Author Topic: MILITARY BRASS  (Read 1332 times)

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Offline jtaylor1960

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MILITARY BRASS
« on: March 16, 2009, 11:35:46 AM »
 I was just on the Top Brass site checking on once fired military brass.They just posted a memo saying that according to new goverment regulations all fired brass must be destroyed and can't be sold to the public in useable condition.I find this very alarming.This includes 223,308 and 50 bmg.If anyone has heard anything on this matter I would like to hear it.

Offline Skunk

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2009, 11:46:26 AM »
It's all over the internet jtaylor. Do a google search for: DOD Military Brass and just see what you come up with. Looks like it is for real.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline gypsyman

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2009, 11:48:33 AM »
Yep, came in on an ''excutive order'' in the last couple days. Clinton did the same thing with ammo cans and gun parts back in the mid '90's. They ended up in the shredder and sold off for scrap. Another way of squeezing in gun control. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline Skunk

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 11:54:32 AM »
Yep, and by mutilating it, it's value reduces by about 80% for resale as scrap and no doubt the taxpayers will have to pay for the the additional costs of the mutilation.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline Gohon

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 12:10:21 PM »
No it was not an executive order.  Here are all the executive orders signed todate by Obama.   

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/obama-subjects.html
 
Here is the policy concerning small caliber brass..........what some apparently can't comprehend is what it means by CONUS and outside CONUS.  Stop feeding the paranoia monkeys until something concrete is published. 

Quote
DRMS-I 4160.14
Section 3 - Special Processing
Cartridge Cases (Fired Brass) - Expended
Definition/Description
Ammunition components consisting of cartridge and shell casings are subject to the
International Traffic In Arms Regulations set forth in subchapter M of 22 Code of Federal
Regulations (22 CFR 120.1. et.seq). Once expended, they are processed as fired brass scrap,
with precautions to avoid improper release of unexpended cases.
Policy References/Authority
DOD 4160.21-M and DOD 4160.21-M-1.
Unique Processing Information/How to Manage
Receiving: The ETID/DTID must include the appropriate DEMIL code or clear-text statement for each
receipt. The turn-in must contain certification that the residue is inert. Two signatures, a certifier and a
verifier are required. Opening sealed/banded containers invalidates the inert certification. DRMOs will
inspect what is readily visible (open boxes and drums) to verify the absence of contaminants, such as
live rounds. No other level of inspection is required.
Not authorized for receipt from DLA Depot Recycling Control Points (RCPs).
NOTE:
Warehousing/Storage: Storage will be accomplished in a properly assigned DEMIL Code “A” or “B”
scrap pile.
Reutilization/Transfers/Donations: GSA regional offices are authorized to approve transfer to SASPs,
for donation to state and local governments, surplus expended cartridge cases (under .50 caliber) for
reloading of the cartridges.
DEMIL: All expended small arms cartridge cases (50 caliber and under) are assigned DEMIL Code “E.”
Expended shotgun shell cases are assigned DEMIL Code “A.” Expended artillery cases are assigned
DEMIL Code “B.”
Sales: Sales in CONUS are authorized for casings 50 caliber and under (to satisfy local/reloading
market/demand only). The appropriate sales method will be determined based on location, commodity
condition, etc. as well as any current, unique sales/scrap processing initiatives that may be in place. End
Use Certificates are required for these sales.

Abandonment/Destruction: Used if specifically directed on a case-by-case basis.
Property Accounting: DEMIL performed code “9” is authorized for casings assigned DEMIL Code “E”
but no DEMIL is required. No additional unique property accounting required.
The provisions of this publication apply to all non-A-76 sites and Government Personnel at A-76 sites. This
publication may be mandatory or advisory to the Service Provider, as stipulated in the Performance Work
Statement.
Section 3 - Special Processing S3-79 February 2009

Offline Skunk

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 12:54:30 PM »
We'll see Gohon, and I do hope you're right.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline Gohon

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 01:07:37 PM »
Skunk, I'm not saying there is absolutely nothing to this but so far nothing has shown up except internet gossip.  Personally I would think the NRA would be all over this in a heart beat but they haven't said a word.  Even if it were true I don't know what the impact would be.  I don't know of any major ammunition manufactures that use once fired military brass for their ammo sales or reloading brass sells.  I think we as hunters and shooters have a lot more things to worry about than this. 

