Author Topic: The "Freedom Arms test shooting sheet" thread (Read 3219 times)

Wiking · « **on:** March 17, 2009, 12:05:02 PM »

Over the years I've seen numerous Freedom Arms revolvers auctioned off at Gunbroker. I'm always excited to see if the test sheet is shown and how it looks like. I find it cool that you upon purchase recieve a nice quality piece of paper with a 5 shot group of your gun. So I thought it could be fun to see how your sheets look like so we can, yet again, agree that we own the world's most accurate revolvers.

I'll start with mine:

Model 83, 4 3/4 Premier Grade .357 Magnum.

suba · « **Reply #1 on:** March 17, 2009, 12:57:53 PM »

I picked up my 44 at Cabela's last year for $1399. I was in the right place at the right time. I don't think it was even fired.

MarkH · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2009, 01:05:27 PM »

Nah - they all look the same. What is cool is that with a little work and some load development, you can duplicate it on your own two feet.

suba · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2009, 01:21:05 PM »

Quote from: MarkH on March 17, 2009, 01:05:27 PM

What is cool is that with a little work and some load development, you can duplicate it on your own two feet.

That's very true. I don't even think you have to spend a lot of time with development. My gun shoots anything well. I set up a small piece of 2x4 with the narrow side facing me at 25 to 40 yards. I don't think I've failed yet to hit it free hand. It's hard to believe a 4 3/4" barrel can be so accurate.

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2009, 02:52:31 AM »

After a couple years of playing with my model 97, I finally let disapointment convence me to sell it. I admit that at first I was satisfied and even excited with the gun after having an occational good group, but over time it simply proved inconsistent for me. My Rugers which cost about $1000 less, simply beat the FA in every department. On that note, I can't say the FA is the "finest" although the fit and finish of the gun was always admireable, for me the purpose of a gun is to shoot accurately.

suba · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2009, 03:38:21 AM »

Lee,

I'm sorry your gun was a disappointment for you. I'm curious. Had you considered sending it back to FA for evaluation. Maybe they could have found something. I'm curious what cal, and do you handload. Also curious whether lead or copper, and what kind of groups were you getting. I presume you are an experienced shooter. Why do you think the gun wouldn't shoot.

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2009, 03:28:31 PM »

It was a Model 97 Premier grade 45 Colt caliber with mircata grips. I had it go through their "custom shop" with several options, including a trigger job, a crowned barrel, a fluted cylinder, and even my last name engraved on the backstrap area of the grip. I had EVERY intension on keeping this gun and never selling it (hence my last name being engraved). My intent was to pass it onto my son when he was of age. I ordered it just before he was born. He is going to be 3 years old at the end of this month. I wanted the best for us to share. I will still have an "heirloom" though, but I will just have to have my last name put on one of them for him to have WHEN he is of age.

I played with the gun a lot...including lead and jacketted bullets both...of various weights and styles. I tried several powders and dozens of loads...with hundreds of rounds...and although I had times that things looked promising...as I was even excited at times, in the end...the gun was inconsistent for me and shot groups twice the size of both of my Rugers 45 Colts. I could even outshoot them with my 2" SP101 357 and my wife's ladysmith 357/38 (but that is another story). The FA shot about the same size groups I get from my Kimber 45 ACP...which the load I chose for my ACP isn't the most accurate load, but it is a VERY RELIABLE load. However, because I would occationally get a nice group I even thought the problem may have been just the stainless fixed sights having a "diffficult site picture" so I tried blackening them out with marker...but that didn't have any effect...and the groups generally were still twice the size of my Ruger guns of same caliber. I have to have faith that if I do my part the gun will do its part. I would have given up on the gun sooner if I didn't have so much invested in it AND if the fit and finish wasn't so impressive, but man this gun locked up like a vice and I really was impressed with their craftsmanship. I give them props for their tight tollerances...but the gun had me scratching my head. I am not mad or upset, but just exhausted with it.

