Author Topic: Oath Keepers: Orders We Will Not Obey (Read 5055 times)

Cabin4 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 16, 2009, 03:52:59 PM »

All they need are a good percentage of the troops to go along with it and it will be enough. They don’t need them all. A few good show-downs like another Waco and or Ruby Ridge plastered all over the air waves and masses of gun owners will surrender. The media will play a big role in making sure the message of our coup leaders in Washington gets out to the masses of people. They will demonize gun owners and paint us as domestic combative and terrorists. They will call us "Tim McVeigh’s", Far Right Wingers, Skin Heads, White Supremacists. Anything to demonize those that won’t conform and surrender their guns. The press and main stream media will slob up the lies like hungry hogs at the feeding trough.

Those were Americans that marched on Waco & Ruby Ridge and they did it licking their chops for a fight. I don’t remember any stories about refusal to attack. So much for an oath. Get ready for Ruby Ridge & Waco X a Million.

nomosendero · « **Reply #31 on:** March 16, 2009, 03:53:32 PM »

Quote from: briarpatch on March 16, 2009, 03:35:35 PM

I would like for someone to name one nation, country, Tribe, etc. throughout history that had its warriors and its police refuse to stomp the living guts out of its population when ordered. Not just stomp them but inflict the most curel punisment and torchure you can imagine. The police will be the spear tip in the assault.
This is known by every policitcal whore in this nation and others. They just simply have to look over their cup of coffee and say, do it.

It appears you have no kids in the Military. I don't mind folks think many would do so, but saying all will is plain false.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #32 on:** March 16, 2009, 04:47:19 PM »

For the sake of this country and the future for my children, I hope TeamNelson is correct!
I'm a cynical old fart however and I fear for our future!

What I think will happen is that Some Officers and leaders will not go along with anything like that.
And we will be tossed into a civil war more deadly than the one our country faced before. Not sure where the battle lines will be hoping it aint North and South. Maybe West and East against heartland ?

briarpatch · « **Reply #33 on:** March 16, 2009, 05:11:35 PM »

nomosendero, We all like to wish and think the best but History says a very few will not.
Kent State?

Graybeard · « **Reply #34 on:** March 16, 2009, 05:38:59 PM »

Right that was military at Kent State, guardsmen or reservist I seem to recall but military trained just the same. They not only fired on Americans but UNARMED ones at that.

I have not and will not say ALL cuz I do not believe that. I have no doubt some honorable men and women perhaps will not do it. My primary hope lies with old heads the officers and older NCOs who will refuse to issue the orders and will in fact go out and take the good ones with them.

Still as much as I'd like to believe there are more of the good than those less good I just honestly believe more, far more in fact will do as told and not question the orders one whit. I hope I'm wrong, I pray I'm wrong but in today's society that's the way I see it.

In fact I think there is a conscious effort being made already to identify who will and who might not. I think those the KNOW will are going to be told who might not and be told to eliminate them when the time comes. The job will likely be made all the easier for them by those higher up the chain of command who are loyal to the kabal. They will make sure those most likely to not go along will be kinda massed somewhere unarmed when the time comes. It will be a slaughter if they don't figure it out in time.

Maybe we'll know about it and maybe we won't. They'll likely have some good story to tell of how all those good soldiers were killed. My guess is they'll either have it done overseas or will do it here and blame it publicly on gun owners as a ruse to take guns from us and those left will then be all the more eager to take us out.

I wish I could be as believing and trusting as some of you but it's just not in me. I have a basic distrust of big government.

bilmac · « **Reply #35 on:** March 16, 2009, 06:25:38 PM »

If the time comes I'm sure there will be the same kind of agonizing as went on when the military split for the civil war. What a decision to have to make. The way the two sides have treated the military will have a lot of influence on the thinkers.

nw_hunter · « **Reply #36 on:** March 16, 2009, 08:33:20 PM »

Quote from: bilmac on March 16, 2009, 06:25:38 PM

If the time comes I'm sure there will be the same kind of agonizing as went on when the military split for the civil war. What a decision to have to make. The way the two sides have treated the military will have a lot of influence on the thinkers.

I think it's more like.......WHEN the time comes!

When I was a young and foolish ground pounder in the US Army, I was told I could whip any enemy soldier on the planet, and believed it! We were trained (brainwashed) to follow orders in a heartbeat.

Most, I think will follow the orders of their leaders without question.
Some of the older (Mostly NCO's) may not! As well as some officers.

