Author Topic: Oath Keepers: Orders We Will Not Obey (Read 5104 times)

ironglow · « **Reply #90 on:** March 23, 2009, 12:49:11 AM »

TM;
I believe the detention centers may well be there and funds allocated, but where we disagree is the motives behind the deed. I expect that in 2001 they honestly expected the possibility of needing to round up terrorists and have a place for POWs. They could start to close them now, especially since the current admin even wants to close Gitmo.
BTW: are we ready for terrorist captives from the battlefield living among us ?
Until recently, I dismissed conspiracy, shadow governments as at worst, just tacit agreements among ivy league "brothers", but looking at the current siutuation, things may have jumped up a notch.
The gang occupying the White House (IMO) are really messing up because George Soros and his "Open Society Institute" are just jerking too hard on the strings. Of course George figures he bought & paid for this administration, so he doesn't mind jerking hard on the reins.
Worth a look:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Open_Society_Institute
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/funderprofile.asp?fndid=5181&category=79

beerbelly · « **Reply #91 on:** March 23, 2009, 01:55:53 AM »

We already have a place for terrorists, it is called Gitmo and Obama is closing it. No I don't think those places are for his brother Muslims!
Beerbelly

ironglow · « **Reply #92 on:** March 23, 2009, 04:21:39 AM »

TM;
I'm not just dismissing everything you say, but I would prefer to watch what a man does rather than to hearken to what he says.
I know you doubt much of W's motives..yet his actions seemed to be in favor of the US in all aspects.
It certainly appears that every move this administration makes is purposely intended to weaken & wreck this country. Just show us an initriative recently enacted by Obama and his majority on capital hill that doesn't do some kind of damage to the country! It is no secret that George Soros is a major $$$$$$$ benefactor of Barack Hussein Obama and John Kerry. He has been accused of doing his best to destroy other nation's economies and it looks like he is trying it here. His organization http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/funderprofile.asp?fndid=5181&category=79 seems to support everything that most Americans are either in opposition with or very suspicious of. I think we have discussed here enough how many on the far left have an ingrained hatred of the United States, and it is evident in everything they do. As would be said in Texas, they don't just hate the U.S.; they are "eat up" with their hatred.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #93 on:** March 23, 2009, 04:37:57 AM »

Quote from: beerbelly on March 23, 2009, 01:55:53 AM

We already have a place for terrorists, it is called Gitmo and Obama is closing it. No I don't think those places are for his brother Muslims!
Beerbelly

Thanks to obamanation, we likely will have these thugs living in our neighborhoods.

ironglow · « **Reply #94 on:** March 23, 2009, 04:47:40 AM »

Here is a great read by a meticulous researcher;
It tells just how we got mired in the middle east, the rise of Islamic fanaticism and the part Jimmy Carter allowed, promoted and funded it. Now Barack Hussein Obama (Jimmy Carter II) is bound he is going to keep the crazies going strong.
Here is a link to the book..just read some of the reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/Jimmy-Carter-Liberal-World-Chaos/dp/0935199330/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237819064&sr=1-1

FWiedner · « **Reply #95 on:** March 23, 2009, 06:53:52 AM »

History..., recent history proves you wrong and that your faith in government employees will be your end. Remember New Orleans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm5PC7z79-8

Watch the video. Listen as these goons lament the fact that they are violating Constitutional law even as they "just follow orders."

Listen to the last interview as the last little pr*ck discusses how sad he will be to kill american citizens.

I think that you may be blind as well as deaf.

jimster · « **Reply #96 on:** March 23, 2009, 11:46:22 AM »

Probably would be a good idea to consider not all solders will follow orders, and some will...not all States will be so easy going....some will shoot at the solders without thinking twice about it...not every situation will be under water either and part of a natural disaster. I doubt anyone knows how many either way...but I know two solders for sure that will fight with us as I mentioned earlier, I doubt they are alone. Basically...if something like this ever happens, it will be a mess and pretty confusing for a lot of people. People have different attitudes all over the country, that includes solders. I hope we don't find out how many will or won't either way. It would not be easy to disarm the entire US....they know that. The probably know which parts of the country would fight like all heck too, and which ones might not. They are not totally stupid. Recent history also shows us some will fight back, and pretty hard. But the Alamo thing where you boxed in your place is not good! Once millions of Americans figured out becoming mobil and picking the time and place lets you live a might longer...it becomes REAL tough on government....there are millions of guns and people here, I would not count them all out, a small number of people lead by those with calm heads and experience and communications is going to be a big problem for any government.
Heck, we had to arm Iraq to just get by....trying to disarm all of them was NOT POSSIBLE....and that is with the best military in the world. Even France had underground people who would not give up whiel Germany was there.

