Author Topic: Oath Keepers: Orders We Will Not Obey (Read 5109 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #60 on:** March 19, 2009, 04:24:43 AM »

Our Govt. is us ! Maybe not what you or I voted for but as a whole it is what the American people voted in .

Tn Jim · « **Reply #61 on:** March 19, 2009, 06:25:26 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on March 19, 2009, 04:24:43 AM

Our Govt. is us ! Maybe not what you or I voted for but as a whole it is what the American people voted in .

But that doesn't make it right or in our best interest. This administration will wipe it's collective arse on the Constitution whenever it is convenient to it's purpose, regardless of how it got there. And, make no mistake, it's purpose is complete control. At any and all costs.

no guns here · « **Reply #62 on:** March 19, 2009, 08:47:03 AM »

I have to say that I would never attack peaceful, law-abiding Americans. I would refuse the orders. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. No NCO, Officer or politician has the authority to order me to violate any part of that document.

I will say however, that I WOULD fire on anyone who I felt had met the ROE for deadly force. If I were presented in some situation with riot control or mob control I definitely would not fire unless attacked or threatened with deadly force AND the ROE authorized such action. Sorry but I'm not going home in a body bag just to because some scum decide to riot and attack me or my troops. If the ROE said that we could respond to deadly force with deadly force and someone started shooting or threatening to, then I'd put a three round burst in their center of mass AFSAP. But I wouldn't accept an order to fire into a crowd that wasn't presenting me with a life-threatening situation.

Don't forget... we have 18-20 year old Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines on the front lines of national policy on a daily basis. As a literal fact, each of these "kids" is being put in a situation almost daily that can and will have a serious impact on our national and international relations up to and including instigating general warfare. Are there mistakes being made? You better damn well bet there are. However, for the vast majority of the situations, these kids are responding correctly to their training, morals and values. Yes, they are trained and expected to follow orders. However, they are also trained to avoid collateral damage, to respect and follow the ROE, to respect and protect non-combatants and to use less than lethal means to de-escalate if at all possible. These kids are NOT automatons bent on kicking in doors and killing babies. I KNOW our officers and SNCO's are smarter and better educated that those of any other military in history. Most SNCO's have a minimum of an associates degree, many have bachelors degrees and a goodly number have Masters, I've known at least two with Doctoral degrees. Education at that level gives a perspective on operations, orders, effects etc that NO other military has ever had. It easier to get an uneducated groups of folks to do something "wrong" than to convince well educated, well trained and well led troops to do the same thing. They will not all BLINDLY follow orders. We all know about the "posse comitatus" act and are taught that we can't be deployed in the US to act as law enforcement. We will not all blindly attack fellow Americans. Would we fight in a civil war, yep, but we wouldn't all fight on the "union" side. A goodly portion would decide that the "secessionists" (or whatever you want to call them) were worthy of their support. Just like the last time...

later,
ngh

Cabin4 · « **Reply #63 on:** March 19, 2009, 09:03:09 AM »

Your right, our government is not inherently evil or our enemy. Its kinda workin out that way thou. Its the people running the government that are in fact evil. Obamanation and his crew are taking evil to a whole new level.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #64 on:** March 19, 2009, 09:23:45 AM »

Quote

I would never attack peaceful, law-abiding Americans.

I really don't think anyone here thinks that the(our) military will come marching down the streets kicking in doors and killing babies just cause an officer says do it! or even the president or whomever says do it.

What I(we) fear is that they are gonna say we are coming for your weapons and anyone not complying are

NOT peaceful, law-abiding Americans.

And then you will be told to uphold the law and put down the insurrection!

Where does that put you?

Someone correct me if I am wrong !

no guns here · « **Reply #65 on:** March 19, 2009, 10:11:25 AM »

Hell, that's what I fear too. That would make us make decisions. Whether to stand behind an illegal law that directly contravenes the Constitution of the United States of America OR whether to stand behind said Constitution? I could never support such a law. The problem for me would come IF the Constitution were amended in such a manner as to make POF's illegal. Then I wouldn't have much of a legal leg to stand on if I were to challenge such an order. Would I then support such search and seizures? I would have to say no, I wouldn't. I believe that the 2nd Amendment was put in place to offer the American people a manner of last recourse against an overly oppressive government. Less service members would feel the same as I in that situation than would side against a "law".