I contacted FA and they were willing to look it over, but I never sent it back to them for a few reasons. I understand it was MY CHOICE not to send it back to them. In all fairness to FA and Bob Baker...I don't hold any grudges against FA...because they very well may have been able to identify the problem (if there even was one). The reasons I chose not to send it back included...

1st, I must say I would have thought the gun would have been looked over well before it was ever sent to me...especially being it was a $1700 gun that had gone through their custom shop.

2nd, with the new "administration" of this country...who knows when there will be a ban on shipping guns. I don't want my gun to sit in some shop for 6 months, only to find out by the time they get around to looking at it some "Ban on the shipment of firearms" exists and I can't get my $1700 gun back.

3rd, Even then, there is no "guarantee" they would have found anything wrong...since I would imagine they looked the gun over before they sent it out the first time...and I had concern that it would come back just the same as it was and that it would be "within specs." Again, the fit and finish was very nice and the gun have great tollerances...although I never plugged the barrel to check for a tight spot. That would be where I would guess the source of this firearms problem.

4th I also had some wonder on their choice of rotation/inch in their rifling in their barrel, but??? I don't know enough on this to be sure.

So...I traded it for something else I really wanted...and only lost $200...actually less than that probably being I would have had to pay to get the gun to FA and then again to get it back. So, out of frustration, disapointment, and exhaustion I decided to call it a day in dealing with that hurdle...and moved onto something else. You only live once, and we must pick our battles. This to me, being exhausted with the gun, was not worth dealing with anymore. I am disapointed about it to be honest, but not too bad. Everything else with my firearms I have been able to work out, so I can't complain...and I have everything I need...so I chose to focus my energy on other things. I hope that makes sense.

suba · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2009, 04:49:18 PM »

WOW......

Thank you. I hadn't expected such a story. I am sorry it didn't work out. It sounds like the gun should have been a real shooter. They must have given you the test target. My guess is it was one small ragged hole. No need to analyze everything now because the gun is gone, but I feel there were real reasons the gun didn't shoot for you.

As a last resort I would have most certainly sent it back. FA would have carefully looked at the gun, and if nothing obvious was found I'm sure they would have shot loads known for accuracy and have a good look. In fact even if they found and corrected a problem I would bet they would still have shot loads known to be accurate to double check. If I would have ordered a gun like yours I would have played the last card. Had you done that I'm certain you would still have it.

Thanks for sharing your story. I know it's a painful thing to remember.....

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #8 on:** March 21, 2009, 06:24:06 PM »

Disapointing...yes. Painful...no. I came out ok. A friend of mine sold his model 83 after not being able to find a load for it that met his expectations...but he never told me this until after I sold my FA gun and told him why. I asked him why he didn't tell me and he said because most people love the FA, so he kept it to himself. I would be willing to try another, but after this...I would not buy one again unless I shot it first. I think they have a slower twist in their barrel and I have some doubts over this...but again, I don't know what the problem was for me/my gun. Some women look good. Some women have a great personality. Some women can cook. And then some are the total package. I want the total package.

Although, I am curious as the the range these test targets are shot from. Distance is an important part of accuracy...as we all know.

Wiking · « **Reply #9 on:** March 23, 2009, 07:40:24 AM »

Sad story that one. A shame you didn't ship it back and found out what the problem was.

The first year and a half I had my .357 I used mostly 125gr and 158gr bullets. Mainly because I liked the muzzleflash from all that powder

. But I could'nt get the accuracy that I knew the gun was capable of.

So I gave Bob a call and talked to him for about 30 minutes, or well... he talked, I listened

. He said their revolvers are made for heavy bullets at least 158gr but better yet with 180gr. So I bought some 180gr Hornady XTP and some H110. The previous loads were made from a Hornady Lock 'N' Load progressive press. So I thought that this time I'd put some love into it. So I went back to basics using virgin brass and weighing each load by hand. The 5 shot group below is shot at 25 yards from a rest. I think the holes speak for themselves.