I just hope none of this happens in my life.....but if it does, I'm going to look for the leaders with a brain, experience and some plans to make it worth while.

ironglow · « **Reply #97 on:** March 23, 2009, 03:59:18 PM »

FW;
No doubt there will be some that will just "follow orders", no matter what..doesn't mean all will. It does appear that the last guy interviewed was speaking about an armed confrontation, not just breaking into a home. In a direct, armed confrontation I would expect anybody on either side to protect themself..only stands to reason.
But remember, we are talking New Orleans here..sorry N.O. residents, but I have always figured N.O. to be a "little different" as far as politics and law enforcement goes.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #98 on:** March 23, 2009, 04:32:01 PM »

In the first place the only people shot at by the military in N.O. were people shooting at rescue volunteers after the storm and flood.

ironglow · « **Reply #99 on:** March 24, 2009, 12:44:34 AM »

...In any case, I wouldn't expect that if the military were fired upon..they should just "grin & bear it". I think that those who do not wish to attack Americans will make their case before that point...

ironglow · « **Reply #100 on:** March 24, 2009, 02:56:09 AM »

Guess I missed something.., I know there was a narrow line at Waco (army equipment, supposedly run by FBI) and with Elian Gonzalez; but where in this country did Bush commit the US military against US citizens ?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #101 on:** March 24, 2009, 03:45:41 AM »

so the night before operations start the troops take a leave of absents from the military and become FBI or state troopers or what ever name you wish .

myronman3 · « **Reply #102 on:** March 24, 2009, 07:05:52 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on March 24, 2009, 03:45:41 AM

so the night before operations start the troops take a leave of absents from the military and become FBI or state troopers or what ever name you wish .

it doesnt work that way. couldnt and wouldnt.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #103 on:** March 24, 2009, 07:14:07 AM »

it was reported a few did just that at Waco .but never heard if it was true.
not the same but similar the game wardens in Va are now game police .
It allows them to move back and forth as need requires .
I have to ask why could it not work that way ?

ironglow · « **Reply #104 on:** March 24, 2009, 08:02:52 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on March 24, 2009, 02:33:56 AM

Point is,,,We shouldn't even have to have these discussions....the use of American military on US citizens was illegal until the Bush regime. Now we're discussing what will happen when they do use troops. Use of NG by states is another question.

..TM7

...Answering the above quote implying that Bush used federal troops against US citizens.....

One problem;
Waco may have been all that..but "W" had nothing to do with Waco..that was a Clinton, Gen Wesley Clark show. Bush may have been Gov of Texas, but we're talking federal equipment (not sure about troops..other than Clark).
The fact that the NG was not employed may be an indicator that the Gov of Texas wanted no part of the "Waco Massacre"....

myronman3 · « **Reply #105 on:** March 24, 2009, 08:58:36 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on March 24, 2009, 07:14:07 AM

it was reported a few did just that at Waco .but never heard if it was true.
not the same but similar the game wardens in Va are now game police .
It allows them to move back and forth as need requires .
I have to ask why could it not work that way ?

they are entirely different enterprises. the fbi wouldnt let joe assume their identity for any length of time. they will come and train with the military, but it is a one way street. egos are too big. the really funny thing is i have more confidence in a 19 year old infantryman than i do in a "seasoned" fbi agent. whenever we had training and these dopes were observing or involved, they always looked like fools and did not measure up in any comparible way. but yet, they thought of alot of themselves.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #106 on:** March 25, 2009, 10:17:54 AM »

you and i both know that it could happen things get railroaded all the time .
now consider this , our law makers pass laws , change the consitution thru . due course of law ( it can be done with a great amount of effort ) .
Then in effect out troops would be fireing on those who are trying to over throw "our " govt. by force ?
This could be the Change so many have oked with their blue vote .

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #107 on:** March 25, 2009, 10:20:52 AM »

and i agree about the 19 year old vs. a political

ironglow · « **Reply #108 on:** March 25, 2009, 11:46:38 AM »

I have to concur with Myronman, especially since Ruby Ridge & Waco ..a 19 year old trooper probably retains a greater part of his scruples.
If a 19 year old unnecessarily kills women & children in an ENEMY village..he will be brought up on charges..and if he did unnecessarily kill them, he will likely go to "crossbar hotel" for a long time, yet I saw no trial of the perps at Waco and the guy that shot Mrs. weaver inthe face was promoted by Clinton.
Not a doubt in my mind the average 19 yr old trooper is morally far above the average politico....

FWiedner · « **Reply #109 on:** March 25, 2009, 11:53:13 AM »

Are you kidding me?

The average 19 year-old fresh out of recruit-training is so brain-washed that he thinks his rank is his first name. The only thing he's interested in is proving that he can kill something and not give a darn, that the only thing he feels is "recoil".

