Author Topic: Is one enough . (Read 17535 times)

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #120 on:** July 28, 2009, 08:21:28 AM »

You're gonna cause a run on flints with talk like that. I don't think you should plan on finding anything, if the balloon goes up. How long did it take for the ammo to dry up with no crissis, and the ammo factories are running just fine. Plenty of stored food and the makings of a garden and the means to preserve will likely be the winning strategy. Meat is a luxury item in most parts of the planet, especially those that are in turmoil. I wonder how much of the worlds population is surviving with a 2qt pot, water, rice, and a fire to cook it on. Throw in a blue tarp a few 6' 2x4's and you have the standard refugee camp kit. Add a garden and a couple goats and all of a sudden it's called a native village in the third world countries.

MarkNJ · « **Reply #121 on:** July 28, 2009, 11:42:29 PM »

Don, interesting you should mention the reduced load cases shrinking. I get the same effect with my 308 subsonic cases. I have wondered if a medium load would fireform them back again.

Have you tried the 6x45....could that be a candidate for an allrounder?

I maintain that a 22 and a 308 (or any common deer cartridge) will suffice after SHTF has calmed down but in saying that, my subsonic 308 loads are accurate enough for cottontails out at 100 without a sound signature and with their deep penetrating 220 grain projectiles are fine for deer as well at that range. I could almost get away with just the 308 for all game harvesting

don heath · « **Reply #122 on:** July 29, 2009, 02:38:43 AM »

Hi Mark - nope never tried the 6x45. Have a 6XC which is a great target round. It wouldn't be my first choice as a survival round though because the 6mmBR (Norma) Shoots the same bullet, nearly as fast in a lot smaller and more efficient package. Out to 300m the 6BR is all one needs and you do not give up enough to worry about out to 600m- beyond that range you need a 6XC, but for a survival rifle...I want small and efficient.

I have a 6.8 SPCII on a CZ mini Mauser action and a 6,5 Grendel on the same. Unfortuantely the bolt face is just too small for the 6mmBR..Have a Sako short action comming and want to try that.

teamnelson · « **Reply #123 on:** July 29, 2009, 10:21:12 AM »

I have to keep harping on the fact that this discussion isn't in a vacuum. For me the answer to this question depends on likely availability of ammo, or reloading supplies; economy of force/scale; likelihood that I have to physically carry the gun and all ammo/makings and maintenance tools/supplies for it 24/7; strong likelihood that a child or woman will have to use it when I'm hurt or dead; possibility that it may need to last generations, and still be useful for hunting and defense.

Self-sustainable could mean society as we know it is going on around us but we're not dependent on them. The safety net there is you have a reasonable chance to buy/barter things you need. Self-sustainable could also mean EOTWAWKI, which is not Katrina with FEMA on the way or even air dropped UN relief packages. It could mean the end of the world as we know it, which means every gram of powder or lead, every primer is one less than you'll ever have again.

MarkNJ · « **Reply #124 on:** July 29, 2009, 11:11:38 PM »

Interesting Don. I too like the CZ action and I like your choice of calibers. Would you consider the CZ as your survival rifle, in the 6.5 Grendel? .... or do you have another candidate

don heath · « **Reply #125 on:** August 02, 2009, 08:37:43 PM »

Hi Mark

The 6,5 Grendel is an increadibly efficient round- easy to reload for, economical of powder and generally very accurate. Out of my 22" barrel it is easily effective to 500m.

The 6.8SPCII is a better close range man stopper. Also very efficient but not really a long range round- wasn't designed as such. Have an 18" barrel and folding stock on that CZ! Begins to run out of stem much past 300m - particularly with the 85grn Barnes bullets (which are oh so effective out to 150m when hunting).

The 6mm BR is the most powerful of the three - and I get free ammo....Probably the only reason I am persuing a decent rifle in a short action in this round.

As a general purpose round for both hunting and self defence against people, the 6,5 is a darn good choice - IF you have a good source of bullets (not the most common cal in the USA) and a good stock of brass. The 6.8 is, I think more freely available but still a reloading option if you want the advantages of the SPCII chamber. On the other hand, both rounds are easy to reload in a lee or Lyman hand press, Use small rifle primers and relatively little powder for their power...

