Author Topic: Reloading the handi-is a Lee Loader sufficient? (Read 3668 times)

Hodr · « **Reply #30 on:** March 23, 2009, 09:27:36 PM »

I bought my first Lee Loader in 1969 fresh out of the army to feed my habit of 38 spl. The kit would make 357 or 38. I had a S&W combat masterpiece and I just liked knowing that I put together what I shot. I still have it and use it for the same reason. Not to save money, just for my own satisfaction.

blindhari

rickt300 · « **Reply #31 on:** March 24, 2009, 04:27:31 AM »

As to speed, you don't have to lube your cases to size them with the LEE loaders so you don't have to spend any time lubing and cleaning cases. The powder measure scoops are far faster than using a standard scale. It is beyond reason that Mitchell has such a poor opinion of the LEE classic kits when he has never used them.

wreckhog · « **Reply #32 on:** March 24, 2009, 06:11:47 AM »

I am plotting my purchase. BTW, if you have a .410 Lee Loader, now might be the time to throw it up on Ebay. No idea why they are going for almost as much as MEC's.

jgalar · « **Reply #33 on:** March 24, 2009, 10:38:23 AM »

You will need to expand the case mouth to be able to seat cast bullets without shaving lead. The Lee loader doesn't do this. A taper punch can be used.

Troyboy · « **Reply #34 on:** March 24, 2009, 12:35:00 PM »

It's your world. If you want one give it a try. Youll lose nothing but a little time. Cost is so low as to not even be a real factor.

mitchell · « **Reply #35 on:** March 24, 2009, 12:41:01 PM »

Quote from: Sourdough on March 22, 2009, 10:32:01 AM

I used a lee loader for a few years for a .308. It worked fine when my shots were all close, but as ranges increased the inconsistancy in the amount of powder started showing up in poor groups. I got a powder scale, problem solved. Those scoops are just not that accurate.

ok well rickt300 you called me out heres my replay, sourdough is a world class shooter and had more hunting and shooting exsperance then any of us will have in our life time. and even he had poor groups when useing the lee loader.

and me not to toot my own horn but my reloading skills speak for themselves, i know what im doing and i do it well. i dont need to buy bull crap to know that is bull crap, and i don't need to buy a lee loader to know that i can make better rounds with the reloading gear i have .

you need to do a little reading about center line of the bore and how to make concentric reloads.

as i said before consistancy is key , powder must be the same from round to round ,hard to do with scoops,(and yes i have used scoops i do use lee dies), brass prep dont have much to do with what were talking about but there is a lot to do, the bullet must be seated the same way everytime to the same depth everytime kinda hard to do when your wackin it with a hammer, do to your arm getting tired its not possible, seatin your primers i dont think there is a better tool then the lee auto prime that really lets you feel when the primer is all the way seated again kinda hard to do when wackin it with a hammer.

there a crap load of reasons not to get it but if you want it go for it dude , this is the great U S of A where you are free to do whatever makes yourself happy

happy loadin!!

mitch

handipardner · « **Reply #36 on:** March 24, 2009, 02:27:34 PM »

mitchell sayes:

"there a crap load of reasons not to get it"

In the late seventies and early eighties I used a Lee Loader to load 264 winchester magnum ammunition for hunting.
The rifle was a high quality repeating bolt action made in the sixties. My reloads routinely shot under .75 inch at 100 yards. I did weight the charges however. For that era that was exceptional shooting from a hunting rifle and obviously the Lee loader contributed to that performance. I am thrilled and surprized that so many on this board use Lee Loaders.

mitchell · « **Reply #37 on:** March 24, 2009, 02:54:44 PM »

ok ill stop fitting and wrap things up with this:

if any of you really think you can make better ammo with less runout on your lee loader then with a real reloading set up , then you are the master of all reloading and i hear by tap out to your greatness.

this guy is trying to get into reloading , it would be nice of us to stop have our "mines better then yours" and let the guy know whats out there so he can have a well rounded point of view when he spends HIS money

hey hog , the lee loader will work just fine for what u want im just trying to make sure you know there are other things out there.

[soap box]

i've been to a lot of matches and never have i heard of a bench rest shooter or F-class shppter using a lee loader.

i'm just throwing that out there

[off soap box]

mitch

c1skout · « **Reply #38 on:** March 24, 2009, 02:58:18 PM »

Guess I'll add my $.02
I have a Lee loader for the 45-70 and like it just fine. To answer your question it is definately sufficient. The only thing I don't like about it is hammering the primers in. Everything else I load are done on normal presses and I must say for the way I shoot the Lee loader is just as good.

handipardner · « **Reply #39 on:** March 24, 2009, 03:00:56 PM »

mitchell

Lighten up man. Why do we have to load to a benchrest standard of accuracy? By that standard most guns and reloading equipment are inadequate!!!

Handi

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #40 on:** March 24, 2009, 04:42:55 PM »

I have a Lee Loader for every caliber I shoot. While it may not make bench rest quality reloads I'm not a bench rest quality shooter and I don't shoot bench rest quality guns.
In my experience one of the first bit of quality ammo that I tried to put together was when I was shooting a T/C Super 14 in .30-30 Win at the local handgun silhouette matches. my load of 28 grains of 3031 with a 150 grain Hornady SP bullet would put 3 rounds on paper at 50 yards that I could cover with a dime.
My dipping procedure is to pour my powder into a Correll round bottom coffee cup. I push the dipper one time through the powder and lightly tap the side of the handle twice each time. When the level of powder drops an inch I put in more powder so I keep the level as consistent as possible throughout.
I purchased my first LL for .38 Special in about 1973 so I could feed my S&W M67. That pistol is long gone but the LL lives on and has fed many other .38's and .357's.
I have also used my knee as a workbench with a discarded paper back book to cushion the blows of the hammer and soften the noise.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #41 on:** March 25, 2009, 01:52:57 AM »

How many of you load with only the Lee Loader? It can be done , but most soon get a press of some type to speed things up and make it easier. If it's all you can afford right now, get it. If you can spend double, get the Lee kit with C press, scale and measure and use it for years. As you spend more time reloading, you will spend more money on "stuff". I tell myself it's to save money, but looking around me I have to admit I haven't saved any money I just have lots of stuff for my kids to get when I'm gone.

DP

rickt300 · « **Reply #42 on:** March 25, 2009, 03:45:16 AM »

Mitchell
Lubing and cleaning the lube off cases is not just case prep it is a necessity when using standard dies. Case prep is cleaning primer pockets and chamfering case mouths. The LEE system only sizes the neck and since you haven't tried it I'll tell you that runout is no worse than what you get with standard dies that neck size only. Bullet seating is also very consistant once you get the hang of it since you havent done it you don't know do you. I have powder dippers I have made from cartridge cases and also use the LEE dippers, I have weighed thousands of charges in a scale from these dippers and know that with a little practice + or - 2 tenths of a grain is attainable with practice. This is sufficiently accurate to beat MOA by a big margin and has been the death of many prairie dogs from way out there. Just so you know I bought my first LEE loaders after I got my first press and used them to load thousands of rounds for my 223, 22-250 and 270 when I was going to college and space was limited. I also have been to many matches and prairie dog shoots. I have seen many shooters using hand loading tools to make match ammo with, both Forster and LEE tools being used. Where these tools come up short is when you need to load for a rifle with a springy action at top pressures but this would also be true of standard neck sizing dies. If Sourdough had problem with his there could have been other factors at work but you don't know do you as you weren't there.

Dillohide · « **Reply #43 on:** March 25, 2009, 05:08:38 AM »

I use the Lee Loader, primarily for my 45/70 but also have them in 30-30, 30-06, 270 and 223. I also have a press and dies. I got into hand loading with a 30-30 Lee Loader. Eventually found by adding a Lee case trimmer, swing powder scale, powder trickle and primer loader I could make better ammo with it for little investment. Used the dipper to get close then trickle powder in the scale. Now I have a lot of equipment but still enjoy using the Lee Loader occasionally and always use it on the 45/70 which is quite accurate.

kitchawan kid · « **Reply #44 on:** March 25, 2009, 06:41:50 AM »

The Lee loader is great for the 45/70,and you will find master class shooters using them for part of their reloading,all most all BP shooter use it or the hand loader to de-prime at the range.Also fire-formed straight wall cartridges don't need belling or crimping and bullets installed finger tite.All recommend the best in powder measure equipment.

Chas. · « **Reply #45 on:** March 25, 2009, 11:20:27 AM »

Quote from: kitchawan kid on March 25, 2009, 06:41:50 AM

Also fire-formed straight wall cartridges don't need belling or crimping and bullets installed finger tite.

I'm far from an expert, but I don't think that's true for cartridges used in lever-action and/or revolvers.

BCall · « **Reply #46 on:** March 25, 2009, 11:23:42 AM »

Back to the OP, how much are you wanting to load and shoot would be my main question. I use Lee Loaders for certain calibers, but if I shoot very much at all, I would buy a press, much easier and less time consuming. And if you are planning on any longer distance shooting, a press setup is much easier to produce more concentric ammo. I have shot some very good groups with Lee Loaders out to 150 yards or so, but the press setup gets the call for longer range stuff. I also do not hammer in the primers, set one off, and you will see why. I don't hammer in the bullets either- I use a drill press like an arbor press to press the bullets in. If you can find one of the older "improved" loaders, they are much better in my opinion. The hand priming tool they use is not the best, but still better than hammering in primers, and the depriming base is different, and it makes it easier to seat the bullets straighter. Get one, they are cheap, they work, and if you don't like it, they can be sold for pretty much what you gave for it. But if you plan on shooting much at all, you will be money ahead to buy a press setup. The Lee breechlock press kit is a decent press, and the kit with everything you need inclluding a priming tool can be had for around $100. JMO, Billy

BTW, I have 4 of the Lee "Zero Error" target loaders, and used properly, I can get ammo just as concentric and as accurate as with my press setup, but I use a scale for the powder. I can thorw charges with the scoops and ball powder that vary no more than a tenth of a grain for 20+ throws, but when you use extruded powders, I cannot keep the charges consistent enough for my liking.

Hodr · « **Reply #47 on:** March 25, 2009, 02:51:15 PM »

I vote with Mitchell. The start of this link was a guy who wanted to reload "mostly for punching paper". The only reloads that really do that consistently are those where every variable including rifle, ammo, range, weather, condition of shooter,(and coach) is eliminated to find a known and calibrated shoot. I know, I was on three US Army rifle teams shooting from 66-69.

That being said I also was trained in sniping (daylight and Strlight scope) with a well set up m-14 and STANDARD ISSUE
ammo. My lee loader is I believe the eaqual of what I bet my life on in red and bloody days, long ago and far away.

Last Mitchell try it, somehow it is sort of satisfying.

I swear this is true by the Ranger badge tatooed on my backside,

blindhari

tykempster · « **Reply #48 on:** March 25, 2009, 05:11:11 PM »

Ok time to be realistic-

Someone shooting a Handi isn't going to be expecting stellar groups, or needing stellar groups. (Never saw a Handi at a match I've been to)

Someone shooting a Handi isn't going to be hailing lead out at a rate of 450 rounds per minute

For general shooting in the 45-70's optimum range (under 200 yards 95% of the time) the Lee Loader is going to produce sub minute of deer groups. It won't be the quickest or "best" way to do it, but it will be the cheapest!

mitchell · « **Reply #49 on:** March 26, 2009, 11:07:08 AM »

i have do have handis that shoot groups that would hold their own in compitions as shooting in the .2s and.1s is the norm with them.

so never say never

if all u want is something to go BANG then cool but i have this thing where i just want to get the most out of every rifle i have , anything over .5moa doesn't go out hunting with me , you never know sometimes you might have stretch out that shot quite a bit where little thing do matter.

fine yall talked me into it, im going to do a few test and see

vincewarde · « **Reply #50 on:** March 26, 2009, 11:21:59 AM »

I know this thread is super long - but here's my .02 worth........

I think that instead of going with a Lee Loader, it makes a lot more sense to go with a Lee Hand Press and a set of Lee Dies. The dies come with a powder dipper and a shell holder - so they can do everything the Lee Loader can, and more. The cost should be under $50.00 - not much more than a Lee Loader.

I have been reloading long enough to have an RCBS Junior press on my bench - but I have two Lee Hand presses. They are just plain handy!

rickt300 · « **Reply #51 on:** March 26, 2009, 06:38:53 PM »

Mitchell, it takes a real hot shooter to say that anything over .5 at 100 yards isn't good enough to hunt with. Do your tests as it is probably true you aren't able to create good ammo with the most expensive reloading equipment on the market. To say groups of .1 or .2 are the norm with ANY rifle is unrealistic. Get a life and see what you can do to keep Obama from ruining the dollar. In fact I'll go as far to say I don't think you have ever shot a group smaller than .5 in your life with anything. Don't take this as a personal attack just an personal opinion.

Hodr · « **Reply #52 on:** March 26, 2009, 08:01:04 PM »

It should be easy to test the hypothesis. Get two well known shooters. one making ammo with a Lee Loader, one with an absolut, custom set up together. Go to the range and each shoots the others rifle. At the same time have a third party blind load each gun, every round. Then take averages, decide best, shake hands and go down for a steak and beer. It always worked for me. WINNER buys the beer.
Always worked for me.

blindhari

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #53 on:** March 27, 2009, 01:23:44 AM »

Quote from: rickt300 on March 26, 2009, 06:38:53 PM

Mitchell, it takes a real hot shooter to say that anything over .5 at 100 yards isn't good enough to hunt with. Do your tests as it is probably true you aren't able to create good ammo with the most expensive reloading equipment on the market. To say groups of .1 or .2 are the norm with ANY rifle is unrealistic. Get a life and see what you can do to keep Obama from ruining the dollar. In fact I'll go as far to say I don't think you have ever shot a group smaller than 1. in your life with anything. Don't take this as a personal attack just an personal opinion.