Thanks Bob...

suba · « **Reply #10 on:** March 23, 2009, 08:23:02 AM »

Quote

However, because I would occationally get a nice group I even thought the problem may have been just the stainless fixed sights having a "diffficult site picture" so I tried blackening them out with marker...but that didn't have any effect...and the groups generally were still twice the size of my Ruger guns of same caliber.

This statement might hold the key. Now, I don't pretend to know a lot about anything, but when I was young ( when I had perfect vision ) I could shoot with the very best. If I wanted to strive for the best possible accuracy in my FA's, I would without question not choose a fixed sight. I feel an adjustable sight gives a better sight picture, and gives me other blade options if I want. I've always thought fixes sights were more rugged, but were meant for shooting where the nth degree of accuracy was not required. Again, I could be totally wrong.

There could have been 101 reasons the gun didn't shoot for you. Maybe the grips didn't fit right, or maybe you don't have the depth of reloading experience some have ( just looking for answers ) I generally have no trouble getting anything to shoot well. Good brass, the right bullet and powder with a decent shooting ( and cleaning ) technique will go a long ways to make small groups.

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #11 on:** March 24, 2009, 06:04:34 PM »

One of my Rugers has fixed sights and it is a TACK DRIVER for sure...one of my best, but it is a blue gun, not stainless...meaning the sights are not shiny. Of course, the FA wasn't shiny either when I blacked it out...so I really don't think that was a problem. The grip was comfortable for me. I am confident in saying that wasn't the problem either. I would guess the barrel had a tight spot, but I don't know for sure. A friend of mine also had a similar problem, so I don't really know. But, I know before I ever buy another one I would have to shoot it first.

Powders tested included some Universal, but not a lot...

But I did try a lot of... H110, 4427, and 2400.

Bullets included SOME, but not many light loads with 230 gr truncated cone (TC) lead hard cast...

BUT I did try a lot of the...250 gr Hornady XTP, Speer 260, and 270 gr Keith hard cast (Keith shot with brass trimmed to 1.25 OAL...to measure 1.61 OAL loaded ammo). The speer shot the best, but it was also the lightest load...and one that specs would have put pressures low enough that reliability was questionable although it did always go "bang" and was the best shooter I tried. The Hornady XTP didn't shoot consistent for me, even when loaded with "accuracy test loads" according to FA/Bob. The Keith varied. Some times it would shoot ok, and some times not.

The XTPs and the light loads with the TC bullet shot the worst. The Keiths were 2nd. The Speer was the best...but still not as good as what I got from the Rugers, which to date have like everything I have fed them. Perhaps I was unlucky with the FA...and perhaps I was lucky with the Rugers.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2009, 11:21:14 AM »

I dunno, maybe it's just me.....but if I had a $1,700 gun that didn't shoot consistently better than my $500 gun....and I could just pick up the phone and call the owner of the company who makes the $1,700 gun.....and if he couldn't help me over the phone...he would more than likely ask for the gun back to check it out, I think I'd make that phone call.

It seems like an easy thing to do. Dial 11 numbers and have a ten to fifteen minuet chat. Especially considering the hours spent at the reloading bench and the range trying to figure out why it's doing what it's doing.

Buying the expertise is one of the reasons you spend $1,700 on this gun.

But then, that's just me.

Dave

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2009, 01:13:07 PM »

I would too. That is why I stated...

"I contacted FA and they were willing to look it over, but I never sent it back to them for a few reasons. I understand it was MY CHOICE not to send it back to them. In all fairness to FA and Bob Baker...I don't hold any grudges against FA...because they very well may have been able to identify the problem (if there even was one). The reasons I chose not to send it back included..."

If you read the post, you would have seen that. Since you bring it up, I will add...that was another reason I chose not to send the gun back. Bob was VERY NICE, but none of his "tips" helped...so honestly, I lost a little faith in their methods. Again, none of this was done without careful consideration and testing. Again, I had the gun for about 3 years...and this isn't the only FA that I know of that has been difficult to tune/load consistently. Is it bad luck? Perhaps...but I know I am not the only one that has found out the hard way that a $500-600 Ruger straight out of the box and stock might beat a $1700 FA with trigger job and other "extra." I wish that wasn't the case, but it is what happened for ME. Just an honest report.

STILL... I GIVE THEM HUGE PROPS for the impression the gun's finish made on me. VERY NICE lock up like a vault...and I am impressed with their work. I just place shootability (realiable consistent accuracy) over looks is all. I say this again because I have no desire to report a one sided opinion. I am reporting both the good and the bad with my experience...and since this thread was about group size, I thought it was relative.

Also again...does anyone know the distance of the paper that comes from the factory "test shots?" If it is 10 yards, then...honestly, shouldn't you expect a tight group? I have seen 2" snubbies put 5 shots in an inch or so at a mere 10 yards...but, if it is at 50 yards...that would be very impressive.

suba · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2009, 01:52:15 PM »

Lee, The test shots are 25 yards. My first thought about your gun was, what did the test shots look like. Could you get that emailed to you from the owner and post it here. I've been wondering about the test shots all along.

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #15 on:** March 25, 2009, 03:23:13 PM »

I hate to say that I don't know who the new owner is...but I don't. I traded it in at a friends gun shop who was going to a gunshow. He sold it for me at the show. I told him what I wanted out of it (a mini14 target w/ synthetic stock PLUS a Burris SIGNATURE series 3-12 x 44 scope. He got what he wanted and I got what I wanted. As far as I knoww, everyone was happy. I gave the information of rounds as well as about 2 dozen rounds that I had lef that did shoot to my friend with what I learned...and that was the gun shot good with the Speer 260 gr bullet loaded over 20 gr of H110...and that load was accurate, but it was the only load I have found so far to be so...and although it is a published Speer load, by comparing it to other H110 loads of similar weight bullets and by chronograph measurements the load was on the light side for H110 powder. All this info was provided to the guy that sold it to me. I don't know if he gave the info to the buyer, but I certainly hope so...as that was the only load that shot good for me...and I tested a considerable amount IMO...far more than a normally do.

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #16 on:** March 25, 2009, 03:24:17 PM »

oops...I forgot to say, thanks for the info on the distance of the test shots.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #17 on:** March 25, 2009, 04:03:26 PM »

Lee.....but you didn't send it back. It would take less time to box it up and send it back than it would to type the post you did.

So, I'm perplexed as to why you would cast a doubt on a quality gun while not sending it back. I've purchased new Performance Center Smith's that I've sent back...they have fixed, and all is right with the world.

I dunno....maybe it's just me.

Dave

suba · « **Reply #18 on:** March 25, 2009, 04:13:03 PM »

This story intrigues me too. With all due respect, I'm thinking there is more to this story. Had I ordered such a gun and it didn't shoot to my expectations it would have most certainly gone back, and the sooner the better. You must remember the test shots. I'll bet it was one ragged hole. I doubt FA would let out that gun had it done less.

I'm perplexed too. Something doesn't add up for me, but it's all academic at this point. The gun is already gone.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #19 on:** March 26, 2009, 08:20:24 AM »

Quote from: suba on March 25, 2009, 04:13:03 PM

I'm perplexed too. Something doesn't add up for me,

That is my point.

Dave

suba · « **Reply #20 on:** March 26, 2009, 09:06:57 AM »

I just shot these 6 rounds@25 yds offhand out of my 454 with the Colt cylinder. I put a fiber optic blade on the gun and wanted to see where it shot. The first three shots are at the upper left. Notice how the rounds are walking to the right because I'm turning the windage screw between shots. I was aiming for the nail hole you see just above the tape. There was a small whitecap nailed in place.

I took out the nail, and put on the tape, then cranked the windage again aiming for the center, and took a shot. What I'm looking for is the bullet to predictably move with the adjustments. Cranking the windage again my #2 shot was called low. Turning the screw once more and #3 put me where I wanted to be. Not too bad considering my eyes aren't what they used to be. I could tweak the elevation but would like to see the POI at 50-75 yards first. Load data. Federal cases. Federal #155 primers. Cast performance 325Gr no GC over 16 gr 4227. OAL. 1.660

paul105 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 26, 2009, 09:55:38 AM »

I couldn't even see the nail hole at 25 yds. How do you like the fiber optic front?

Paul

suba · « **Reply #22 on:** March 26, 2009, 10:21:00 AM »

Paul, I couldn't see a nail hole at 25 yards if my life depended on it. I nailed a small white button to the board, and had a hard time seeing that. I've got a green fiber and really like it. There's quite a bit of light on either side though, but it's easy to get it centered well enough. I've got an orange on my 44, but prefer the green.

btw, those shots were at 25 paces. Not quite 25 yards....

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2009, 04:10:55 PM »

The story is just that...a depiction of events as to what I found with the gun. I am certain that I am not the first (as there are others here even on this forum with identical experiences) nor will I be the last that found a $500 Ruger outshoot a $1700 FA.

So be it.

The difference is I took the time to explain what happened. Why did I do this? Simple...because someone ASKED ME TO.

Don't read into it more than what it is. There is no need to. Perhaps it was not a normal "specimen." I don't know. I just knew I was tired of dealing with it.

paul105 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2009, 04:32:25 PM »

Quote from: Lee Robinson on March 26, 2009, 04:10:55 PM

I don't know. I just knew I was tired of dealing with it.

Lee, I know just how your feel -- I've had/have several like that (Not Freedom Arms). You just get to the point where you throw up your hands and say "I've had enough". Life is too short. I've definitely thrown in the towel on stuff, and in fact have a couple that I'm about ready to deal away (with full disclosure to the buyer). There's always someone out there that thinks they can figure it out (no offense intentened to any previous poster) and some of them have them time and the experience to do just that. More power to them.

FWIW,

Paul

suba · « **Reply #25 on:** March 26, 2009, 05:03:56 PM »

Lee, I for one appreciate the time you have taken to enlighten us all. I don't get frustrated if I can't shoot a particular gun well. What makes me crazy is if I don't have confidence in the gun. By that I mean if I can't predict where that round is going relative to the target ( not looking for the smallest groups ) then I have no faith in the weapon. Having said that, I personally need to fully comprehend what I must do, in order for me to extract that faith from a particular gun. If after I have tried in good faith giving the gun every chance to convince me that it is predictable and repeatable and if it does not win my confidence....I would also walk away and find a gun that I could work with, BUT I believe all of this is simply physics. There is cause and effect. If a gun doesn't shoot well there are rational reasons. Whether we want to figure out what those reasons are is another matter entirely.

Thank you again for your generous time.

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #26 on:** March 26, 2009, 06:35:49 PM »

I completely agree with the last two comments...and thank you for your words.

Again, I would like to say the craftsmanship seemed surperb. I don't want to mislead anyone. I am not trying to bash FA. They seem like a fine company...and Bob was very generous with his time and was willing to look at the gun. As far as I know, it would have only cost me shipping and time...and he (or his techs) may have been able to solve the problem if I had sent it back to him...but as was just stated by the last two posters...1. I had thrown in the towl because I felt enough of my time and money had already been spent and exhausted on the item...and I felt life is too short for me to continue throwing more time and money (considerable money even reloading) down range trying hundreds of rounds of testing ammo and considerable time dealing with the problem...as I had other 45 Colts that worked very well for me...and 2. I had personally lost some faith in the FA...not that it was "bad" because it wasn't bad...it just wasn't consistently good for me, which my other guns are (at least the ones I have kept). I can turn one of the Rugers into an airloom for my son.

I should have noted, the times I got "promising results" were with loads fired at only 10-12 yards. At further distances (as I wanted to develop a load for handgun hunting out to 50 yards), I didn't get the groups I was hoping for.

I also should have noted that FA is probably one of the only gun companies or gunsmith like outfits that has EVER delivered an item on time (actually early). Every other gunsmith operation I have dealt with has taken considerably longer than their "estimate." That was not the case with FA. They delivered before they promised and I was very happy with the company in every way besides the accuracy issues I was having. I should have mentioned that before as well given the general nature of this thread as some may assume I am trying to attack them and that certainly isn't the case. The company seems very stand up to me.

But, in closing, as this will likely be my last post on this topic...I would like to close with two old sayings...

1. One old saying (not exactly sure how it goes, but something like this)..."Don't throw good money (money not waisted) away trying to save money already lost (spent)." I saw no need to continue throwing money in ammo away to continue trying to find a load. Yes, perhaps I would have continued to test the $1700 gun if time and ammo were free...but I had already spent hundreds reloading rounds and waisted that money firing rounds down range...and I didn't see any reason to continue this same pattern.

2. Another old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." For me this didn't mean "don't fix the FA," it meant something else...My goal was not to have a "FA" per say...but was to have the "best." My goal included the idea of having a nice 45 colt that I could shoot in both a revolver and a rifle. I have other 45 colts that work great, so my goal was accomplished ("not broke") with these other guns, so why worry about the one that doesn't...when instead I can just sell it/trade it for something else I wanted? Seemed logical enough to me. I like the 45 colt, I like it a lot, but it isn't the only round I shoot. Even then, I have 2 other 45 colt single action revolvers and 1 marlin 45 colt that all like the same load...actually, they like several loads. That is what I wanted from the 45 Colt. So, mission accomplished even if not with the FA. So be it. My goal "wasn't broke." I still got what I wanted. Life goes on and is indeed too short for ME to deal with the FA any longer being I accomplished my goal.

Oh, and I agree...it is physics. (BTW, I do teach sciences. Not physics mind you, but I understand it enough to know it is physics). Well said.

Last comment...everyone here I am relatively sure has sold a firearm before...disapointed in it or not...we have all gotten rid of an occational firearm. In my life, to date, I can count the number I have sold on one hand. I was reluctant to sell the FA as I wanted the FA to work, but at the same time I also was not reluctant because I was ready to move on. And...now I can honestly say for ME....I have moved onto greener pastures for ME. Maybe the next FA I put my hands on will drive tacts. In time, perhaps we will see. I certainly wish FA and Bob the best, but still I wanted to share my experiences. I think I should be entitled to do that.

pab1 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 27, 2009, 07:33:25 AM »

Quote from: Lee Robinson on March 25, 2009, 01:13:07 PM

Is it bad luck? Perhaps...but I know I am not the only one that has found out the hard way that a $500-600 Ruger straight out of the box and stock might beat a $1700 FA with trigger job and other "extra." I wish that wasn't the case, but it is what happened for ME. Just an honest report.

My Ruger SBH is the most accurate revolver I own. This target was 4 shots with my SBH from the bench at 75 yards. The only mods on this gun was a trigger job by SSK and their TSOB mount. I have a FA in .454 Casull and have been very happy with it, but I have not found a load that will touch my SBHs accuracy. Both guns wear 2X Burris scopes on TSOB mounts, so the playing field is even. If I ever had to let one of them go, it would not be the Ruger.

paul105 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 27, 2009, 08:03:38 AM »

pab1,

Is that group representative of what that SBH will do on demand? If so, that's mighty fine shooting and one fine firearm!

TIA,

Paul

pab1 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 27, 2009, 07:11:42 PM »

Thanks Paul! With this load, it will shoot better than I am capable of. I don't shoot from the bench much, but this gun has always made me look good whether from the bench or offhand. The day I shot this group, I was attempting to find a jacketed bullet this gun would like. After shooting several varieties of factory ammo with around 4" 75 yard groups, I decided to see if it was the ammo or the shooter that was the problem. I fired 4 rounds of my favorite handload and got my answer.