The 6.8 just begs to be silenced- and a barrel longer than 18-20" defeats the concept of the round - it works well from 16" so you can build a very handy carbine. The 6,5 needs at least a 20" barrel.

MarkNJ · « **Reply #126 on:** August 03, 2009, 12:00:28 AM »

Thanks Don. I've read a lot about these two calibers and have waded through their respective forums, the members all singing the praises of their favourite caliber. Your's is the first report of an individual having used both and to come up with an alternative.
I had no idea the Grendel needs the longer barrel to be effective. I thought it was designed for the M16 platform and a shorter barrel. We live and learn

Your experiances with the SPC seem consistant with what I have read.
The 6mmBR, is that the case with the .470" base, similar to the 308/30-06 family of cartridges only much shorter and necked down? If so then I believe it is in the same family as the 280 British and 308x1.5 Barnes, except with a smaller diameter projectile.

Unfortunatly, over here, we can't get factory ammunition for these cartridges and factory cases, for reloading, are hard to find. This is why I earlier suggested the 6x45, a necked up 223, the brass being modified in a single reloading pass. These cartridges easily push a .243 90 grain bullet at 2700fps with 1400 ftlbs of energy, retaining deer killing energy out past 150 yards.

How do you get free ammo

don heath · « **Reply #127 on:** August 03, 2009, 12:14:18 AM »

Mark - where are you? All things are available everywhere if you know who to ask!

Re- 6BR- since this mornings post I have just picked up a short sako action- Nope 6BR is 1mm too long for Norma factory ammo to fit (loaded with the 105 HP) I could load it with other bullets or shorter, but it is the 100-105grn bullets that make the 6BR shine. And yes, it is a standard .308 head sise, small rifle primer though and shortened to 1,547" (there is a metric explanation for this).

6,5 Grendal was intended to provide a long range round that would fit in the AR15. It also makes IPSC major (with 130grn bullets). In theory it was intended to provide a) better stopping power and b) better long range performance than the .223. This it does. BUT...performance (like the .223's) falls off rapidly as the barrel length drops below 20". It is at it's best with 120-125 grn bullets but you need 130grn bullets to make IPSC Major power factor without being cleaver with powders or pressures. It also helps to have a 22" barrel.

The 6.8 was designed for best performance from the 14,5" carbine barrels and is at its best in 16-18" barrels. Going longer doesn't really help you much- the piston effect that it capitalises on fades quickly beyond 20". It is at its best with the Barnes 85gn TSX although was originally designed to work with 115grn OTM bullets.

MarkNJ · « **Reply #128 on:** August 03, 2009, 01:53:31 AM »

Don, I'm in New Zealand, land of the legal suppressor.

I had a girlfriend back in the 1980's who had an uncle living in Rhodesia. The uncle (named Durham) was having great difficulty trying to leave the country with his financial assets. I remember this because the girlfriend was upset and her father was making lots of international calls.
Is this where you are?

Sorry, off topic

Just had a look around on the net and yes, I can find a little ammo, over here, for the 6.8spc and brass for the 6mmBR but both are costly, well over double the price of more common calibers. Couldn't find anything for the Grendel although 220 Russian brass is available and can be necked up and 7.62x39 brass can be necked down I believe.

If the Sako won't work, what other action will you try?

If the light mediums like the 6x45, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8spc, 6mmPPC,6mmBR (in fact any of the BR cases up to .30) where readily available and common over here then I may well have chosen one of them before I settled on the 308. Another option was the 7.62x39 with the Ackley treatment but wasn't sure how that would fare with steel cases ammo.

don heath · « **Reply #129 on:** August 03, 2009, 07:53:37 PM »

Yup A Rhodesian - and it aint got any better.

A little work with a file and the sako action works fine

It is going to take some work to get it flash 1A feeding wise with the 6BR with the Berger 105VLD bullet, and the magazine will only hold two rounds by the look of things. Still, a fun project for the Christmas down time - need a new barrel anyway and that will only come in January.