"Bad times are a commin"

I know your heart's in the right place Chaplain, but I fear GB is right.

no guns here · « **Reply #37 on:** March 16, 2009, 10:06:36 PM »

Yeah, but I know lots of senior NCO's and senior officers who have voiced their opinions that they would NOT follow certain orders. They feel that the Constitution and "all enemies foreign and domestic" are the guiding principles. They and we have been taught that you must not follow illegal orders. Blindly following orders whether legal or illegal is what leads to big problems down the road. All soldiers, airmen, marines and sailors are taught to follow orders but we are also taught to evaluate orders AND situations for correctness and legality. That being said... I CAN see a bunch of young troops being used for "security" or something like that. Then some dumbass will take a shot and then the troops will respond just like they did during their last three or four deployments and they'll wipe the dumbass out. Then the fed's will spin it all out of control. I would hope that the officers and NCO's charged with carrying out illegal search and seizure missions or illegal detentions or occupations on US soil would refuse such orders. I will...

ngh

bilmac · « **Reply #38 on:** March 17, 2009, 01:04:31 AM »

There may well be a time that a portion of the military will try to subdue the country, but it can't be done, this country is too vast. We were almost not up to the job in Iraq, and it is the size of California. We came home with our tail between our legs from Viet Nam, because the other side just would not give up. The Russians couldn't subdue the Afganis. Who is going to sign the surrender papers for the folks who have made declarations on this site?

beerbelly · « **Reply #39 on:** March 17, 2009, 01:58:59 AM »

You folks seem to forget that the government has used the army against the people before and the army followed orders! When the ww 1 veterans marched on Washington the government ordered Mc Author and his troops to shoot them down and the DID! I the 1950's Dwight D. Eisenhower ordered the Airborne into Little Rock AK. and they went. Here in Alabama the government federalized the National Guard against the will o0f the people and they followed orders! If you think they will not now you are fooling yourself.
Beerbelly

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #40 on:** March 17, 2009, 02:03:06 AM »

there was a little conflict in TN. where the Govt. troops were on the loosing end . the door can swing both ways

Oldshooter · « **Reply #41 on:** March 17, 2009, 02:19:23 AM »

Quote

On 28 July, 1932, Attorney General Mitchell ordered the police evacuation of the Bonus Army veterans, who resisted; the police shot at them, and killed two. When told of the killings, President Hoover ordered the U.S. Army to effect the evacuation of the Bonus Army from Washington, D.C.

At 4:45 p.m., commanded by Gen. Douglas MacArthur, the 12th Infantry Regiment, Fort Howard, Maryland, and the 3rd Cavalry Regiment, supported by six battle tanks commanded by Maj. George S. Patton, Fort Myer, Virginia, formed in Pennsylvania Avenue while thousands of Civil Service employees left work to line the street and watch the U.S. Army attack its own veterans. The Bonus Marchers, believing the display was in their honour, cheered the troops until Maj. Patton charged the cavalry against them — an action which prompted the Civil Service employee spectators to yell, "Shame! Shame!"

After the cavalry charge, infantry, with fixed bayonets and adamsite gas, entered the Bonus Army camps, evicting veterans, families, and camp followers. The veterans fled across the Anacostia River, to their largest camp; President Hoover ordered the Army assault stopped, however, Gen. MacArthur—feeling this free-speech exercise was a Communist attempt at overthrowing the U.S. Government—ignored the President and ordered a new attack. Hundreds of veterans were injured, several were killed — including William Hushka and Eric Carlson; a veteran's wife miscarried; and many other veterans were hurt.

Check out some of the names involved in that holocaust!

Might bring a little light to this subject, a little eye opener for all of us Patton and MacArthur fans!

FourBee · « **Reply #42 on:** March 17, 2009, 03:13:46 AM »

Very good posts, bilmac and beerbelly:

Quote

posted by: Graybeard
In fact I think there is a conscious effort being made already to identify who will and who might not.

Absolutely; For in the still of the night, these patriotic commanders who are deemed a danger to the government will mysteriously disappear.

Heather · « **Reply #43 on:** March 17, 2009, 06:07:16 AM »

I am curious to the number of members of the oath keepers. I doubt their numbers are vast enough to make a difference.

Heather

nw_hunter · « **Reply #44 on:** March 17, 2009, 10:07:51 AM »

Quote from: Heather on March 17, 2009, 06:07:16 AM

I am curious to the number of members of the oath keepers. I doubt their numbers are vast enough to make a difference.

