Author Topic: Is one enough . (Read 17529 times)

mannyrock · « **Reply #90 on:** July 08, 2009, 03:50:13 PM »

Wow. This has sure gone far afield, but is interesting.

12 gauge shotgun.

.22 LR

.308

.223

Those seem to be the four most common choices.

To each his own. (But it better be a repeater!)

Don, here in the U.S., dangerous game animals (except for gun wielding primates) are of no concern, though I can see their relevance in Africa.

Best Regards,

Mannyrock

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #91 on:** July 09, 2009, 02:16:22 AM »

Mannyrock , if you work around large animals a gun large enough to put one down/stop it can be a comfort . A big bull that decides a little shock ain't that big of a deal can ruin your whole day . Something new to me at least where i live is bears . We have never before in my life time had bears near my home . Well about 8 or so years ago one showerd up in my driveway . It was about 175 lbs. It went up a tree at a Lowe's store and they put it to sleep for a nap and moved it away . No big problem really not alot of danger . Well fast forward now there are several or more in the 300-350 lb class living in the area . They come in the yard and do other bear stuff . they seem to not fear humans or dom. animals . There have been a few stand offs , there have been some hit by cars . I don't walk at night anymore with out a gun so at least some are concerned with dangerous game animals .

mannyrock · « **Reply #92 on:** July 09, 2009, 05:23:44 AM »

Yes Shootall, I know what you mean. I live adjacent to Appalachian mountains, in the Shenandoah Valley. Lots of big bears here. I think about 800 a year are killed here during our bear season.

Yet, for me, if I only had to pick one gun for survival, I wouldn't let the occasional black bear encounter be a deciding factor. People would probably shoot them to the brink of extinction during the first 60 days or so, as would be the case with almost all big game. It will disappear very fast.

Regards,
Mannyrock

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #93 on:** July 09, 2009, 06:36:52 AM »

That is true but sometimes survival is mesured in hours and days not all out end of time .

teamnelson · « **Reply #94 on:** July 09, 2009, 07:42:17 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 09, 2009, 06:36:52 AM

That is true but sometimes survival is mesured in hours and days not all out end of time .

True. If history is any indicator, the first few days or weeks (depending) are pretty chaotic. Lots of killing going on, people panicked about the future, communities or gangs will form up for protection. Large game will be shot to hell by folks who have never done it before, including domestic animals and pets. The elderly and the invalid might not make it very long. All the bodies attract disease and vermin. Surviving that I would argue would require something a bit larger than a .22 as there will be a lot of those hours and days.

Lot of migration going on, so folks in the country set up to ride it out can count on waves of refugees wandering on their property. If you live within the range of an SUV on a full tank of gas from city limits, that means you. First wave immediately after, and they'll probably be in shock and relatively kind. All the waves after that will be desperate and willing to fight. Migration will stop eventually, except for the random little parties on foot. Something larger than a .22 at your country home would seem to be useful for that too.

But then it will settle down; folks will get a feeling like, we made it! and the task of surviving the long term will settle in. In the absence of established law & order, country justice will be the norm, probably conducted by the heads of households within your community taking leadership. Something larger than a .22 might be nice to have during those days, but probably not used as much. A plow and a mule would be worth more.

However, all along the way there will be LOTS of barely fired dropped once ARs and AKs, 1911s and Glocks for you to collect and store. Why those? Well I am modeling after events that have occurred numerous times on other continents, and folks who can afford the higher end weapons normally don't match the profile of a survivor. In our country, lots of semis get sold in cities. $1500 for an AR, $900 for a 1911, to shoot at the club on weekends with your friends from the tech support division. Transferring that power and capacity into a survival model is hard for most, so while they have great tools, they lack the ability to leverage them for survival. On the other hand, a country boy who has taken game before with his 30-30 that's been passed down 3 generations, knows the value of a single shot, has taken life, and by nature of his status in society, is more likely to posses a survivors mentality. In other countries, its the guy with a bow or a .22 who is still eating when the civil war dies down. I've been to post-civil war arms markets, and there are a lot of nice fresh AKs and CZs in stacks.

