Author Topic: Before I call BS  (Read 2201 times)

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Offline Manitobahunter

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Before I call BS
« on: March 24, 2009, 03:02:14 PM »
I had coffee with a fella that has been known to stretch the truth.  Tells me he is shooting a 300 win mag, ok I believe that.  Then he says he is loading a 90gr bullet in it.  A 90gr .30 cal, my spidey sences are starting to tingle.  The next thing he tells me almost had coffee coming out my nose.  He says the bullets are leaving the barrel at over 5600fps.  Now I may not be the smartest guy reloading but I have never heard of any that would be close to this.  Let me know what you think, is it possible?  I don't think so but I have been wrong before.



        Cliff
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 03:18:42 PM »
Off the top of my head, I can only think of 100 Gr plinkers for the lightest 30cal bullet....

As for his velocity estimate.... I think its quite safe to say it too is exaggerated.  ::) ::)

It is a nice story thou....

CW
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Offline jager

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2009, 03:26:14 PM »
   Actually Sierra makes a 85gr RN and Hornady a 90gr .30 cal bullet; however, it is made for a 7.62X25 that will shoot them up to about 1700fps, not 5600fps. The companies selling these bullets point out they are not designed for loading in rifles.
   I have used .30 cal. 100gr "Plinker" bullets from Speer and Hornady at 1200 to 1500fps, that are designed for riles, with some success in a 30/30. Bullets this lightweight cannot handle velocities approaching 3000fps without losing their "cores" before they reach the target. I'd call B.S. on the 5600fps story (the fellow probably doesn't know what a chronograph is, much less own one.)  While I've witnessed a .220 Swift shoot over 4100fps, as well as a .204, I've never heard or seen a bullet driven faster in the last 50 years.
   I wouldn't buy gold or silver from this "preveyor of the fantastic"; and certainly not use any of his handloads :o.

Offline Varmint Hunter

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2009, 03:26:56 PM »
I'll call BS on this claim. While you can find 90gr, .308 bullets they are intended for the 30 carbine. I doubt that it is possible to get anywhere near 5,000 ft/sec from the .308 with a 90 grainer. Besides, the bullets would come apart (maybe while still in the bore) at a lot less velocity.

I read where a .308 Norma Mag was loaded to max pressure with a 55gr bullet. The max velocity was about 5,000 ft/sec. So it doesn't seem logical that a .308 win, with less case capacity, could launch a much heavier bullet @ greater speed.

Just my 2 cents

Offline Bornsouthern34

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2009, 03:28:34 PM »
I must say I was quite surprised to see the 300 Mag produce 3500 fps with a 110 gr bullet. Given that the max pressure listed in my data shows the 300 can handle as much as 63,800 psi with a 220 gr bullet, it may be realistic that you could get that 110 bullet over 4000 fps with a compressed powder charge. However, 5600 fps is not so feasible. I do not think the case would hold enough powder to push the bullet that fast. I would have to see the chrono for myself. Also, the other problem I see is that I have not found a manufacturer that produces a 30 cal bullet in 90 gr for that type of application. Ask him who makes it and research it for yourself. Lastly, the only 4000 fps standard round I know of comes from the 220 Swift.

Alliant Powder 4350  30 cal-110 gr  SIE  HP  71.6 gr  3,116 fps  79.5 gr  3,541 fps  55,600 psi  
"Common Sense IS NOT An Inherited Trait"

JT

Offline Varmint Hunter

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2009, 03:29:33 PM »
   Actually Sierra makes a 85gr RN and Hornady a 90gr .30 cal bullet; however, it is made for a 7.62X25 that will shoot them up to about 1700fps, not 5600fps. The companies selling these bullets point out they are not designed for loading in rifles.
   I have used .30 cal. 100gr "Plinker" bullets from Speer and Hornady at 1200 to 1500fps, that are designed for riles, with some success in a 30/30. Bullets this lightweight cannot handle velocities approaching 3000fps without losing their "cores" before they reach the target. I'd call B.S. on the 5600fps story (the fellow probably doesn't know what a chronograph is, much less own one.)  While I've witnessed a .220 Swift shoot over 4100fps, as well as a .204, I've never heard or seen a bullet driven faster in the last 50 years.
   I wouldn't buy gold or silver from this "preveyor of the fantastic"; and certainly not use any of his handloads :o.

I have seen velocities exceed 5,200 ft/sec using a 30gr bullet in the 22-243 Middlestead, but that's a whole different story.

Offline vanbuzen9

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2009, 03:34:48 PM »
A few points to consider:

-There are 90 grain .308 cal. bullets available.  Hornady makes a 90 gr. XTP for use in the 30 carbine.

