I didn't make my presentation totally clear either. Your latest answer didn't enlighten me on the land/groove diameter comparisons between .45Cal. M/L rifles and those of .45 cal.Long colts or .45-70s. Are M/L barrels equipped with deeper grooves ,different width ratios of lands/grooves , fewer nos. of lands ,etc. I have given up on the big old slow twist roundball NEF barrels,; not enough meat there! They had been liste on the forum members ' wish-list along with some similar .30 cal ones.The next most preferred item seemed to be a fast twist .45 M/L. I looked at NEF production rifle barrels available in .45 cal. [approx.] that offered a variety of twists ; 1:16 to 1:20. I'm not knowledgable about the ability of a std. rifle barrel's rifling to effectively become a M/L barrel. I felt that a fast-twist M/L barrel might be created if the breech could be bored and threaded to take a 7/8" NEF breechplug.I also have noknowledge of the variety of bullets that would be workable in this caliber Metrics Unlimited is the Mfr. of the plug everyone is rushing to get. Nick Allen?  Now to add the feature I've tried to get going from wayback---, what if you took an NEF,I'll start with the 7/8 plug 'cause that's what I have,and have M/U build a 7/8" threaded plug . Then chamber that plug for a .243 short casing~]. The length of that short case would be determined by the dimensions necessary to fabricate the flash chamber ,flash-hole and the powder-pocket. .243 Rems use sm. Rifle primers; .243 Wins. use lg. Rifle primers. With those choices plus 209s, take your pick of ignition sources. Possibly ,when head spacing is accomplished, an ejector notch could be cut in the lower side of the breechplug. To accept the .243 the hex should be larger ,11/16, ground to fit the barrel opening if necessary,at least 1/4 " or 5/16" in height,and use 6 point sockets, ground off square on the lower end to help stabilize the wrench. I have other ideas along this line , but I'm going to hold them until I see how bad you kick my butt on these ideas! That shotgun barrel idea was to use that forcing cone ,you know ,like a SHOTGUN,smoke pole type!   Ken

[trotterlg]

I think the problem you will find is that for a muzzel loader you need the rifleing to go clear to the bottom of the barrel.  If there is a chamber there then the bullet will fall into it and the powder will run out around it and make a mess in general.  Same goes for a shotgun barrel.  You could make a ML barrel in any cal you like, just machine the breach end for a breach plug and fit it to a H&R stub.  I think the rifleing is about two to three times as deep in a ML as a regular rifle barrel.  There are some British 303 .32 barrels with 5 lands that are very wide, they may work for a .32 ML barrel but the twist is also very fast in them so a round ball would probably shoot poorly.  Larry

[Hammerspur]

I think the problem you will find is that for a muzzel loader you need the rifleing to go clear to the bottom of the barrel.  If there is a chamber there then the bullet will fall into it

    Not necessarily, unless you load a bullet w/no powder or an exceedingly low charge.
I have a .45-70 Shikari Hubbard's muzzleloader conversion and any reasonable BP or replica powder charge easily fills the whole former chamber length and then some... and that's with a concave, conical powder well style breech plug.

[kody]

How tall is a column of 100 grains [volume] of each of the popular M/L propellants ,in a .50 cal ID tube, both loose and tamped? Would you folks with multiple types of powder check this out and pass that figure on. we would then know where the bullet would seat forward of the breech plug. Then we would know the dimension necessary for the sabot to seal. An NEF 7/8" Hubbard's plug is 1.365" L, a.444 Marlin case is 2.225" L ,allowing a .86" gap of.453 dia. for the 100 gr. [V] of powder at which point the rifling shoud start. At least that is the forwardmost edge of a.444 Marlin cartridge. The same point witha .45-70 is 2.105 " forward of the standing breech and the .450 Marlin is 2.100 " so both of those would be even better. I still haven't learned if the rifling on those cartridge barrels would suffice for M/L fodder, with or without sabots ? Along this line, would a .500 S&W with 18 3/4 twist" twist be a candidate for this project?    Ken   

[Hammerspur]

How tall is a column of 100 grains [volume] of each of the popular M/L propellants ,in a .50 cal ID tube, both loose and tamped?

Ken, You're there already if you think about it. 100gr. volume equivalent of anything, including sand is going to take up the same space. Tamping will make a minor difference from one granular substance to another, compressing a greater difference, but probably not all that significant.

If you're that close to getting too little length take-up by propellant load to fill a chamber that's been bored, threaded and breech plugged, that particular chambering probably isn't a good candidate for conversion.

Grab a piece of 1/2" ID tubing and check with volume measured loads of whatever powder... find other diameters of tube that are close to other calibers being considered and do the same.


From the stuff I've seen on MM and elsewhere the fast twists seem best suited to bore size conicals, not sabots.

[TopperT]

.....interesting indeed ........  I know next too NOTHING about different M/L propellants, BUT I do know a bit about Black Powder and I'll add to this that depending on the type, F or FF or FFF, 100 grains makes a HUGE difference.....get into more intricate things VOODO  like duplex loadings and the fun has just begun!.......interesting post however.......

[kody]

  DUH! ANOTHER SENIOR MOMENT!  Indeed ,I do think they WILL all be the same. I am measuring to see if .45 conicals can be fast-twisted out of NEF rifle barrels converted to M/Ls. I'm making  cutaway-drawings of some barrels and the bullets they are chambered for. I am [on paper] adding the NEF/ Metrics Unlimited breechplug measurements into the standard rifle breech. Right now it looks very possible to bring off.    Ken

[PHATINJUN]

I see now where this Metrics unlimited is coming from .I had been ignoring that thread thinking it was still about the Hubbards plug that there were only a couple of made . They look like they will work very well . I may buy one when they come out with the 7/8" then modify it to fit the 25acp. Kurt