If you could only grab one, and .22 was it, you're probably opting to not engage with anyone for months probably, stay below the radar, and leave a light footprint.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #95 on:** July 09, 2009, 07:51:06 AM »

Pretty astutue observation there TN... $:-\$ And I agreee with it... all except the part that says "The elderly and the invalid might not make it very long."

But maybe I'm being a little sensative since I'll be 64 in a few days...

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #96 on:** July 09, 2009, 07:53:43 AM »

64 old naw !

AtlLaw · « **Reply #97 on:** July 09, 2009, 07:57:04 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on July 09, 2009, 07:53:43 AM

naw !

It is to them young wimmins!

Never could understand why these sweet young things would want a boy when they could have a man... $:-\$

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #98 on:** July 09, 2009, 07:59:57 AM »

Wimmins what do they know ?

schoolmaster · « **Reply #99 on:** July 09, 2009, 09:06:07 AM »

After much pondering on this topic, I can't help but think back to the time when this country was pioneered. In those days the longhunters, explorers, mountain men carried a bigger bore gun either rifled or smooth and shot everything that needed shooting with that weapon. So maybe the 30-06 all weather Ruger bolt action would be the correct choice. Mine shoots into 1 inch with factory Remington ammo. This is one cartridge that I have found on shelves even in remote places.

mannyrock · « **Reply #100 on:** July 09, 2009, 09:32:37 AM »

But, mountainmen were not shooting small game with their .50 caliber Hawkins. Lead and powder were too precious and too heavy.

There were lots of .30 to .40 caliber light rifles among the mountainmen for smaller stuff.

So, if you choose a .30-06, you are back to two guns, because your going to have to team that up with either a .22 LR or a shotgun.

Now if I got to carry two guns, it would be a 9mm semi-auto pistol, and a .223 rifle with a .22LR chamber adapter.

Regards,
Mannyrock

teddy12b · « **Reply #101 on:** July 09, 2009, 10:07:50 AM »

Quote from: schoolmaster on July 09, 2009, 09:06:07 AM

This is one cartridge that I have found on shelves even in remote places.

Anytime I travel to hunt I always check the Mom & Pops gas station/grocery/general store for what ammo they carry. There always seems to be some kind of 30-06 on the shelf and that's one of the reasons I like it too! I don't think that you're automatically back to two guns if you chose the 30-06. I understand the arguement that you would completely destroy small game, but squirrels and rabbits do have heads that make a nice little target too. The 30-06 ammo does weigh a lot, but realistically it's not like people are going to be on the move constantly. At some point they're going to likely be setting up camp and could make a little hidden cache of anything surplus they don't need on them for the time being.

There's a good arguement for & against everything in this topic.

teamnelson · « **Reply #102 on:** July 09, 2009, 11:58:40 AM »

For the best of both worlds, you could get a chamber adapter in say .32 for your 30-06 which isn't as prevalent I know, but if you had a .32 pistol as a match you'd have bunnies to bear covered. I put a few .32 long swc downrange on Sunday, and out of a 10" barrel they were accurate to 50yds and punched holes through heavy cardboard.

I'd say this though, whatever ammo was on the shelves at Mom & Pops at zero hour won't be at zero+1. It'll be in my sack along with all the salt, beans and rice I can grab. And probably some premium hooch for medicinal purposes ... in the spirit of the mountainmen.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #103 on:** July 09, 2009, 12:04:18 PM »

ain't much a good nights sleep won't fix

one good shot when i can't sleep and next thing i know

its a bright new day

mannyrock · « **Reply #104 on:** July 09, 2009, 12:41:00 PM »

In a survival scenario, anything by way of ammo in a Mom & Pop store will be immediately stashed away and hidden by Mom & Pop, for themselves and their immediate family. And man, if you waste your .30-06 ammo trying to head-shot squirrels and rabbits, it ain't gonna last for long! :-) Buy a .22 LR rifle now, and two bricks of .22 ammo, to go with your .30-06, and its a moot point.

