Author Topic: Gunpowder (Read 1259 times)

MrJames680 · « **on:** March 12, 2009, 09:42:14 PM »

I am new to reloading.
All the different brands and their types confuses me.
Can some one point out a reference that will help me make more sense.

Thanks
James

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 12, 2009, 11:37:49 PM »

James

Pick up a copy of the Lyman 49th Editoin loading manual , it has a whole section that covers most of the major powders and their uses , other than that you can go the powder companies web sites , they also give some detail of their products .

stimpy

lastchanc54 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 13, 2009, 03:15:34 AM »

Maybe I can help a little. Recently I wanted to buy some powder but I reload for two different rifles and 4 different bullets. I have 5 reloading manuals so I looked up each load and wrote down the top three powders for each bullet and caliber. I still did not have a clear outline of what I should buy becuase each manual recomended something else. What a mess.
My Soultion was to go online to the IMR site and I brough up my first calibler, 223. I printed the entire page then went to the 308 listings and printed those loads. Next I grabbed a highlighter and highlited the top powders for each bullet weight. My results were clear, Varget works for almost anything in these calibers as well as H335. Blc-2 was a top contender but please do your own selection to meet your needs. It is nice to only have to buy one or two powders for most of your rifle reloading. For handguns, I do the same thing and the print out is a handy way to quickly check to confirm your loading data.
Good luck and I hope this helps others who may read it. Ken

AtlLaw · « **Reply #3 on:** March 13, 2009, 04:57:54 AM »

Quote from: stimpylu32 on March 12, 2009, 11:37:49 PM

Pick up a copy of the Lyman 49th Editoin loading manual , it has a whole section that covers most of the major powders and their uses , other than that you can go the powder companies web sites , they also give some detail of their products .

+1
Sometimes I forget how confusing all this can be to a new handloader.

Stimpy's advice is good. Whenever you approach a new subject study everything you can find on it. Develop a knowledge base to build on. With the internet it's not to hard to find more information then you can read. But remember, not all of that information is good or correct information!

Start by getting the Lyman.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 13, 2009, 05:29:37 AM »

What about a recomendation for a first reloading press.
I have seen some cool ballistics programs. Any one have some favorites?

I will be reloading soon, but I am in my research stage now. I tend to get a bit persnickety with my hobbies.

Don't get me started on fishing

Thank for input Stimpy and Ken.

James

skarke · « **Reply #5 on:** March 13, 2009, 05:41:11 AM »

Get a nice single stage, cast iron press. Everybody makes one. The Lee classic cast is a great product for a great price. The Rock Chucker and all the other cast iron o presses are also fine products.

You really don't need a ballistic program. You need a pen and paper, keep excellent notes, and you'll be fine.

Never start at max loads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everybodys dies are good, and will serve you well. Some are great, with a corresponding price.

Get a good scale.

If you are doing bottlenecks, get a case trimmer and chamferer.

Hornady spray lube I like, non petroleum, won't spoil primers.

Get a good book (Lyman!!!) and READ IT!

Keep your work area clean, and tell your family and friends to leave you alone while learning this stuff.

Have fun!!!!

kitchawan kid · « **Reply #6 on:** March 13, 2009, 06:31:09 AM »

What got my attention was having 4 differant reloading books,the starting load in one book was the max load in the other.The Lyman is the one I go by now,or go on IMR's website.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #7 on:** March 13, 2009, 07:46:19 AM »

Gee wizz!

Everybody beats me to it!

All I can say is "what he (whomever the "he" might be at the time) said!"

Well, what the Skarke said...

Quote from: skarke on March 13, 2009, 05:41:11 AM

Get a nice single stage, cast iron press...

I've got 3, a RC, a RC Jr. and an old Pacific (?) plus a Lee C press. Never saw the need for anything else.

Quote

You really don't need a ballistic program.

I think everybody wants to play with one at one time or another, but I use forms I've developed that fit my needs for my detailed notes and plain old folders. I would like to try that fancy load program, but why spend the money while Tim's around!

Quote

Never start at max loads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Follow all safety rules in the manual(s) to the letter!

Quote

Everybodys dies are good,

I've got Lee's, Reddings, RCBS, and Hornady and like 'em all. They kinda like wimmins... some are prettier then others but they all get the job done. Hi-ebber, and day always be a hi-ebber, I will grant you that some get the job done, uh, ... with more finess then others!

Quote

Get a good scale.

don't worry about no fancy 'lectronic stuff! But get a good balance beam!

Quote

a case trimmer and chamferer.
Hornady spray lube
good book
READ IT!
Keep your work area clean
(everybody) leave you alone

check, check, check, check, check check, and most of all

Quote

Have fun!!!!

CHECK!

Steve P · « **Reply #8 on:** March 13, 2009, 10:11:53 AM »

You know what everyone so far has missed? A reloading buddy or mentor. Did you know that a good mentor will cut your reading and choices and component selection time in more than half? Did you know a mentor could help you set up your press and dies, and have you kicking out QUALITY reloads, without any waste in time or components?