Mitchell has been witnessed shooting groups like that by other people here on Greybeards, GB himself would probably attest to Mitchs shooting skill. I also think more than a couple of insurgents in Iraq have gooten first hand experiance of how he can shoot also.

His skills are proven.

That being said, I think he was being a little harsh on the Lee loaders. They may not be up to Mitches skill level but to an average shooter they work just fine.

My hunting rifles need to make 2" groups at 100 yards for me to be happy and most of mine will do that offhand if I do my part. and I have a couple that will shoot inside an inch. but I think a better shooter (like Mitch) could tighten up the groups on my rifles.

burntmuch · « **Reply #54 on:** March 27, 2009, 02:45:37 AM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on March 27, 2009, 01:23:44 AM

Quote from: rickt300 on March 26, 2009, 06:38:53 PM
Mitchell, it takes a real hot shooter to say that anything over .5 at 100 yards isn't good enough to hunt with. Do your tests as it is probably true you aren't able to create good ammo with the most expensive reloading equipment on the market. To say groups of .1 or .2 are the norm with ANY rifle is unrealistic. Get a life and see what you can do to keep Obama from ruining the dollar. In fact I'll go as far to say I don't think you have ever shot a group smaller than 1. in your life with anything. Don't take this as a personal attack just an personal opinion.

That being said, I think he was being a little harsh on the Lee loaders. They may not be up to Mitches skill level but to an average shooter they work just fine.

My hunting rifles need to make 2" groups at 100 yards for me to be happy and most of mine will do that offhand if I do my part. and I have a couple that will shoot inside an inch. but I think a better shooter (like Mitch) could tighten up the groups on my rifles.

Badnews bob. Thats pretty much where Im at. Im comfortable with a gun in the woods that will shoot between 1.5 to 2 inch groups. Obviosly Im trying for better, But with working 60 hours a week & 3 kids & a wife, my range time is very limited. To each is own on the Lee loader. I would be comfortable hunting with rounds loaded with the Lee Loader.

Datil · « **Reply #55 on:** March 27, 2009, 04:08:44 AM »

Wrech Hog, I like lee loaders for some things, but I would get Lee Piming tool to go with it.
I don't like pounding in with a hammer, Nor i don't like the way most press seat primers in.

Mitch I talk to you at the P. Dog Shoot Datil

kitchawan kid · « **Reply #56 on:** March 27, 2009, 06:05:36 AM »

I would like to own 2 or 3 Dillon super 1050's,but I neither have the room or the $1559.95 ea.

rickt300 · « **Reply #57 on:** March 27, 2009, 06:49:16 AM »

I have a press and a LEE loader that I can set up for my 22-250 and compare groups with. So far this very accurate (to me) heavy barreled rifle has never shot a five shot group better than .4 I think I'll load 20 rounds from each setup with identical components and new brass to see just how much difference there really is. To be completely fair I will use a dipper I made up that holds 38.0 grains of H380 with the LEE setup and scale the loads I make with the press. I will prime the cases for all loads using a plastic faced hammer and the LEE priming tools. Of course the LEE rounds will be neck sized and the press will full length size the cases. This will have to wait a bit as all my cases are loaded, the brass used will be once fired new Winchester brass.

tykempster · « **Reply #58 on:** March 28, 2009, 08:32:40 AM »

.1 and .2 groups from a Handi being the norm? Unless that's 25 yards I'd put money against it.

Hodr · « **Reply #59 on:** March 28, 2009, 12:30:49 PM »

After reading Burntmatch"s blurb, I agree even more strongly Mitchell is right. Open terrain, combat tension and dessert conditions make one kind of shooter. Jungle, low light, combat tension and high humidity make another type altogether. Best rifleman I ever met was a surrvivor of time in Korea. He was traumatised and bought an M1 garand when he got home. I shot a Springfield armory m-14 wannabe against him at Camp Roberts courtesy of Brigade Sgt Major I knew. Flat beat him at the bench with the 308 round. He talked the rangemaster into letting him in front of the benches and allowing movement. He walked out front with his M1 and clipped ammo in his pockets. When targets popped up, he sidestepped, hit the ground and rolled to prone. Two shots together, two shots together, over and over, reloading as he rolled. When Cliff got over the shakes, Rangemaster closed the range and we walked the target line. Almost every target had two holes. First thing I could think of was to walk over and tell Cliff I was a good shot, but he was the best rifleman I had ever seen. You got three opinions here. Mitchells right, I'm right, and Cliff was right. We came back. Each of us knows beyond any doubt, we're right.

blindhari