Oath Keepers: Orders We Will Not Obey

[TM7]

MMmm an interesting site.

Oath Keepers: Orders We Will Not Obey

http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/2009/03/oath-keepers-declaration-of-orders-we.html


...TM7

[DalesCarpentry]

I think most people here would agree with that site. Dale

[Cabin4]

They violate their oath everyday. They are traitors to the people.

[DalesCarpentry]

They violate their oath everyday. They are traitors to the people.

Who are you talking about? Do you mean the people of that site? Dale

[Cabin4]

They violate their oath everyday. They are traitors to the people.

Who are you talking about? Do you mean the people of that site? Dale

Most all politicians violate their oath.

[Swampman]

Many surveys show that the US military will do exactly what they are told.  Don't fool yourself.

[nomosendero]

I was given a copy of that yesterday.

[Cabin4]

They violate their oath everyday. They are traitors to the people.

Who are you talking about? Do you mean the people of that site? Dale

Most all politicians violate their oath.

.
The site isn't talking about politicians....its talking about the military and their oath and what might come from 'hardened' troops.

..TM7

I know. Was just throwing in the comment about politicians violate as well and all the time.

[Skunk]

They violate their oath everyday. They are traitors to the people.

Who are you talking about? Do you mean the people of that site? Dale

Most all politicians violate their oath.

.
The site isn't talking about politicians....its talking about the military and their oath and what might come from 'hardened' troops.

..TM7

I know. Was just throwing in the comment about politicians violate as well and all the time.

Just throwing in a comment that has nothing to do with the topic? Jeez Cabin, to think of the lecture you gave me for doing that same thing.  I guess it's OK if you do though.

[Cabin4]

They violate their oath everyday. They are traitors to the people.

Who are you talking about? Do you mean the people of that site? Dale

Most all politicians violate their oath.

.
The site isn't talking about politicians....its talking about the military and their oath and what might come from 'hardened' troops.

..TM7

I know. Was just throwing in the comment about politicians violate as well and all the time.

Just throwing in a comment that has nothing to do with the topic? Jeez Cabin, to think of the lecture you gave me for doing that same thing.  I guess it's OK if you do though.

Skunk,

No not really. My comment here was in concurrence and directly concerning the violation for "oath of office" as a way to expand the conversation beyond "oath of duty". Your addition on the other post had nothing to do with the topic and was only an attempt to criticize.

There's a huge difference and I've moved on from that anyway.

[Graybeard]

I sincerely HOPE I'm wrong but sadly I BELIEVE that the majority (the VAST majority) of both military and police will obey the orders when the time comes to violate the Constitution and to take guns and homes from American citizens and will in fact fire on us.

Live free or die.   

[Cabin4]

This may be even more sad on my part: There's no question in my mind that they will violently, violate our rights and or shoot us. They will need to do that with me as I have no plans to give up what is rightfully mine or join in on the coup.

[SHOOTALL]

Reduce it to simple terms . If you were faced with sticking with the military or siding with the population . Who has the most ? guns , food , medical supplies ? Only if the military from the top down decides to not follow illegal orders will they not do as told . One has to wonder if the new police force is not to offset the possible refusal of the military as a whole to follow orders ? I hope it never happens as the hell we will live or die in would be impossible to recover from for a long time if ever .

[Guy Pike]

To a man the Nazi's at Nuremburg said, "I was following orders." Why would one expect any different from our own troops? Patience and a disregard for human life could eventually win out. It will be a long haul.

[teamnelson]

The fact that so many no longer trust their own sons and grandsons is evidence to me that our society has not personally invested in our own values, and abdicated our responsibilities to the state education system. If there are any liberal brainwashed troops out there, it started long before their oath, while they were still living at home with their parents.

As a Chaplain (and former Marine SNCO) who has served multiple tours in combat, I disagree with GB and Swampy. What I see every single day, especially in combat, has shown me the caliber of the young folks who are volunteering during a time of war. I trust that most of them will do the right thing when it matters.

[Skunk]

As a Chaplain (and former Marine SNCO) who has served multiple tours in combat, I disagree with GB and Swampy. What I see every single day, especially in combat, has shown me the caliber of the young folks who are volunteering during a time of war. I trust that most of them will do the right thing when it matters.