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 01:15:53 PM »
Evidently Top Brass thinks it is serious. Here is a link to their site; read for yourself.

http://www.scharch.com/
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Offline Skunk

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 01:22:07 PM »
See, I thought the same thing at first Gohon, that according to DEMIL Code B, the mutilated brass only applied to exported brass that was being sold as scrap. But some folks on another forum had found out from personally calling the Gov. liquidation place and finding out that that it did indeed now include all brass whether exported or not that the brass had to be mutilated. And it wasn't an executive order from BO, rather it was a decision made by the DOD or one of the other the other government Departments that is responsible for getting rid of surplus. Those folks also apparently contacted the NRA and the NRA was was said to be aware of the situation was looking into it. So I don't know what to think about the whole thing. Probably best to wait until we find something more definite, like you mentioned.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline Skunk

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 01:23:52 PM »
Evidently Top Brass thinks it is serious. Here is a link to their site; read for yourself.

http://www.scharch.com/

Thanks for the extra info LaOtto, I was typing while you were posting that.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline Gohon

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 02:10:32 PM »
Sure is some strange stuff going on here.  Now,  I'm reading and being told all this just surfaced in the last few days.  However go to the link given for Top Brass (the originators of the repeated claim) and it is the same information being repeated here and the same form letter to a representative........... however scroll to the bottom of the page and it says last updated 02-23-09.  Now go to the site provided for Government Liquidation and they are listing brass for sale with the words "Mutilation not Required".   Now if Scharch posted the information 22 days ago from emails recieved prior to that from Government Liquidations, wouldn't one expect Government Liquidations site to be updated by now to reflect such a change?   It's these kind of things that makes me hold back before jumping on the wagon. 

If DOD put out a directive changing the classification for small arms brass there should be a document number available.  Anyone seen it or have been able to find it?  I can't find it but as said, I guess we shall see. 

Offline Skunk

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 02:17:31 PM »
If DOD put out a directive changing the classification for small arms brass there should be a document number available.  Anyone seen it or have been able to find it?  I can't find it but as said, I guess we shall see.

That's exactly what folks on other forums are asking for. I've not seen anything yet.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline Gohon

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2009, 07:28:44 PM »
The more I look into this the more it seems to be coming clear. Seems some companies such as Top Brass and Georgia-Arms have been buying once fired brass as scrap metal which under Government Liquidations required mutilation if indeed was scrap metal. Why would companies want to do this....... for one thing it was cheap as bought by the pound. Second thing is they didn't have to fill out all those certificates declaring end user use to keep those once fired brass casings from falling into enemy hands, and lastly they made a higher profit on resales. Since we are in a state of war and national security is being monitored it seems Government Liquidation is closing a loop hole that irritating some companies because they can see their profits get slimmer.

Does this mean the discontinued sale of once fired brass to the public or to reloading companies. No it does not because it is still being sold as it always has been and was intended to be at DRMO's as DRMS/GL SALES. Yes end user certificates have to be signed and yes lots are bid on instead of simply being weighed and sold as scrap but it is there. Scrap Venture is not DRMS and as stated before a few ate ticked their profits may take a hit because they maybe now have to follow proper procedures to get their once fired brass.

Why would Government Liquidation be enforcing this rule now? Here is an explination from another site and poster I'm sure everyone can understand.

"GL does manage some of the scrap venture sales.

HOWEVER, the rules for Scrap Venture sales ARE NOT THE SAME AS THOSE FOR REGULAR DRMS/GL SALES.

Google Scrap Venture, read what it is, over and over until you grasp how that program is NOT the same as a regular auction.