I know folks who would most likely support the "government" in either situation. I also know people who would not support the "government" in either situation. Yep, they are all in the military right now. In fact, both are in the Army. IN FACT they each work for me in my section. There is a large contingent of WASP types in the military who feel as I do. I definitely think a majority of the minority segment DO NOT respect the 2nd Amendment on philosphical grounds. Some support it " 'cause I got some guns and and ain't nobody takin' dem away".

Unfortunately, there will always be a contingent that says "I was just following orders". Hopefully those numbers will be small. Hopefully training, thinking and common sense will prevail for most of them.

I sincerely hope that I am never put in such a situation. I sincerely hope that I am never put in a situation that would force me to choose between subjugation to un-Constitutional laws and rulers or fighting against my country-men. But it's something we have to think about in this day and age, which means it will most likely come to pass. I just hope if it does come to pass, I am young enough to be relevant and make a difference. Of course there are a lot of 60 year old folks out there who can shoot a rifle just fine. They might not be able to march or ruck anymore, or dig a fighting position but they can SHOOT.

ngh

ngh

Oldshooter · « **Reply #66 on:** March 19, 2009, 11:22:41 AM »

Quote

They might not be able to march or ruck anymore, or dig a fighting position but they can SHOOT.

When the lead starts flyin' You just sit back and watch me dig!

All kidding aside, Guys like you give me hope that even if it gets real ugly here that there will be some, maybe even enough, that will stand and deliver the promise that the founding fathers left for us in the Constitution.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #67 on:** March 19, 2009, 01:10:47 PM »

Tn jim , my point was a bunch of "us" voted for them . When "they" get what "they" deserve "we" will be getting it along with "them"

teamnelson · « **Reply #68 on:** March 19, 2009, 02:41:32 PM »

Quote from: Questor on March 18, 2009, 04:38:00 PM

GB said it best. The vast majority of those stupid young minds, especially officers, will walk all over you if they have an opportunity.

Of course I probably don't have the full picture like you; I've only served in 3 branches of service since 1987 under 5 different presidents, as both enlisted and an officer. I and thousands like me have been wounded for you ... I've held the bodies of nearly 40 of those "stupid young minds," including two LtColonels, who died so citizens like you can make statements like that. Not once do I remember any of them walking over anyone for that privilege.

Come on out and join us, there's room at the front for you. I promise we will die for you if needs be.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #69 on:** March 19, 2009, 05:52:15 PM »

OUCH!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #70 on:** March 20, 2009, 02:23:59 AM »

Seems some have forgot that the military of today is not draft . those in it are there to make our country safe and free because they want to . They want to protect America and what it stands for . That 25% non US citizen are working / paying in advance to be Americans .
There is little doubt that they will have to search their soul if they are ever ordered to attack Americans . Hope we raised them right !

Sourdough · « **Reply #71 on:** March 20, 2009, 10:55:14 AM »

Here in Alaska we have five large military installations, and several smaller ones. We have a group of about 600 people here in Fairbanks alone that is getting the word out to those military folks about this very thing. Letters are being written, e-mails are being sent, and the word is being put out on radio talk shows here in Fairbanks. The message being sent is that they (the military) are there to defend the Constitution of the United States of America, not to obey the unlawful orders of an out of control administration.

The word is that the people making contact are getting very favorable responses back from the people they are talking to.

kix · « **Reply #72 on:** March 20, 2009, 01:50:06 PM »

I am afraid,because they are paid, they will follow orders. Anyone remember Kent State? Kix

teamnelson · « **Reply #73 on:** March 20, 2009, 04:50:39 PM »

Quote from: kix on March 20, 2009, 01:50:06 PM

I am afraid,because they are paid, they will follow orders. Anyone remember Kent State? Kix

Yes, the Ohio National Guard. Not regular active duty or even reserve troops. But poorly trained inexperienced troops acting on the governor's orders. Your militia. Not dedicated professionals with a full time commitment. Since then your NG folks have been given access to same training as active and many have done long tours in Iraq.

Are you serious about the pay? You truly don't know reality.

bilmac · « **Reply #74 on:** March 20, 2009, 05:22:15 PM »

The military today has some of the very best our country has to offer. Think of the pro football player who got killed in Afganistan. The man gave up big money to go to war for his country. How many other young guys are out there for the same reason, but you don't hear about them because they didn't happen to die, or they aren't football players. I talk to almost every youngster that I meet that I have a clue is in the military, sometimes I will even ask a young fellow if he has a military bearing and a short haircut. It's a personal campaign of mine to let these youngsters know that we appreciate their patriotism.