Heather

Think I'll join and add one more to their numbers! Brad

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #45 on:** March 17, 2009, 11:40:31 AM »

Quote from: Heather on March 17, 2009, 06:07:16 AM

I am curious to the number of members of the oath keepers. I doubt their numbers are vast enough to make a difference.

Heather

That is the whole point of the web site, Make more pepole aware of whats going on. More peaple now are better informed than they where in some of the other incedents mention, This is really a diffrent fight.

nomosendero · « **Reply #46 on:** March 17, 2009, 01:14:18 PM »

Quote from: briarpatch on March 16, 2009, 05:11:35 PM

nomosendero, We all like to wish and think the best but History says a very few will not.
Kent State?

I don't disagree with that, just making a distinction here & pointing out to state all is not accurate, I know many who will be an exception to the rule.

jimster · « **Reply #47 on:** March 17, 2009, 04:14:03 PM »

All through history we have seen pieces of governments break off and join the people in various amounts during revolutions, nobody knows what the numbers would be, but there would be some numbers like all revolutions. I don't know how much of a difference it would make don't think anyone does.
But you can bet there would be intense fighting in some States. I bet any police and military that broke off, including ex military and police could cause a lot of damage providing people with some smart alternatives as opposed to doing something dumb, like turn your house into the Alamo. With a little leadership, and some calm heads, they could at least make it worth your while to die, which is going to happen anyway if it gets that bad. Let's face it, when the Feds decide to do something they are already looking at people like us that have bought hundreds of firearms over the years, they know who we are right now. If you decide to just give up and hand things over, they will still come into our homes and ransack the place knowing who we are and figuring we would not give them all up(they would be correct)...you'd probably get killed in that process. I still think the government is smart enough to disarm us in other ways, it's pretty chancy calling for all out war on gun owners, they might just think there is a chance they would lose that one(and they might lose in a State or two). I bet they find another way, and do it a lot slower. I'm just guessing though...guess we won't know until something happpens. Let's hope the voting booth works instead.

myronman3 · « **Reply #48 on:** March 18, 2009, 04:36:47 AM »

Quote

I trust our military far more than I do the police.

there you have it folks; g.b. has hit the nail on the head once again. the police are the ones you need to fear. the soldier is from the people, and fights for the people. the thing that keeps a soldier going is knowing what he is fighting for. i knew alot of guys, and i can say that i dont think a one of them would turn on their countrymen. i think you guys are selling our guys short.
as far as the police, they have an entirely different mindset. "to protect and serve" was out the window years ago. when police agencies started using military training and tactics is about the time it went to pot.
when i made the decision to leave the military, the sargent major had a mandatory breakfast with us. he had a heart to heart with us, and alot of what he said really stood out. one of the things he said was that once a soldier, always a soldier, and that although we were joining the civilian population, we were still soldiers. and the time would come where the country would need us, and we were to never forget the oath we took.
go talk to an old vet. no matter how frail the outside is, look in their eye, there is always a soldier in there somewhere. and the great thing is, there is always new vets joining our ranks. so while you might say the military is hardened, the fact is as these new vets e.t.s. and come back to us as civilians our ranks are hardened as well.

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #49 on:** March 18, 2009, 05:13:34 AM »

for my money the best bet is any who will take this oath should..
the liberals need see this turn into a swell of opposition to any acts against gun rights...it gets them an us thinking .. a good thing ,,im thinking. :)slim

rex6666 · « **Reply #50 on:** March 18, 2009, 05:50:32 AM »

I hope if that day comes, some of these young soldiers stop and think
"if i am doing this to these American families some one is doing it to mine"
they all families here and maybe some of the old heads can make them understand.

bilmac · « **Reply #51 on:** March 18, 2009, 06:18:43 AM »

I look at this from a different perspective than many I guess. I can't see our local cops co-operating with the Feds either. Especially our sheriff is an elected official and as downhome and conservative as I am. I know several deputys and they are the same. I want to sit down at coffee with one of them some time and see if I can draw him out on what the mood of the department is. Our local city cops are pretty much the same.

The mood in Wyoming is very anti Fed right now. there has always been a pretty strong undercurrent, but receintly the Feds have angered almost all of us in the way they are handling the wolf reintroduction. They routinely break promises and ride roughshod over us.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #52 on:** March 18, 2009, 06:32:30 AM »

Quote

They routinely break promises and ride roughshod over us.

Surely you dont mean our Government!

squirrellluck · « **Reply #53 on:** March 18, 2009, 02:02:23 PM »

With what they want to do with our veterans care I believe you may see less support for the fed. gov. from our military.

ironglow · « **Reply #54 on:** March 18, 2009, 03:49:28 PM »

It would seem that Teamnelson & noguns, being current military may have a better handle on the mood of the military. As a veteran, I tend to agree with them.
BP seems to think our troops are a bloodthirsty bunch that are eager to stomp & kill..that opinion sounds embarrasingly far left wing and anti-military. BP; you seem to speak authoritatively..which branch did you serve with and when ?

Some pointed out a time when the military did attack, such as the bonus army. That was nearly a century ago and the military has changed much..same as everything else over the last century !
The kent Stae thing was NG, and the troops fired out opf fear. Besides, that was not like attacking Americans in their homes as in Waco or Ruby Ridge. The incident at Kent State was riot control of a unruly, rioting rabble. Instead of making a big deal over that, the inquest should have asked just two questions: 1) Was the mob ordered to halt ? 2) Did the rioters ignore the command to halt ?
If the answer was "no" to both questions, the guard was at fault; if the answer was "yes" to both..the students are responsible !

The ugly thing at Waco..the military vehicles used there were not operated by Army personnel..but by law enforcement.. I have heard that the vehicles were on loan to the Clinton admin by Gen Wesley Clark at Fort Hood. You know that Gen clark..that Clinton sycophant who has been involved in politics for about a decade..
Perhaps some Law enforcement will go along with a bummer admin..I can't forget that cop who stuck an M16 in the face of little Elian Gonzales !

I have a grandson who is a Spec Ops Marine and I have met many of his fellow Marines. Yes; the far left wing tries to picture our military as some kind of primatives..but that is just their way of trying to excuse their cowardly unwillingness to serve (like a cat, digging in the neighbor's yard..trying to cover his own %$#&^*.
THe Marines I know are intelligent, and probably the most professional troops we have ever had (includes all branches)..they know they swore allegiance to the U.S. Constitution..not some tin pot fuehrer..

Oldshooter · « **Reply #55 on:** March 18, 2009, 04:32:53 PM »

Quote

The ugly thing at Waco..the military vehicles used there were not operated by Army personnel..but by law enforcement.. I have heard that the vehicles were on loan to the Clinton admin by Gen Wesley Clark at Fort Hood. You know that Gen clark..that Clinton sycophant who has been involved in politics for about a decade..
Perhaps some Law enforcement will go along with a bummer admin..I can't forget that cop who stuck an M16 in the face of little Elian Gonzales !

Interesting information about Gen Clark...... hmmmm !

Yes I remember the Elian Gonzales fiasco! Where were the feel good liberals when that went down, They sent a boy that risked his life and lost his mother back to Cuba to be with his father that probably never gave a flip about that boy before that incident!

I keep wanting to believe that we have nothing to fear from our guys We will have to see.
I'll trust in God

Questor · « **Reply #56 on:** March 18, 2009, 04:38:00 PM »

GB said it best. The vast majority of those stupid young minds, especially officers, will walk all over you if they have an opportunity.

Tn Jim · « **Reply #57 on:** March 18, 2009, 04:41:18 PM »

I have to agree with GB. Our own goberment will destroy us, just as in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union before us. They will use whatever tools they have at their disposal to accomplish their total power grab. The slaughter and rights violations will be off the charts. I try not to imagine it, but I see the tale tell signs in our society everyday. Our country has figured out they can live off the government tit and not do anything to earn it. The media feeds them Socialist crap all day and they eat it up. Patriotism is dying at a record rate with no end in sight. It's being set up now and it's coming sooner than we think.

briarpatch · « **Reply #58 on:** March 18, 2009, 04:43:47 PM »

It makes no difference IG if I served in the military or not. I have read many history books and we have a birds eye view of the past many thousand years. I see what any man would see, if he looked. Even the Bible gives an account of such doings. When herrod ordered the killing of all babys he simply ordered it. I do not know but I would think that many of the soldiers also had a family it is not recorded but if they did were they spared or did other soldiers handle it. It does not matter but the order was carried out.
I served in the US ARMY 1969 to 1972

beerbelly · « **Reply #59 on:** March 19, 2009, 02:54:47 AM »

Many, many years ago, when I was an 18 year old Marine, Had my CO told me you were an enemy of the country and to shoot you . You would be dead! IF they are ordered to attack you they will! And better dam well believe it.
Beerbelly