Privi partizan and SAKO make 6,5 Grendel cases and ammo. Sako make excelent cases in 6ppc as well. Rem makes the cheapest 6.8SPC cases. Your reminton agent should be able to order you bulk brass. You do not want to bother with factory ammo- it is way underloaded if you have the correct SPCII chamber.

Norma makes the 6BR. Agent is C.R. Pain 09 415 8704

Have nothing to do with steel cases!!! It will be interesting to see if the 6.8 SPC takes off properly, which I think it will if the SPCII chamber can be standardised (changing throat and barrel twist adds 300fps which takes it from mild to pretty wild- 85grn at 3000fps). Time will tell - in the meantime I am enjoying playing and building the ultimate impala rifle for my son.

Travis Morgan · « **Reply #130 on:** August 03, 2009, 08:36:18 PM »

I think I'd use a cylindrical dremel stone at low speed for the job.

MarkNJ · « **Reply #131 on:** August 04, 2009, 12:49:12 AM »

I'm impressed Don, that phone number tells me the agent is only an hours drive away. Won't phone now, it's 2247 hrs.

I've sent a PM

calling4life · « **Reply #132 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:52:59 AM »

Original point of this thread has me saying.

Marlin 1895 in 4570 for stopping power, tracking the animals I shoot is no fun, plus if I've got moose or grizzlies around, this should be perfect
DPMS long range 308, great for any longer range circumstances.
Kimber 45 for defense, stopping power.
SBE 12 gauge for killing everything from squirrels to the majestic bald eagle, I hear they fry up well.

I guess I've never been much for the smaller calibers, these weapons would take care of me in North America/Alaska.

Shawnee Gene · « **Reply #133 on:** September 07, 2009, 05:46:38 AM »

I would say that caliber choice is more important than action type. I use the "immortal four", 30-06, 12 gauge, 357 mag, and 22LR.

BrianB · « **Reply #134 on:** September 13, 2009, 10:31:53 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on April 08, 2009, 12:20:08 PM

i figure a knife will be the most important tool one could have

Wow! This is a very educational thread and lots of good opinions on here. Though we will probably never need to worry about it, it is very interesting.

Shootall, I'm with you, I have long said that if I was going into a survival situation, the two most important things I could think of to have would be a good, sturdy knife and lots of string. The string could be used for everything from fastening framework for a primitive shelter to trapping to fishing (And obviously a billion other uses.) The knife? Well, the list of uses is again limitless. A gun? Hmmm. If I was carrying most of my possessions most of the time, a .22 is the obvious choice as small game would be the primary target. Maybe something like the small Stevens .22 single shot bolt action rifle they used to make would be a good choice. It is small, lightweight, and the one I used to have, before giving it to a friend's son, killed a lot of squirrels. It, like some other bolt actions, will shoot .22 CB's, shorts, longs and long rifles, adding to the versatility. The Stevens Favorite would fit the bill as well or maybe better. If I knew the rest of my life was going to be spent in hunter-gatherer mode, a single-shot shotgun and single-shot .357 rifle would be my next and final choices for long guns, particularly if I had a place to stash them. I figure very little effort would be spent hunting large game. Only so much meat could be used before it went bad (even if you smoke-cured it). The main reason for shooting a large game animal once in a while would be for the hide, at least in my way of thinking. I'm picking rather simple weapons because of reliability. A fourth gun? I'm gonna go with a small frame .357 that is light. This is only for protection and I'm choosing the .357 over the .38 only because it will shoot both. I'm choosing a wheelgun because I doubt more than one or two bullets would ever be fired in any given defense situation (if any), they are more reliable than autos, and their relative simplicity.

Travis Morgan · « **Reply #135 on:** September 14, 2009, 06:11:48 AM »

A repeater would be a better choice than the single shot.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #136 on:** September 14, 2009, 07:25:49 AM »

worst case , a simi in 308 would be my rifle choice , the German and the Jap army proved without doubt a bolt gun is no match for a repeter . yes a good knife , which would mean 2 knives or a good knife and small axe . Rope would be my choice along with some fishing line and hooks .