When I talk to them I am hugely impressed by their intelligence, and common sense. If there is any hope for this country it will be that these young people may even be self sacrificing enough to serve as political leaders. The kids from the Gulf War should be old enough to start showing up in politics now.

No, I can't believe that the kind of kids that I talk to will sell out wholesale to a bad government. I believe the opposite, that military units will decline unlawful orders wholesale, there may be some bad units, but I think the majority are too good citizens to not know the difference between good and evil.

jimster · « **Reply #75 on:** March 20, 2009, 05:33:12 PM »

I can't speak for any young solders except my own son who is in the NG, he would fight next to us, we have had that conversation and I believe him, and so would his best friend who I went to watch graduate as a cav scout in the NG. They both think like we do. Not sure about any others or how many, but if these two young solders have these converstaions and think about such things, many more must be thinking things too. I don't think we would be as alone as some people think.

Jim

bilmac · « **Reply #76 on:** March 20, 2009, 05:44:29 PM »

Team Nelson I almost applaud the Ohio Guard. You think there is division in the country now. The skumbags at Kent State finally pushed good folks too far in my estimation. I guess you could say that the guardsmen broke under the kind of abuse these left wing rioters were handing out. A good many of the rioters on campus that day weren't students, but almost professional rioters who went from hot spot to hot spot trying their darndest to provoke just what happened.

Funny thing is though, that when bullets finally flew, all the left wing skumbags got real scared real fast, and the "movement" pretty much died. Today we see the same radical left showing up again, I mean even the very same people, as Professors in Colleges and buddies of the Democrat political leaders.

One thing about this struggle, the left are demonstrated cowards, we have stout hearted men on our side.

DakotaElkSlayer · « **Reply #77 on:** March 20, 2009, 10:04:03 PM »

Thanks for the link! Good stuff to remind people what the Bill of Rights really says... I wouldn't worry too much about the Second Ammendment right now, if I were you. Like the folks on the Oath Keepers say, they will violate other Amendments, like the Fourth, in order to get to our guns. Ya, I am talking WAAAY in the future before they go for all of our guns... Guns are just too big to tackle at this time. The "smaller" Amendments will get chipped away first and by the time they get to the Second, no one else will be around to support the gun owners. When it comes to the Constitution, we need to have an ALL OR NOTHING attitude.

Don't believe me, here are some quotes from here, on the "warrantless wiretaps" and I wouldn't label the posters "liberal" by any stretch of the imagination. But since, this didn't have anything to do with abortion or guns, they didn't seem to mind as long as it made them FEEL SAFE.

...Sure is a bad move by the NSA...interfering with the terrorists plans to destroy us..

I wonder if all those crying now about the terrorist's privacy..were so incensed when old Hitlary was caught with over 400 FBI (secret) files on members of congress...?

It isn't fair, or right that terrorists should have their electronic communications monitored. How in the heck are they supposed to get their jobs done. I think it is just common sense that NSA should have a cadre of judges at their becon call, should they need one at a moments notice.

I trust that Americans who are worried sick about their phone calls being bugged, will keep their voices down when they are talking on their cell-phones in restaurants, stores, and everywhere else.

We know that the Libs could care less about the FBI Clintonian files.
When I see people like Biden , Kennedy , Kali Pelosi , Boxer ,
Feinstein , Hillary & these other Socialist Democraps say they are worried about my Civil Liberties, it gives me a lot of laughs. These are afterall the same people who want to take my guns, property at will &
anything else they choose.
They are however, very worried about the right of terrorists.

After learning the details and history I've come to the conclusion that the main reason this is just now a major concern is so the HUGE success in Iraq doesn't get the headlines it deserves.

Put me on the list with those who are much more worried about what terrorists want to do to this country than I am about whether someone listens into a phone call, or reads an e-mail.

All the rights in the world are worth nothing if you have no viable nation to practice them in ..

We have terrorists trying to destroy the United States...and you it seems, are much more concerned in your last post with fighting our elected leaders than taking the fight to the enemy..

beerbelly · « **Reply #78 on:** March 21, 2009, 02:08:21 AM »

The way I read it no guns here just told you, they change the law I will come for you and your guns! Any of you who think they will not follow orders ,are just kidding youself.
Beerbelly

ironglow · « **Reply #79 on:** March 21, 2009, 05:20:03 AM »

TM;
Thanks for that quote from Cicero, it is as cogent..perhaps even more so than when Cicero penned it !