Now, if you need an explanation of why the rules are not the same, here it is- on a Scrap Venture sale contract, the buyer bids for the right to purchase all scrap of that type, at that location, for a set price and period. Lets say I bid on a SV contract for irony brass and bronze. I win at $1.02 a pound- so for the next 6 months, all irony brass and bronze that location produces AS SCRAP I get for $1.02 a pound.

Note, however, that most small arms brass does NOT get sold like this.

Now, for those not familiar with the demil procedures and requirements who have not figured out why they treat brass sales differently between the two types, I will explain. When you buy brass, you have to fill out an End Use Certificate stating you are a legal buyer, you will not export, etc etc because brass is indeed a demil B item. However, if brass gets dumped into a scrap bin with all sorts of other scrap metal, the buyer can get it out of that scrap bin later and they have not filled out an EUC for that brass. Therefore, to prevent fired brass from being sold without a proper EUC, they are stating that brass sold ON A SCRAP VENTURE CONTRACT must be demilled, because otherwise a demil B item would be sold without a proper EUC".

BTW, this is supposedly the letter/memo from Government Liquidations that kicked this thing off.

Quote
/March 12, 2009

Larry Haynie
Georgia Arms
PO Box 238
Villa Rica, GA 30180

Re: Event 7084-6200:

Dear Larry Haynie,

Effective immediately DOD Surplus, LLC, will be implementing new requirements
for mutilation of fired shell casings. The new DRMS requirement calls for DOD
Surplus personnel to witness the mutilation of the property and sign the
Certificate of Destruction.  Mutilation of the property can be done at the
DRMO, if permitted by the Government, or it may be mutilated at a site chosen
by the buyer. Mutilation means that the property will be destroyed to the
extent prevents its reuse or reconstruction. DOD Surplus personnel will
determine when property has been sufficiently mutilated to meet the
requirements of the Government.

If you do not agree with the new conditions of your spot sale, please sign the
appropriate box provided below stating that you do not agree to the new terms
and would like to cancel your purchase effective immediately. If you do agree
to the new terms please sign in the appropriate box provided below to
acknowledge your understanding and agreement with the new requirements relating
to your purchase. Fax the signed document back to (480) 367-1450, emailed
responses are not acceptable.

Please respond to this request no later than close of business Monday, March
16th, 2009.

Sincerely,

Government Liquidation.

Offline gypsyman

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 03:10:17 AM »
Well, you can believe what you want. Do all ''executive orders'', make it to paper. Funny how we've been at war for the last 5 years, and this is just now happening. How long has ''the teflon don'' been in office. Didn't happen under Bush. Wonder how many Chicago businessmen went swimming in Lake Michigan and there wasn't any paperwork, except for the newspaper the fish was wrapped in when it showed up. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline Gohon

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 04:24:45 AM »
Quote
Do all ''executive orders'', make it to paper

Yes........

Offline Skunk

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 05:54:23 PM »
According to Georgia Arms website, the "DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09."

http://georgia-arms.com/

Dear Loyal Customers,

Thanks to your voice, DOD has rescinded the order to mutilate all spent cases as of 4:30 pm on 3/17/09. We appreciate the time and effort that you expended, together we all made a difference. We will be posting the email we received from DOD as well as any additional information within the next 12-16 hours. Thanks so much and lets get to work!!! Georgia Arms
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline Gohon

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2009, 07:09:22 AM »
Here is the email they received.  As suspected, the mutalation of brass was a outside CONUS thing connected with national security.

I am sorry you hadn’t been informed –

Word came down that all shells 50 caliber or smaller CAN still be purchased without the mutilation requirement as long as kept in the US.

(As it was in limbo, I did not sent your EUC to Battle Creek until today, also why I have not contacted you for payment until today.)

 

Thanks!

Arana K. Wolin
Document Verification Supervisor
Government Liquidation, LLC
DOD Surplus, LLC
15051 N Kierland Blvd. #300
Scottsdale, AZ  85254

Offline Skunk

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2009, 07:33:59 AM »
Good stuff, ey Gohon. I'm going to now rest a little more easily about keeping the .223 and .308 running this year.
Mike

"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" - Frank Loesser

Offline wncchester

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2009, 04:17:20 AM »
"No it was not an executive order.  Here are all the executive orders signed todate by Obama."