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #110 on:** March 25, 2009, 12:08:18 PM »

i know what you talkin mr. wiednor.. but you let him see some of his elderly kin imprisoned for guns .. hes gonna grow up right quick...
im thinking slim....ps... in fact im counting on it..

mirage1988 · « **Reply #111 on:** March 25, 2009, 12:14:39 PM »

Actually Fwiedner-
The "average" 19 year old joined the military by his or her own choice, either from love of their country, or they came from a family of soldiers. If 19 year olds just want to kill something, they will sit on the couch and kill stuff on the video game screen,or take it to the streets of LA, Detroit, Minneapolis, Chicago, and any other city. I have several cousins that joined during the Iraq war because it was the right thing for them to do, they are all hunters- not killers.

ironglow · « **Reply #112 on:** March 25, 2009, 12:15:21 PM »

I know a lot of current troops, and as I said in other posts on GB's..we canopt judge today's troops by the period when many of us served. Today's troops, especially those in spec ops & combat arms are far and away more dedicated, and more professional than ever.It has been proven that the average young military is has a higher IQ than his/her civilian counterpart. Don't judge today's troops by yesterday.

mirage1988 · « **Reply #113 on:** March 25, 2009, 02:09:29 PM »

Quote from: TM7 on March 25, 2009, 02:03:06 PM

My understanding is the government's private army consist of 30%, or more, foreign born troops. Get a grip.

...TM7

What are the "foreign born troops" risking their lives for?, certainly not for the political whimsies of the white house!

teamnelson · « **Reply #114 on:** March 25, 2009, 05:07:40 PM »

Quote from: FWiedner on March 25, 2009, 11:53:13 AM

The average 19 year-old fresh out of recruit-training is so brain-washed that he thinks his rank is his first name. The only thing he's interested in is proving that he can kill something and not give a darn, that the only thing he feels is "recoil".

It may be useful for the rest of us if you provided us the sources of your information upon which you have based your conclusion. Its clear you've not spent time around 19 yo recruits, so you must have access to another source with which we are not familiar. I wouldn't think the media is your source; you do not strike me as the type of guy who automatically believes everything you see on TV, but your comments are nearly cut and paste from them.

Trying to figure out how someone could have such a twisted view of the military and cling to it so tightly.

Skunk · « **Reply #115 on:** March 25, 2009, 05:14:00 PM »

TN, it's obviously just a value judgment on his part.

teamnelson · « **Reply #116 on:** March 25, 2009, 06:50:54 PM »

Quote from: mirage1988 on March 25, 2009, 02:09:29 PM

Quote from: TM7 on March 25, 2009, 02:03:06 PM
My understanding is the government's private army consist of 30%, or more, foreign born troops. Get a grip.

...TM7

What are the "foreign born troops" risking their lives for?, certainly not for the political whimsies of the white house!

It is estimated that nearly 20% of continental troops were foreign born; some units as high as 40%. Thank God for their service.

teamnelson · « **Reply #117 on:** March 26, 2009, 06:55:56 AM »

TM7,

Thanks, you made a good point: "assigning your value system or rational scheme of things to everything and everybody is an error." That works both ways in this dialogue. Many here evidently find it difficult to imagine that anyone would join the military apart from opportunistic or sociopathic ideals.

Having served in the Cold War I have direct knowledge of what a political officer is, and I am not one of those. It seems as though very few Americans realize how little support our military gives to our country's current "policies" and "politics." In fact most of what I have seen in OIF has been mitigating and diffusing policy through implementation - i.e. they send us lemons, we make lemonade. As a Chaplain, I was constantly asked if we were doing the right thing, and I asked my fellow Chaplains on the battlefield, and they all concurred - Am I doing the right thing is the number one concern of folks on the battlefield. And what was our answer? I don't know. Is it right to volunteer to defend the constitution and our way of life? Yes. Is it right to leave Iraq better than we found it? Sure, but I know that when we pull out there will be civil war. Was it right to come in the first place? I'm leaning towards no, but ... the big issue is the individual self. Am I personally doing the right thing?

I take that as a good sign that our troops have a conscience, and that they do not indiscriminately follow orders. They joined to protect something they value, and the politicians sent them to Iraq - might as well make the best of it. Policy change comes from American citizens involved in the process. We (service members) have little to no impact on policy change, but we can do our best to ensure that policy implementation is done as morally as is feasible ... or quit as many do.

The continental army served in 1776, not today. 40% Irish and Scots in some of the state's troops. Without those foreign born troops, we'd have been the colonies for a bit longer.

ironglow · « **Reply #118 on:** March 27, 2009, 03:13:43 PM »

Reading the posts in this thread has provided some real insight. I believe each has given their opinion as they truly believe things are.Curiously, the attitude and personalityof each poster shows through. I am convinced that each of us has placed our beliefs and values upon the young troops...especially those of us who are veterans.
If we see the troops as idealistic and honor driven..that also is a bit of our attitude and personality showing through, that is about how we live..
If we see them as opportunistic and money-grubbing..that also is a bit of our attitude and personality showing through; that is about how we live.
People do tend to transfer their values onto others..assuming that most think as they do.

I must admit though, much of my opinion has developed from present troops that I personally know..

FWiedner · « **Reply #119 on:** March 27, 2009, 03:42:24 PM »

I spent over a decade on active duty observing the actions and mind-set of young military persons first-hand.

They will do what they are told when they are told to do it, and they will be confused about being accused of attrocities when they are brought up on charges by the very officers that ordered them to commit them.

Your sons and daughters will betray you, and then their leaders will betray them.

I'd suggest you shoot first.