Best regards,

Mannyrock

Travis Morgan · « **Reply #105 on:** July 09, 2009, 04:44:01 PM »

Quote from: mannyrock on July 09, 2009, 09:32:37 AM

But, mountainmen were not shooting small game with their .50 caliber Hawkins. Lead and powder were too precious and too heavy.

There were lots of .30 to .40 caliber light rifles among the mountainmen for smaller stuff.

So, if you choose a .30-06, you are back to two guns, because your going to have to team that up with either a .22 LR or a shotgun.

Now if I got to carry two guns, it would be a 9mm semi-auto pistol, and a .223 rifle with a .22LR chamber adapter.

Regards,
Mannyrock

Yeah, when they wanted a rabbit or squirrel, they went to town and got a .22.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #106 on:** July 10, 2009, 03:06:05 AM »

still sat 308 with a 30 carbine adap.

pastorp · « **Reply #107 on:** July 10, 2009, 03:59:21 AM »

If you want a 308 or 30-06 for your mail hunting gun thats OK just get a 22revolver to carry as well.

There that was a easy fix.

Regards,

schoolmaster · « **Reply #108 on:** July 10, 2009, 01:29:04 PM »

OK I have done extensive reading on the firearms that the old timers carried i.e. mountain men, Lewis and Clark, Longhunters, from about the French and Indian war period up. All I can find pertaining to the mountain men besides their muzzleloading rifle in a larger caliber is that many of them prefered a shotgun for sudden night attacks and horse guard duty, and some of them carried pistols usually in holsters on their saddles for extra fire power. I do not profess to be an expert but can't find where they carried smaller caliber rifles to shoot small game with. Most of them were trappers and could catch small game without wasting powder and ball on them. The long hunters carried a primary gun, some were rifled and some were smooth, some of them carried muskets of various descriptions, and as the golden age of the Kentucky long rifle approached the calibers became smaller usually something around .38 Some of these adventurers carried pistols as well. It is amazing to me that the long hunters killed all manner of big game with these rifles in the early years when the frontier was still east of the Mississippi river. My sons and I have done several salt and pepper camping trips and on the short term a 22 rifle or a single shot shot gun were prefered. However we did not have the problem of defending ourselves from large animals or "survivors" If limited to one gun for all purposes, it must be of significant caliber to defend against the above and the ammo must be light enough to carry a sufficient quantity. The rifle must be easy to maintain and foolproof. I am still leaning toward a bolt action maybe a 223.

teamnelson · « **Reply #109 on:** July 10, 2009, 03:04:09 PM »

Quote

Most of them were trappers and could catch small game without wasting powder and ball on them.

Given that I have no clue how to make powder, primers and brass, this makes sense to me. Snares, traps, bow, sling are great, but I also don't know how to use those very well or make them. But I'm challenged now, to learn how so I can preserve my ammo until such time as I learn how to make more without a Midway catalog.

Folks in a crisis panic and strip the countryside of anything edible in a hurry. The smart animals are going to migrate away from the outburst of predators. The only thing left to shoot for most folks will be inedible, so apart from defense, the .22 will fill the pot with all the vermin you can hit.

I keep a chipmunk and a brick of shorts handy too. Might as well make everyone useful; put the kids to work filling the stewpot.

teamnelson · « **Reply #110 on:** July 10, 2009, 03:21:14 PM »

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,177692.msg1098849313.html#msg1098849313

Looks like you could still eat it.

pastorp · « **Reply #111 on:** July 10, 2009, 05:10:59 PM »

Maybe a bigbore airgun like lewis & Clark carried west with them is the answer. You only need lead balls and compressed air.

There are guys that hunt with these up to deer & hog size game and a couple of sourdoughs I've heard of in the artic use them for carabou.