That might be true TN, but I'll bet a bunch of us will have to die first before their ethics and morels kick in to the point where they'll quit killing us.

[teamnelson]

That might be true TN, but I'll bet a bunch of us will have to die first before their ethics and morels kick in to the point where they'll quit killing us.

Do you have any children in the military? Have you served? On the one hand we'll wave a flag and tie ribbons, and put stickers on our cars that say support our troops. But a new president is in the white house and now we fear our troops? I don't get it.

[Skunk]

TN, I'm just saying that I think the military and police will at first follow their orders. If they are ordered to take our guns for example, the military or even the local police are going to attempt to follow those orders just like the rest of the orders they are trained to follow. And if we're not willing to give up our guns peacefully, then they will attempt to take the guns whether we are in agreement or not - even if they have to kills us to get them. Only after they have killed enough of their fellow citizens and are so sick of it, especially when they realize we have done nothing wrong and broke no laws, will they hopefully come to the conclusion that it's wrong and might start refusing the orders. But until their sense of what's Right really kicks in, I'm thinking a bunch of us are going to be dead little ducklings. Is that more understandable? What would you have done when you were in the service, given how taboo it is to refuse orders from upper command?

[SHOOTALL]

I have the highest regard for our military . That said In Viet Nam when the Military was being USED as a pon in a political war they backed off to a degree . Many left the military because of it . If they are once again USED as political pons you may see different that what you expect .
Keep in mind also many of the ones they would be taking guns from are ex-military not just untrained citizens and more are retired than serving a point that should not be over looked . Also in Viet Nam and the Gulf war it was not easy to disarm a population determined to not be disarmed .
Lets vote to change things as soon as possible not go to war on ourselves as the cost would be to great .

[DalesCarpentry]

I sure would not want to be a GI or law enforcement person if that day comes. I am sure there will be killing involved. I don't even want to be me on that day. Dale

[teamnelson]

What would you have done when you were in the service, given how taboo it is to refuse orders from upper command?

It is not taboo as many seem to think, and I am still in service, just as an officer now. I have and will again refuse unlawful (unconstitutional) orders, and would be a very strong voice against giving the same in my role as moral advisor to the commander.

Here are two Articles of the Code of Conduct that pertain to this discussion (for those that have never been required to scream them at the top of their lungs until its etched on the brain.) This is trained daily in every officer program, most SNCO schools, and every boot camp/basic training we have. Its revisited every 6 mos. as part of mandatory training.

Article I:  I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life.  I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

Article VI:  I will never forget that I am an American, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free.  I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

For many this is a moral code, frequently tattoed on some part of the body, right next to the Bible verse about greater love. Does this sound like the code of someone who blindly follows orders, and would open fire on their country, their way of life, or the principles which make our country free?

Disarming is contra-productive in a counterinsurgency, you want armed citizenry ... just on your side. Your military has become the world's leading experts on counterinsurgency, and in liberating folks from oppressive governments - not enslaving them. Marines are trained for months prior to going to OIF and OEF specifically on how to discern a combatant from a non-combatant, and to err on the side of taking fire first rather than to harm a non-combatant. Those who don't get it in training, don't go to war - I've seen it often. And those who harm the innocent in OIF and OEF are swiftly removed, investigated and punished.

Obama has already indicated his understanding that the military would not just along with him no matter what, which is why he has discussed the formation of a national security or civil defense force. Now THAT I would be afraid of.

[jimster]

I would not want to be me neither Dale, what a mess that would be.  Some LEO's would not, some would, same for solders, same for everyone, that's why they call things like that a mess.  I agree it's about impossible to disarm a people intent on not being disarmed.  Just think if entire states tried to break off and defend against tyranny.  At any rate, let's hope we don't see a mess like that,  many would be killed.  I hope we can find another way,  hope the people in our government are smart enough to know what a mess it would be to disarm people after all these years.  If they wait long enough for us older folks to die off, our numbers will be fewer and fewer over many years of brainwashing....then I'll be dead and won't have to see this or be part of it.  Not sure what's the best way to die, but I would hope it's not from an armored tank shooting things at me with a U.S emblem on it. That would be a bad way to go emotionally.  No peace there.

[Skunk]

What would you have done when you were in the service, given how taboo it is to refuse orders from upper command?