On the second quote...while Bush may not be entirely innocent, the stature and credibility of his accuser (Leahy, VT) doesn't help the credibility of the statement..when we know that Leahy will vote for any bill Obama may want to destroy our nation.

Teamnelson beat me to it... I don't know where Questor gets his info, but our military ..even the young ones ..are not "simple minds".
Just for his info, and it has been proven over the last few years..the young people in our military are mentally well ahead of their civilian counterparts.

Briarpatch; Thanks for your service..my youngest brother served during the same time frame..all stateside. He turned to dislike the military and I believe it was because he served during a very demoralized period for our troops, with the abuse they suffered at the hands (and mouths) of the media, street rabble and draft dodgers. Of course, he had already been brainwashed by a state college and his advanced degrees only have made him into a hopeless liberal. I am not going by my military experience alone, but by people I know who are serving today. My grandson and many I have met in his unit, young people from my church, including a young man in the First Ranger Battalion..and a young lady (Capt.) who just left the Air Force for civilian employment, having served in the well recognized job of "rocket scientist" (air to air types).

Do not think that you are alone in having studied history..many on this forum have also. I am often called upon to teach historical subjects..including Biblical/church history. While such things as Herod's "slaughter of the innocents" is historical; I honestly wouldn't expect our troops to literally murder babies under 2 years of age as a day's work. We can leave that task to liberals and their "women's health" clinics!
History from your/my term of service doesn't even count! We served during the "draft years"..at that time the draft pulled in the VERY BRIGHT AND THE VERY STUPID..along with perhaps 40% that were very disgruntled and bitter for being called at all.

One big mistake liberals of today often make is to assume that those who "volunteer" to serve are somehow mentally deficient. That only points out the mental deficiency of the person who believes such tripe! Many liberals have no higher belief than in themselves and are continually seeking the best for #1... They simply cannot fathom the mind of a person who acts altruistically.
I have even heard some of them say the death of a soldier is not so bad as the death of a civilian..because the soldier "volunteered" for it. ...Well, Duh ! ...What a stupid notion! Do they believe the same way about a fireman or cop that dies in the line of duty ? Probably!
..A tip for anyone who may believe that lie;
Soldiers, sailors, Airmen & Marines do not volunteer to die..they volunteered to fight the FANATICS who volunteer to die...and they're doing it for you and me! ...,Get it !

myronman3 · « **Reply #80 on:** March 21, 2009, 05:24:34 AM »

great post ironglow.

ironglow · « **Reply #81 on:** March 21, 2009, 07:32:53 AM »

TM;
I don't categorically dismiss everything that Leahy (or any other arch-liberal for that matter) says, but i can go by his past performance as a general indicator..not good.. Plus, being in solid with Vermont voters is not a very good recommendation any more than in our state of NY. Both consistantly vote daffy, as indicated by choices like Howard Deane, Bernie (commie?) Sanders and Leahy (VT), along with Spitzer, Schumer and Clinton (NY) .

Yes; the potential you spoke of for abuse of citizens (detention centers etc) is probably in place ...but Obama/Osama will need the brownshirts to effect their plan...let's keep our eyes open..

Your BTW statement about the atrocities of various wars does come up a bit one-sided when I hoped for a bit of balance. You mentioned some several incidents; some legitimate..some bogus.
Noticeably absent were the 9/11 destruction of 3,000 people , the stupidcide car, bus, plane & train bombings. The beheading of reporters, the murder of teenage girls on the way to school, the murder of Christians just BECAUSE they are Christians...a nutsy father that strangles his teenaged daughters or a husband who beheads his wife (mother of his children) and then plays an impromptu game of soccer with her head...let's go for a little balance..OK?