Just a thought.

schoolmaster · « **Reply #112 on:** July 11, 2009, 05:10:26 AM »

Here's another twist. Col. Townsend Whelen made extended trips into the wilderness carrying a 1903 springfield 30-06. He worked diligently to develope a handload for small game that shot close to the sights at close range. He used a 150 grain full metal jacket bullet and 4759 for propellent. He carried a box or two of these loads to shoot small game with and carried only the one rifle. I read a lot of Jack O'Conners stuff and he prefered a .22 pistol to shoot grouse etc. for the pot when hunting in the far places. Now both of these men solved their small game problem successfully in two different ways. How about a .22 adapter for a .223 bolt rifle or a primer fired 22 cal pellet inserted in mouth of a 223 case? One thing trapping has going for it is that trap, snare, deadfall is out there working 24 hours a day. We get all romantic thinking of wandering over the land killing our food at will. But when it gets down and dirty, a wire snare will work. Ask the poachers in Africa. You can catch turkeys with a baited hook and line. Not very sporting or romantic but doable for about anyone.

Travis Morgan · « **Reply #113 on:** July 11, 2009, 11:55:59 AM »

I've heard of people using a .30 caliber roundball and, I believe, 5 gr. of Bullseye for a small game load. Out of a 22-26 inch barrel, it ought to be pretty quiet.

teamnelson · « **Reply #114 on:** July 11, 2009, 12:06:31 PM »

.311 roundball/45gr over 8.4 gr unique will give you 1000 fps in a 30-30. Buddy found it on the Internet said it works great, like a heavy .22. Once I get a handle on casting I want to try it. I'll bet there's a 30-06 load out there.

243dave · « **Reply #115 on:** July 11, 2009, 02:06:34 PM »

Heres a good read on reduced loads and cast bullets in several different calibers. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/small_charges.htm Dave

pastorp · « **Reply #116 on:** July 12, 2009, 07:08:06 AM »

243dave, That is a great article. Good enough I printed the whole thing and put it in my reference on loading hard to find info on calibers.

I have been wanting to experiment with reduced loads for grouse,ect. while hunting big game. I've shot the heads off a few with my 257weatherby but I know there is a better way.

Regards,

don heath · « **Reply #117 on:** July 26, 2009, 09:26:39 PM »

It is easier to make great reduced loads in rimmed cases- as noted above, you can use suitable buck shot in a .30-30. We used .32 balls in the .303 britt rifles with 5-8 grns MS200 behind them for 800-1000fps. Good enough for small game and shot to point of aim at 25m when the rifle was zeroed at 100m with regular ball.

The problem in rimless cases is that the case shrinks a little each time you use it with such loads, and after three or four fireings you get a headspace problem. With a rimmed round such as the 30-30 - who casers if the case shrinks- provided you mark the cases and never try to stick a full power load in them....

WD45 · « **Reply #118 on:** July 27, 2009, 04:47:08 AM »

When you talk about the mountain men and long hunters they were one gun people more due to they HAD to drag it and every thing they owned around with them everywhere they went and most did not have a permanent residence as we do. If they had a permanent residence they were gone from it for long periods of time. Most of them could only afford 1 gun and what I understand most of them actually carried smoothbores that could be loaded with buck or ball. I think the popular vision of what most people think about the old mountain men is pure hollywood.
If I had to limit myself to one gun then it would be a levergun in either 357 mag or 38-55. They are both easy to reload with a wide range of power and will take care of 2 legged critters with no problem. They can also be loaded with black powder if necessary. Most of us don't live in big bear country so I don't see the need for anything more. The other option would be a 12 ga with plenty of slugs and shot of various sizes. I would say the best option for most of us is a small array of guns. 1 shotgun, a rifle / pistol combo both chambered for the same large caliber pistol cartridge and a rifle / pistol combo in like 22LR or 22 MAG. If you are talking bout a situation where no amunition will be produced or be able to be obtained for who knows how long I think you better get a couple good flinters and learn to make them shoot. Heck they are making ammo now and I havn't been able to by even a box of 22LR for the last six months and there hasn't even been a real disaster yet. The local walmart finally got some 22 MAG and they would only sell me ONE box because of the limited amount they had.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #119 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:59:27 AM »

Flintlock ! nice idea