It is not taboo as many seem to think, and I am still in service, just as an officer now. I have and will again refuse unlawful (unconstitutional) orders, and would be a very strong voice against giving the same in my role as moral advisor to the commander.

God Bless you TN. The rest of your post is also very encouraging. I have the utmost respect for our military, past and present. My Dad nearly died in Korea, but in the end he was always happy to have served our country. I truly hope and pray that it's like you are saying. And like Dale and Jimster mentioned, what a horrible position for the troops and police to be in. It's just a no win situation that hopefully we can resolve in a more peaceful manner.

[WylieKy]

I sure would not want to be a GI or law enforcement person if that day comes. I am sure there will be killing involved. I don't even want to be me on that day. Dale

I don't even want to be you right now, Dale.      I couldn't resist.

I think the military will probably do what they are told.  That is what is taught from boot camp on.  If the military leadership falls, the rest will follow suit (with a few exceptions.) 

They will need to do that with me as I have no plans to give up what is rightfully mine or join in on the coup.

We (gun owners and true patriots) are being marginalized every day. From Jeff Foxworthy to SNL to *Insert mass media here* we are being made to look like ignorant rednecks.  Gun owners and patriots are on the decline, and I think we will disappear in the next two generations (unless we win).  JMHO.

[Cabin4]

I can't tell if that’s a complimentary or criticizing use of my quote.

[Graybeard]

That might be true TN, but I'll bet a bunch of us will have to die first before their ethics and morels kick in to the point where they'll quit killing us.

Do you have any children in the military? Have you served? On the one hand we'll wave a flag and tie ribbons, and put stickers on our cars that say support our troops. But a new president is in the white house and now we fear our troops? I don't get it.

I hope and pray you are correct but fear you are mistaken.

They are laying the ground work for this in each and every engagement they stick our troops in these days. They are following orders now and taking arms from the citizens of all those countries we go into and now they are setting up a command in the US to use soldiers in a similar capacity here. They will be trained and have it drilled into their heads that anyone who doesn't lay down arms and surrender when told is the enemy and are to be shot. I believe that most of the young troops will do as ordered. The only salvation as I see it is if those older heads in the officer and NCO corps who know better refuse to pass the orders down.

I trust our military far more than I do the police.

To more directly answer the questions you asked. No I did not serve. I was not drafted and did not volunteer. I flunked the physical when I went for it at age 18 I think it was and never got called. I had one son the oldest to serve in the Army for almost ten years before he became so disgusted with it he left rather than complete the years to retirement as he had intended. I my father and neither grandfather served. I did have a couple of uncles who did long long ago.

I do not have any of those flags or ribbons on my vehicles.

I do support our troops and wish them the best in their battles but I feel they are being misused grossly and losing their lives for a battle that has no value for this country but only for the super rich who gain from war. I no more believe that this is a war on terror than I do that pigs can fly. The terrorists are in charge in DC and waging war daily both on our troops over seas and against us here at home.

I believe they are winnowing out those that will not follow orders and determining who will do as told and the day will come that those who won't will be treated same as the rest of us here. Yes I have a very negative view of what's happening and what's to come here in this country. I wish it were different and I wish I could see it differently but I don't.

[nomosendero]

Some will & some won't, not cut & dried at all.

[FourBee]

An assault on our citizenry by the military and banning our privelege to own guns is a frightful thought for Patriotic Americans.  

It could happen if , say, there comes a 'natural catastrophe in the U.S.A., or when IRAN starts a nuclear war that may cause devastation in our own land.

[briarpatch]

I would like for someone to name one nation, country, Tribe, etc. throughout history that had its warriors and its police refuse to stomp the living guts out of its population when ordered.  Not just stomp them but inflict the most curel punisment and torchure you can imagine. The police will be the spear tip in the assault.
This is known by every policitcal whore in this nation and others. They just simply have to look over their cup of coffee and say, do it.

[squirrellluck]

As ex-military all I will say is it is good training. And there are still many true patriots serving now that won't turn on the American people. As was stated before, boot camp drills lawfull orders into your head. But more importantly we were taught to defend America. When you take the oath it is for real and for life. I believe in the crunch they will stand for us. Not all but many.And yes many have left after losing faith in our leaders