Did you know if you start off with a stick powder, you will probably need a powder trickler to get more consistent loads? If you start off using a ball powder, you wont need the trickler if you have a good powder measure! In some guns ball powder makes a lot of noise. In other guns it is no louder than the stick powder. Did you know your powder selection will also likely determine your primer selection?

Reloading manuals are "reference" books. They are not bibles nor cook books. They DO NOT have the recipe for your gun. They can help you get there, but you have to do all of trial and error yourself.

Most manufacturors now days use shooting "fixtures" to tailor their loads. These are usually bolt actions bolted to a bench with removable barrels. They will describe their barrel, twist rate, primer used, and the length to which they loaded their ammo. The fixture stays in place and they fire X number of shots down range into a paper roll. No target, just holes in paper that they measure for group.

Some of the manufacturors will still use a specific firearm and they do a pretty good job describing the gun, but still, their recipe is tailored to that gun. By reading several different manuals, you can get a broader spectrum of what components can do by specific caliber. Barrel length, primer used, etc will make an impact on how the "recipe" may or may not work for your specific firearm.

Here are a couple examples of disclaimers and notations in loading manuals. These are available on-line and are excellent opportunity for you to gleen important reloading information without having to spend $$ to get it.

Good luck with your new hobby. It will be easier than picking the first lure to try on opening day.

Steve

bilmac · « **Reply #9 on:** March 13, 2009, 10:15:53 AM »

You may start out with all good intentions about sticking to one or two powders, that's how I started, but now I have a whole shelf full of different kinds. This loading thing kind of gets in your blood and if you are like most you will soon be chasing that perfect load that will shrink your groups another 1/2". Sounds a little expensive but it's money way better spent than sitting in the bar.

Steve Don't you know Mr James has a whole team of mentors right at his fingertips.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 13, 2009, 12:15:14 PM »

+1 on having good intentions using a couple of powders and ending up with a whole shelf full of similar powders.

I use several reloading manuals and at times they have very dissimilar results using the same powder and bullet weights. I have got to the point of trying my first powder that all or most all the manuals seem to have similar results with. Just as a starting point. If three manuals have very close to the same powder charges with close to the same velocity results, I figure the powder must perform nearly the same in different guns so it is a good starting point - I do not always end up with it - but it is a starting point. I guess that is why they sell so many different powders - there just is not a magic powder out here. Good Luck and Good Shooting on your reloading adventure. There are lots of guys willing to help you right here. I had no internet and no mentors, just my reloading books and lots of ruined cases (setting dies can be tricky to a newbie) and components to learn from.

bilmac · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2009, 12:19:16 PM »

Some of the older Lyman manuals had listed what they called accuracy loads, and by golly oftentimes these were pretty good loads. The new manuals don't have them anymore.

mantley · « **Reply #12 on:** March 13, 2009, 12:36:21 PM »

With the supply of powder becoming harder to get especially from the major manufacturers. I would suggest getting an available powder and work up a decent load. Then explore refining it with different powders when they are available. If you find a better load, you can store the remainder for a backup or sell it - the way powder prices are going it may be a good investment.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 13, 2009, 12:42:22 PM »

This is great stuff guys! You all fill in the blanks well. The tid-bits are a goldmine for me.

I am bummed about the ballistics program tho. I am a computer tech for Chevron HQ, so computer stuff is up my alley. I already have like 6 programs and am pretty much bored with them anyway. Just hoping for something to respark my interest with it. I'll just drop it per advise here. $:-\$

It shouldnt be to long untill I start buggin ya'll for reloading equipment.

BTW- What is the deal with all this shortage of primer and powder I hear about?

Steve: I have been using the same darn lure on opening day for the last 17 years. Rarely skunked.

Ever in California... I'll get you catchin. Fishing is for the people who dont know how to catch.

J/K

Skunk · « **Reply #14 on:** March 13, 2009, 12:46:43 PM »

MrJames,

Ballistics programs might not be necessary, but that doesn't mean you have to avoid them. Get one and use it if that's what you want.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 16, 2009, 06:27:40 PM »

OK, So I have a 'loaded' question I think.
I met this guy who'd been reloading for all of time it seems.
I was asking some reloading questions when he offered a tidbit of info I didn't believe a decent hand loader would give. Seems he like to play with what they call a duplex load. Mixing powders for short. Before some one gives me a tongue lashing, I have done my reading and have seen over and over......., that this is a real bad practice to get into. DANGEROUS! So, I wont do it. Promise!

One thing to know about me is that I am meticulous, methodical, and detail oriented. I build RC helicopters and build rods and tie fly's and work on computers and rebuild cars when I have time. I like to do things right. But there is a part of me that always wants to know how and why.