Travis Morgan · « **Reply #137 on:** September 14, 2009, 11:44:54 AM »

Not to mention, cast bullet loads out of a rifle are good for small to medium sized game.

kynardsj · « **Reply #138 on:** September 14, 2009, 11:58:16 AM »

With the guns I have now the four would be a scoped 22 bolt action rifle, stainless 22 Single Six, scoped 357 mag 10 inch Contender and my stainless 357 mag Blackhawk.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #139 on:** September 14, 2009, 12:34:39 PM »

Kynardsj,
I think you hit the nail on the head.
It's what you have now.
If things happened tonight you would have what you have.
Now if you can plan out what to have then that is a different story and it would be nice to beable to get what you want.
Heck if I knew what day I would want a tank!

Travis Morgan · « **Reply #140 on:** September 14, 2009, 12:47:28 PM »

McWoodduck,

My problem is that right now, I couldn't choose easily from what I've got! I don't have all that much, but what I DO have is damn handy and carefully chosen.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #141 on:** September 14, 2009, 12:57:40 PM »

Chappers · « **Reply #142 on:** September 14, 2009, 01:15:28 PM »

How many rifles do you have? I only have two but i got to say with these two i can take down any game around in this area.

Had take one and run it would be the .22... ammo is light it can take medium game too and not as loud.

I would never take both because is such a situation i would see a second rifle a hindrance.

Travis Morgan · « **Reply #143 on:** September 14, 2009, 01:20:46 PM »

The major quandaries are between a Winchester ranger and trapper in .30-30, 3 1/2" .45 Colt vs. 4 5/8", or maybe the 4 5/8" .357 because the ammo is lighter? Thank God I don't have an iron sighted bolt gun with a good quick change scope mount setup!

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #144 on:** September 14, 2009, 01:36:49 PM »

Quote from: Chappers on September 14, 2009, 01:15:28 PM

How many rifles do you have? I only have two but i got to say with these two i can take down any game around in this area.

Had take one and run it would be the .22... ammo is light it can take medium game too and not as loud.

I would never take both because is such a situation i would see a second rifle a hindrance.

I have 8 22LR rifles. Then you get into all the varmint, meduim, big game, dangerous game rifles and the old miltitary stuff.....
Lots

teamnelson · « **Reply #145 on:** September 14, 2009, 01:50:22 PM »

Quote from: Travis Morgan on September 14, 2009, 11:44:54 AM

Not to mention, cast bullet loads out of a rifle are good for small to medium sized game.

because of this I'd happily grab a matched pair, levergun & revolver. Today it'd be in .357; tomorrow?

Jay, Tx · « **Reply #146 on:** October 04, 2009, 05:23:23 PM »

Air rifle w/bullet mold- Small game, and could be used indefinitely (bullets made from melted down wheel weights on auto's).

222 remington, since I already have it and plenty of loading supplies- small to medium game.

280 remington improved, again cause I already have it- Large game and long range defense.

Colt 1911 45acp.- up close personal defense weapon.

My wife's four;

Browning Hi Power 9mm- Self defense.

20ga shotgun- small game.

sks-short range to medium defense and cover fire.

7mm08- medium to large game.

Jay

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #147 on:** October 05, 2009, 03:22:42 AM »

I watched Whale hunters last night , they protected the Whale crew from polar bears with a Ruger mini 14 , the Game department personal used a 12 ga. shot gun . These guys deal with this stuff every day HUMM .

teddy12b · « **Reply #148 on:** October 05, 2009, 03:29:02 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on October 05, 2009, 03:22:42 AM

I watched Whale hunters last night , they protected the Whale crew from polar bears with a Ruger mini 14 , the Game department personal used a 12 ga. shot gun . These guys deal with this stuff every day HUMM .

I'm curious about what they had in the mags of that mini 14. Nosler Partitions, Barnes TSX, or whatever it is, I'd just be curious about they have loaded in the gun or if they even give it any thought.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #149 on:** October 05, 2009, 03:41:54 AM »

They didn't say , didn't mention the gun it just was there . FMJ maybe for penitration . real small bullet !
I shot with a guy who says he was "up north " in viet nam and saw a tiger shot with an m-16 all down its side and it walked away . True story ? I have no clue .