War was deemed extinct 2,000 years ago? Haven't heard of that, and it is certain the Muslims haven't.

ironglow · « **Reply #82 on:** March 21, 2009, 12:38:05 PM »

The so called "patriot act" is a straw man liberals use in an attempt to excoriate the Bush admin. I have not heard of one person, other tha suspected terrorists that were even inconvenienced by it. Even then, the panty-wadding part that seems to grab libs is the provision where our intelligence agencies can monitor conversations b etween overseas terrorists and their possible domestic counterparts. It sure woul;d be tragic if some E4 listening somewhere caught a key phrase or word and prevented the death of 5,000..50,000 or 500,000...
As far as Bush (who had his own problems), to compare hs administration to this Abomi-nation one must really beg the question. For the "patriot act"..which not all see as evil, the string of freedom-repressive ideas the Obama administration has put forth, dwarfs any and all measures the bush gang put through in 8 years....And Obama/Osama has only been at it less than 60 days.

As far as your 4th paragraph...

??

FWiedner · « **Reply #83 on:** March 22, 2009, 12:02:26 PM »

Sorry.

No person who takes a government paycheck should ever be trusted. For one they'll always consider themselves as something better than average because they are a part of the system, a valuable cog in the machine, they "are the law", and for two they'd rather see you dead than give up that security.

It's my belief that a lot of folks will go to their maker at the hands of their sons and brothers.

Our government is an parasitic infection that is feeeding off of us and killing us at the same time.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #84 on:** March 22, 2009, 02:55:06 PM »

Quote from: FWiedner on March 22, 2009, 12:02:26 PM

Sorry.

No person who takes a government paycheck should ever be trusted. For one they'll always consider themselves as something better than average because they are a part of the system, a valuable cog in the machine, they "are the law", and for two they'd rather see you dead than give up that security.

It's my belief that a lot of folks will go to their maker at the hands of their sons and brothers.

Our government is an parasitic infection that is feeeding off of us and killing us at the same time.

WHOA there dude! I have been drawing a goverment paycheck for most of my life and I've been shot at for you! So maybe you should reconsider that statement just a little.

BTW this thread has gone totally off topic, The point isn't if when or what will happen. The point is a bunch of military people believe they may be ordered to to this and will refuse to follow unlawful orders. They are trying to train and get the word out to all the armed forces and educate them of this and making sure the citizens know it too. So stop bickering like a bunch of senators or congressmen and help get the word out to our young troops and friends/family that the powers that be have no right to rape our constituion.

nomosendero · « **Reply #85 on:** March 22, 2009, 03:16:56 PM »

Well Bob, that is the point as you have stated. I have discussed it with my family & others in the military.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #86 on:** March 22, 2009, 03:25:19 PM »

So do I and when I see a Guardsman or sailor or airman dosen't matter which branch, at wally world or Mc Ds I ask them if they have a minute to talk, I tell them what I think and ask them to pass it along. Spreading the word may be the only way to get thru this all.

BTW I'd go oversea to fight again in a minute But they say I am to old and broken up to do that, So I am gonna try and keep the fires lit here at home so those young guys and girls got something here when they get back.

bilmac · « **Reply #87 on:** March 22, 2009, 03:42:37 PM »

I'm with you Badnews, I tried twice to get back in the guard after 9/11. Even though I had been in the real Army and the Nat Guard, they just wouldn't let me play. If I had gone it would have meant maybe one less of the youngsters would have had to leave a wife and job behind. But then again, maybe the country needs the kind of men that are shaped by that experience.

teamnelson · « **Reply #88 on:** March 22, 2009, 05:09:33 PM »

Quote from: FWiedner on March 22, 2009, 12:02:26 PM

Sorry.

No person who takes a government paycheck should ever be trusted. For one they'll always consider themselves as something better than average because they are a part of the system, a valuable cog in the machine, they "are the law", and for two they'd rather see you dead than give up that security.

It's my belief that a lot of folks will go to their maker at the hands of their sons and brothers.

Our government is an parasitic infection that is feeeding off of us and killing us at the same time.

So who was paying your check when you were in hostage rescue? Are you saying you are not to be trusted "ever"? Is your family aware of the threat you pose to their lives?

ironglow · « **Reply #89 on:** March 23, 2009, 12:29:31 AM »

Badnews, Teamnelson;
Good points, I know too many current military too well to believe that statement. I guess it comes down to personal values.."If I can be bought off, I assume everybody else can be"..on the other hand, if "I'm not so likely to be bought off..I won't expect EVERYBODY else will be 'easy pickings' either".
I have found that to be true in other life instances. When I find a man that distrusts virtually everybody..I keep a wary eye upon HIM.
The statement read "No person who takes a government paycheck should EVER be trusted". I suppose that means all us veterans, since we all once got our pay from Uncle.