So what does help out a load when mixing. What makes it so dangerous exactly, and what is the thinking/theory behind it all. If the powers that be decide that this question best be not answered here, that is totally fine, but an email would be nice.

bilmac · « **Reply #16 on:** March 17, 2009, 01:32:07 AM »

The theory is that a fast powder at the bottom helps light off a slow main charge. They claim super accuracy and other good things, but I'm like you, that is one step that I won't take, it's kind of like witches brews to me.

lastchanc54 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 17, 2009, 02:11:41 PM »

Wow, just the mention of duplex powders sends shivers up and down my spine. In 25 years of reloading, I have never needed nor wanted to try to mess with Duplex loads. In fact I have never met anyone who even tried it.
I did just buy a Lee 4 hole turret press from Midway usa for 95.00, I like it! It is slow enough to give you total control and fast enough to get some work done! You may want to read the reviews from others who bought them. Not a bad deal and works great on pistol ammo.
Best of luck, Ken

MrJames680 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 17, 2009, 03:19:29 PM »

Thanks Ken.
I have read up on the Lee Turret Press.
Thinking about going simpler than that for my first go-round..
In respect to the duplex loads....
I found it to be most common with BP loads to keep them firing clean.

Dand · « **Reply #19 on:** March 21, 2009, 12:19:15 AM »

Yeah Mr. James good on ya for doing your reading. The poster suggesting a mentor is a good idea but as you have just experienced, not all reloaders are good mentors. Duplex is for the daring and really experienced. I never do it. Have been reloading since about 1977 and had a good mentoring neighbor show me the ropes before that. I think this web site is one of the best mentors around. Its pretty carefully policed and I have never seen any really bad advice. Its one reason I hang here - good folks, clean language, friendly attitude, and very watchful moderators and head man. Lively discussions yes but not raggin on each other. One loading book I like for its cautious approach and depth of experience is Ken Waters' Pet Loads from Wolfe Publishing. Some of the data is getting a little dated but he has a wealth of experience and tips for individual cartridges that can help one narrow down the powder choices - tho a lot of the newer powders aren't in it. If I was buying a new press now, I'd get the Lee Classic cast turret press - I use a Lyman Turret and used to have an RCBS Jr press. I like the compound leverage of most of the currently made presses. I like the Lyman universal case trimmer, Hornady balance scale, RCBS, Lyman, and Lee dies. If I were to buy new rifle dies I'd look at those that have the seater that keeps the bullet lined up as its started into the die - I think Hornadys do that. The RCBS X dies that limit case stretch are appealing too. I have most of the reloading manuals that are printed and commonly consult the powder makers' websites. But I'm cluttering you with details. Have fun.

BBF · « **Reply #20 on:** March 21, 2009, 11:29:25 AM »

Re Duplex Loads:
First of all let me asure you that a duplex load is not two or more powders mixed together like a seasoning receipe but carefully placed seperatley in the cartridge even with some very light and thin paper between each type.
The usual mix of two is to use a very small amount of fast powder next to the primer to get a larger and much slower amount of powder lit.
The other possibility is to place the fast powder on top of the larger slower charge to create something that would function similar to a rail gun.
As the slower powder has propelled and accelerated the bullet down the barrel, the fast powder is lit up acting as an afterburner for a final kick.

Please DO NOT consider my post as an endorsement for this sort of loading.

John Traveler · « **Reply #21 on:** March 21, 2009, 01:17:21 PM »

As far as I am concerned, the ONLY acceptable place to use a duplex load is to prime a large capacity black powder charge using less than a 10% of fast pistol powder. This combination indeed does burn cleaner and give more uniform ballistics than a straight BP charge. I am no alone in this, and it has been proven safe by professional ballisticians and several generations of BP shooters.

As far as duplexing smokeless powders, that is absolutely tossing the dice, and the dice are LOADED! I believe the first published duplex and triplex loads were done by Dick Casull of the .454 Casull cartridge. He used tyriplex loads of Bullsey, Unique, and 2400 powders to achieve bother ferocious velocities AND chamber pressures! I believe he suceeded in blowing up a couple revolvers in developing the cartridge, and this is not something for the casual experimenter to mess with! As the late, great P.O. Ackley wrote, "You can make chamber pressures anything you want them to be."

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 21, 2009, 02:33:31 PM »

The first true duplex loads were designed for the big english doubles like the 600 and 700 nitro express using black powder , even with that many a fine rifles were distroyed in the process .

stimpy

MrJames680 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 21, 2009, 07:47:10 PM »

Well,
I do have(Dad has...) a 45-70 Trapdoor that would be a great candidate for BP duplex. But its a Trapdoor and I will only use BP exclusively in it unless some one can detail a safe load for it. Besides, the gun is so old and we should frame it and convert it to art despite its great condition. (Handi 45-70 anyone?)

As far as a reloading press, I have settled on a Lee kit. Cheap, comes with a lot of bells and whistles. Read nothing bad... I dont think that I will need anything more. It will be for my .243Win. My next barrel will be .223Rem. Well.. maybe a 45-70. There is a special place for that .cal in my heart. Unless some one can offer me a 45-120.

As soon as I can, I will post a range report detailing the difference between hand loads and factory from a beginner stand point (good or bad). I am confident that I can show a nice difference. One of the sites I read that I really like was:

http://carteach0.blogspot.com/ (starting with case prep part 1)

I like this methodology and would love to see any, if any, criticism on it.

Thank you all!!!!

Troyboy · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2009, 09:55:25 AM »

Just remember that saving money reloading is an oxymoron.