You are right, it wasn't an excecutive order.  Instead, it's an example of how bureautcrats "imporve" on ideas their bosses have in mind.  That's a common thing in government and is much more often the case than any executive plan limits, as such. 

Gov. surplus is sold as surplus, not even in this instance as reloadable brass at a higher value.  It brings a higher bid price because our bidders know they can get a better return.  If they couldn't they wouldn't bid and it would be sold to those who WILL melt it down.  The gov. knows this too.

Interesting thing is the gov. wants us to believe it was "only for over seas sales, not CONUS."  Nothing in the gov's memos to the various purchasing agents HERE said that.  In fact, it said the reverse.  It's been dropped, for now, only because the BO team has more on their messy plates than they and their propoganda wing, aka the "mainstream media", can manipulate.   

Anyone wishing to see a ray of hope that BO  isn't, in the long term, directly behind this will be disappointed when he gets time to put the screws to us in more serious ways.  We gonna see some "moderate" restrictions on what we can own and some serious "tobacco", "alcohol" and "fuel" type high taxes on new guns, scopes, ammo and components.  Such taxes are NOT intented to raise gov. income, per se, but to change the peons actions by pricing things out of their reach; those aren't called "sin" taxes for nothing. 

When our masters think they need to maneuver us they love to use cost - taxes - to do it. That has become "the (gov) American way!"   We know, or should know, that Democrats/Liberals/Socialists want us without firearms, of any sort, not for "crime" or "the children", but so they can more easily control us.  But, law won't do it, they don;t want a Constitutional fight.  And they wouldn't even want to make an outright prohibition, their rich supporters want to keep their guns as much as we do.  So, the gov will have to install a program that acomplishes both goals, geet ours, leave the rich alone.  They know what that plan must be, and that's taxes.  Pay the taxes, keep your guns.  Otherwise, give them up.  What must come first is a "common sense gun law", just for a few taxes and some form of registration.  The more serious taxes will come later, after the registration.

They also know that, at first, the registration must be near painless.  It will start that way.  Only after they get a master list of (law abiding) gun owners and what they own can they start seriously raising taxes on our personally owned guns - an annual federal AND state "property tax" - until we must give them up. 

Taxes won't have to be fought over in court.  The SCOTOS has repeatedly ruled the gov. can tax as they see fit.  Taxes are the only way they can they prevent us peon's owning guns while leaving a way for the rich and powerful (who massively support the Dems) to retain theirs.  Neat solution to the Dems/liberals "problem" of us common folk having guns, huh?  And it's coming too, our new and envigorated masters WILL do it, or at least as far as they can take it for now, make no hopeful mistake about it. 

They would like to do it all fast but that's politically impossible if done suddenly and they know it.  It will probably require a couple more presidential elections but socialists are paitent when they have to be.  They know all they are likely to get soon are the high taxes on the purchase of new guns and ammo side of things and some form of the registration steps of the total program.  The gov loonie (is that redundant?) who jumped the gun, so to speak, on stopping the sell of surplus brass knows where the BO/Dem admin is headed. 

Or am I wrong, is that not what the top level Democrats seek?  Just watch it unfold, tell me over some 6-10 years from now. 
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline OR-E-Gun Bill

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Re: MILITARY BRASS
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2009, 04:44:46 AM »
"They also know that, at first, the registration must be near painless.  It will start that way.  Only after they get a master list of (law abiding) gun owners and what they own can they start seriously raising taxes on our personally owned guns - an annual federal AND state "property tax" - until we must give them up." by Wncchester

I've seen it happen myself in Illinois (the registration part). The former Illinois Senator and his right hand goon were both quite fond of the Illlinois FOID system that was created way back in 1968. Simple to enact there in 1968 and could become a national registration for all firearms owners.

Unless specifically exempted by statute, any Illinois resident who acquires or possesses firearms or firearm ammunition within the State must have in their possession a valid Firearm Owner's Identification (FOID) card issued in his or her name.

http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm