Author Topic: Cemetary Cannon  (Read 1982 times)

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Offline tapwater

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Cemetary Cannon
« on: March 20, 2009, 05:42:46 AM »
   I'm sure it's a decorative piece, as I can't find a vent hole, though it could be filled with years of paint.

   OAL---6'
   Muzzle---6" OD
   Bore---3 5/8"

  





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Offline BoomLover

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2009, 06:30:50 AM »
Date of 1910 engraved in the marble, and pretty nice marble work... trunnion straps look pretty fake, just to cover the resting slots...however, it looks like it has been there quite a while, with all the discolored run off on the marble. If the date was when this was erected, did they make fake/decorative cannon in 1910? Maybe check with Post 657 D.A.R., for more info? Paint scratched off the casabel, almost looks like fiberglass..  BoomLover
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Offline tapwater

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2009, 06:48:51 AM »
   Yes, Boom, the trunnion straps are not much more than sheet metal. Though I'm familiar with the D.A.R., I must confess that I don't have a clue what the G.A.R. is.... ???

   The bore is filled with concrete to within a few inches of the muzzle.
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Offline Blaster

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2009, 06:52:49 AM »
    I must confess that I don't have a clue what the G.A.R. is.... ???   

I believe it stands for the Grand Army of the Republic.  That stuff is just a "little" before my time but I'll bet Ole Double D will probably remember since he was most likely a member in good standing. ;D

It was actually a fraternal organization composed of veterans of the Union Army who had served in the Civil War.
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Offline KABAR2

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2009, 06:57:22 AM »
    I must confess that I don't have a clue what the G.A.R. is.... ???   

I believe it stands for the Grand Army of the Republic.  That stuff is just a "little" before my time.  Ole DD will probably remember. ;D

Yep Grand Army of the Republic, ............ and don't do that to DD he's younger than that! heck the wheel had even been around for

some time! yep he's younger than that!
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Offline BoomLover

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2009, 07:03:42 AM »
Concrete filled bore...easy enough to clear out, fuze hole spiked, maybe filled..could be a real one, especially if erected by G.A.R. in 1910? BoomLover
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Offline leesecw

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2009, 08:40:32 AM »
Looks like a 3 inch ordinance rifle just like the one sitting here in reese michigan, also erected by the GAR. wheres the cemetery at? ill look the cannon up in the registry
If Guns cause crime, then mine are defective...Ted Nugent

Offline leesecw

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2009, 08:44:47 AM »
if its in the cemetery at peotone its a 3 inch ordinance rifle. Made of wrought iron. 7 right handed turns in the rifling. Cast at the Phoenix iron works. Registry number 357. initials TTSL are the inspecters initials., Cast in 1862.. Weight 816 pounds
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Offline tapwater

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2009, 09:01:47 AM »
if its in the cemetery at peotone its a 3 inch ordinance rifle. Made of wrought iron. 7 right handed turns in the rifling. Cast at the Phoenix iron works. Registry number 357. initials TTSL are the inspecters initials., Cast in 1862.. Weight 816 pounds

   That's the one! It's only a few miles from me and most of my family is buried there. Thank you much for looking it up.  As for the bore size, it was getting late and I may have mis-measured.
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Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2009, 09:07:29 AM »
The barrel looks like it is mounted backwards on its stylized carriage.
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline tapwater

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2009, 09:20:55 AM »
The barrel looks like it is mounted backwards on its stylized carriage.

   Funny...I've always had that impression too. At least it keeps water out of the bore. It could seep around the concrete, freeze and do damage.
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Offline leesecw

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2009, 09:31:41 AM »
depends on where you measured, either in the lands or the grooves
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Offline tapwater

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2009, 12:46:26 PM »
   leesecw...I'm curious as to where you found the info on this rifle. (so quickly!)
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2009, 01:10:00 PM »
He looked it up on the "National Registry of Known Surviving Civil War Artillery", which is a document that has all (known) existing CW ordnance recorded on it's pages. I've just been called to dinner, but I'll be back; there is something not right with this cannon (or with my eyes)!
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2009, 02:02:11 PM »
The barrel looks like it is mounted backwards on its stylized carriage.

It may also be mounted upside down to make the vent more inaccessible and prevent water or other things from entering via that hole.
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2009, 02:32:30 PM »
It may be tipped down as a salute to those past on.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline leesecw

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2009, 03:01:42 PM »
Gotta concur with cat on the tipped down cannon. One of my good old buddies now gone was an air force veteran that participated in many military funerals and ceremonies. During a visit to a cemetery looking at old field pieces and seeing one in a tipped down position like that one he said it was sometimes done as a salute to veterans. 
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Offline leesecw

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2009, 03:07:27 PM »
For tapwater if you have an interest in civil war artillery there are two books I would reccomend off the top of my head, "Field Artillery Weapons of the Civil War, James C. Hazlett; Edwin Olmstead; M.Hume Parks and The Big Guns, Civil War Seige, Seacoast and Naval Cannon; Ed Olmstead; Wayne E. Stark; Spencer Tucker
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2009, 07:40:05 PM »
I don't know the answer to these questions; Norm may be right that the gun is mounted backwards, or Tim & Leesecw could have it correct in that the gun is mounted muzzle tipped down as a sign of respect for fallen CW soldiers. George , I did have the same thought, that the gun might be mounted upside down, so the vent wont let water get into the tube, maybe Tap can check on this and some other things if he goes back to the cemetery.
What I was having doubts about was the guns ID; the 3-inch Wrought Iron Gun/3-inch Ordnance Rifle has a smooth muzzle face that curves smoothly into the chase of the barrel. Now, as far as I know, when the US Army Ordnance Board's recommendations for modifications to John Griffen's original design (so that it would fit the standard # 2 carriage, and weigh less) were put into practice, and they approved the government contracts to purchase the newly designated "M 1861 3-inch wrought iron rifle cannon", that this gun's design had remained exactly the same right up until the time the Phoenix Iron Co. manufactured its last 3-inch ordnance rifle.



Here's the pic of the muzzle that Tap posted. If you save the pic, and enlarge it you can easily see that it has a narrow concave ring that appears after the flat face of the muzzle, and this then leads to the top surface of the barrel (the chase) of the gun, this is called a cavetto, or cavetto molding. As far as I know, none of the Phoenix Iron Co.'s 3-inch ordnance rifles ever had this feature.




This is the muzzle of another rifle made by the Phoenix Iron Co., Reg. No. 185, Inspected by JMW (James M. Whittemore - 1861-1886), Foundry No. 196, Year 1862, Wght. 817 lbs., Made of Wrought Iron, Grooves 7 Right-Hand, Cickamauga-Chattanooga National Military Park, TN. You'll notice that this gun's muzzle face is flat, and makes a smooth transition into the chase of the barrel; no cavetto! You can also see the irregular outline of the rim of the bore caused by the rifling. The rim of the bore of the gun Tap photographed appears to form a smooth circle.




Another photo of a 3-inch ordnance rifle, giving a good view of the rimbases. The rimbases on an original ordnance rifle have a graceful sweep upwards, widening til they seamlessly join the barrel, there are no sharp angles. Look at the rimbases on the gun in Tap's photo, the lines formed by the top surfaces of the rimbases come straight out from the side of the barrel; no graceful sweep upward.

There certainly is a possibility that successive thick coats of paint have obscured all the markings on this gun's muzzle face, and filled the rifling grooves to the point that they can't be discerned, but I think it would be probable that something would be visible in these areas, maybe not to the point of being able to make out the letters, and numbers, but at least to know something was there. The U.S. that would be stamped between the trunnions could now be on the underside of the barrel.

Tapwater, is this cemetery just called the Peotone Cemetery, or could it also be known by other names?
Are there any other cannons displayed at this cemetery?
Do you know if there are cannons displayed in any other Peotone cemeteries?


Leesecw, I have the new version of the Registry, the one printed after W. Stark had passed; on this Registry, any artillery that is owned by private parties is simply listed as "privately owned", there is no city, or state given, and there are no descriptions give under "comments", such as cemetery, courthouse, town square etc.. This change was made by the current keeper of the Registry because of so many requests made by owners of CW artillery to do so, they were tired of being harrassed by dealers, buyers, agents, middleman consignment sellers etc.. This alleged ordnance rifle is listed that way (privately owned), so that's all I have to go by.
Is this gun's location given as: City - Peotone, State - Il, Comments - Peotone Cemetery?
On your copy of the Registry are there any other cannons listed at this same location?
Are there any other cannons listed as being in Peotone, Illinois?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2009, 08:56:13 PM »
Paint scratched off the cascabel, almost looks like fiberglass.

Test with a magnet?

Bore---3 5/8"

Seems a little oversize for a 3", even measuring groove to groove.  Is it really rifled?
GG
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Offline tapwater

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2009, 03:16:11 AM »
   Some interesting questions have been raised.
   That's the only cannon there, and the only cemetary in town. I have newspaper clippings from the 1930's that refer to it as simply "Peotone Cemetary", same as today.
I'll try to get over there today or tomorrow. Be warned......I'm no photographer!
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2009, 07:17:52 AM »
The barrel looks like it is mounted backwards on its stylized carriage.

My guess would be that is like the custom of having arms reversed in a funeral procession. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

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Offline tapwater

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2009, 07:33:26 AM »
   Just as an aside, most of the last names on the marble base
are still around in our village. Of those that died out or moved on,
I remember most of them. (the names)
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Offline leesecw

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2009, 08:04:32 AM »
BoomJ,  the registry I have was given to me by Wayne Stark about a year before he died. I see no other artillery listed for peotone. I dont know what happened to his registry of donated obsolete ordinance. I have some of it for Michigan. Quite a few ended up in the WW2 scrap drives and I wouldnt doubt the same for the state of Illinois.
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Offline leesecw

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2009, 08:06:54 AM »
Also my registry lists cemetery or what public park etc, a few private names, and for some naval artillery what ship it was from
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2009, 11:18:11 AM »
   Some interesting questions have been raised.
   That's the only cannon there, and the only cemetary in town. I have newspaper clippings from the 1930's that refer to it as simply "Peotone Cemetary", same as today.
I'll try to get over there today or tomorrow. Be warned......I'm no photographer!

Tapwater, it would be great if you could do some field research on this gun. Tap, these are only suggestions, or to be more accurate, requests of things you could investigate.

Some specifications for the Model 1861 3-inch Ordnance Rifle.

Bore diameter - 3-inches, measured land across land
Overall length - 73-inches, muzzle face to end of cascabel
Legth of tube - 69-inches, muzzle face to breech face

The bore diameter should be even less than three inches if the paint is caked on that thickly.
 
Check the concave area (cavetto) on the muzzle face, to make sure we're not seeing an optical illusion.
Check for rifling in the front part of the bore that's exposed.
Check the muzzle face to ascertain if you can make out any marks there, I don't think the paint would block out everything.
Check underneath the rear of the gun to see if there's a vent, and if U.S. is stamped between the trunnions.
I just reviewed your photos, and it doesn't look like it will be possible to carry out the second half of the above request. ::)
You said there were paint chips missing on parts of the barrel, you might be able to tell if the paint is put on very thickly by observing the indentation that's left.
Follow George's suggestion and use a magnet to find out if this gun is really made of iron.
Take a close up picture of the rimbases.

Tapwater, consider all of the above requests to be preceded by the word, "please". Thanks

Tap, you mentioned that many of your relatives are buried here, so I'm going to assume that you've visited this cemetery many times, and probably these visits began many years ago; can you recall what the cap squares (trunnion straps) originally looked like? I have to believe the metal pieces that are there now are replacements for the cap squares that were originally used, because considering the ornate appearance of this pedestal, they just don't fit this style.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline tapwater

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2009, 02:01:45 PM »
   I'll give it a good going over. Thanks much for telling me what to look for. I ran out of daylight today, as the good woman and I were cutting firewood for next winter. Gotta grab that hedge (osage orange) whenever we get the chance. We have some maple and choke cherry on the ground that we need to cut tomorrow, but I'll find time to slip over to the cemetary....Have a good night, all.....Dale  (tap)
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2009, 02:45:00 PM »
BoomJ,  the registry I have was given to me by Wayne Stark about a year before he died. I see no other artillery listed for peotone. I dont know what happened to his registry of donated obsolete ordinance. I have some of it for Michigan. Quite a few ended up in the WW2 scrap drives and I wouldnt doubt the same for the state of Illinois.
Also my registry lists cemetery or what public park etc, a few private names, and for some naval artillery what ship it was from

Thanks Leesecw, it's good to have a current Registry, but I'd like it better if it was done in the same manner as the one you have, it would be nice to have useful information printed in the spaces that are left blank on mine.
Concerning Wayne Stark's Registry of Donated Ordnance; that's new to me, I've never heard of it before, it would sure come in handy to have that information. 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline leesecw

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2009, 03:28:49 PM »
I'd like to know what happened to it. It lists not only artillery pieces but shells of all types also that were issued to various groups by state. Wayne put alot of work into that. Its in the series of congressional reports issued by year i think he told me.  Wayne went through the large volumes and picked out the copies. Also he discovered that there was a surviving index of what guns were issued to what unit by state. That would be a genealogists or reserchers dream but to make room for other things a supervisor without the knowledge of his superiors had the whole archive burned. Wayne also told me that there were crates somewheres of paperwork relating to artillery from the civil war but have never been archived or indexed. He equated this warehouse or whatever it was to looking like the end scene of the Indian Jones movie "The Lost Ark"  I never saw any info as to whether it really existed or not. Too bad Wayne passed on.
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Offline tapwater

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Re: Cemetary Cannon
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2009, 05:00:09 PM »
   Boom J or anyone. I must confess my ignorance of cannon nomenclature. What are the rimbases? I've always been just a shooter and pyromaniac. I'm just now starting to delve into the more historic side of things. Much to learn, if you'll bear with me....
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