-From the same hornady manual, they list 110 gr. vmax bullets at a max of 3700 fps in the 300 win mag.  

-I doubt your buddy is gaining 2000 fps by dopping just 20 grains of bullet weight.

Tell him those facts, and it may shut him up.....Or he may claim that he has some special wonder powder that he makes out back!   ;D

Offline Bornsouthern34

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2009, 03:39:32 PM »
There may be some wildcats out there pushing 5000+ but not the 300 mag. I think the concensus is in on this one.

B.S. all around.
"Common Sense IS NOT An Inherited Trait"

JT

Offline Bornsouthern34

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2009, 03:41:49 PM »
Did he try to sell you some ocean front property in Arizona too??????????
"Common Sense IS NOT An Inherited Trait"

JT

Offline buck460XVR

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2009, 03:44:21 PM »
Remember these? I think these were suppose to go almost 4000 outta a .308/'06. I still have a coupla '06 mags of the originals in the gun safe from predator hunting 30 years ago.


http://www.ammo-one.com/RemingtonAccelators.html
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Offline Bornsouthern34

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2009, 03:47:51 PM »
Buck460XVR,

Good call, I forgot about those. But 4000 is still a long way from 5600.
"Common Sense IS NOT An Inherited Trait"

JT

Offline Manitobahunter

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2009, 04:02:49 PM »
You have to know the guy.  You can usually know when the BS is about to start because his lips start to move.  He's full of sh     uh stories.  Another that got my attention was about his 17hmr but that's for another time.



       Cliff
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Offline v-man

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2009, 04:44:01 PM »
I've got a 30-30 with an 18" barrel that shoots a 170 gr bullet at 2400fps and another with a 20" barrel that shoots the same load at 2500fps. So I'm planning to build one with a 60" barrel so I can get 4500fps out of a 30-30. That'd be pretty fast, huh? Even better than a Weatherby.

Offline jhalcott

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2009, 04:50:14 PM »
THE 17 rEMINGTON IS ANOTHER FAST ONE.

Offline Tom W.

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2009, 12:30:29 AM »
Just put your rubber hip boots on and look around the room aimlessly  while whistling the theme for "Star Wars" or some such.....
Tom
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Offline smith85619

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2009, 01:47:29 AM »
I've been thinking about necking down some 50BMG and loading some .22 cal bullets in a new wildcat.  It should leave the barrel at around 12000fps. ;D
If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you.

Offline v-man

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2009, 03:49:26 AM »
Sorry Smith. I beat you to it and all I got was 11,950fps. Very disappointing. I'm going to take it on down to a .17cal. It'll be so fast the 'yote will drop before the primer gets dimpled. Hope I can find a 75 rd drum magazine for it.

Offline Steve P

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2009, 05:04:03 AM »
I have gotten close!  Got to 5400fps, but not 5600 in the 300 Win Mag.

I was using homemade bullets with J4 1.00" jackets and loading them with a small ww core.  Bullet weight was just over 75gr.   Ogive from that die I think is 6. 

I took my 300 Win Mag brass and necked it down to .22 caliber.  I then opened it back up so only about .030 of neck was back to 30 caliber.  This left kind of an hourglass shape right at the shoulder.  I put in 52 grains of Uneeque followed by 21 grains of 295.  The last little bit of powder had to be tamped in with an ice pick.  I seated my bullet where the boattail just filled up that hourglass area and the main body of the bullet was .030 into the brass. 

I lit these loads with a CCI BR 400 primer.  Because the bullet was so light, there wasn't a lot of recoil.  No more than my 45-70 with 610gr bullets. 

Anyway, I asked a buddy of mine if I could borrow his little chrony so I could see how fast I was pushing these loads.  Of course when he heard what I was loading, he had to come watch.  He is a cop so he brought his patrol car.  He looked at the loads and kind of laughed at me.  He thought I was nuts.  He would not even stay close to the bench when I fired the first shot.  He was sitting in his car.  I fired and the muzzle blast knocked his little chrony over and broke the glass window thingy.  Couldn't confirm the speed so I just shot a few more shots at the target.  First group was in there about .421" at a hundred yards.  One of the best groups I ever shot.  When I took the target down, I saw that the bullets had gone clean thru that old propane tank and cut that metal just like a wad cutter cuts paper. 

I went back to the car and showed my buddy the target and the broken glass think on his chrony.  He was mad about me breaking it, but was surprised when he saw my .241" group.   He said just for fun that he had been tracking my bullets on his radar.  Said per the computer they were coming out a few thousand miles an hour which computed right at 5400fps. 

He was really suprised when he looked at my brass.  Where that little hour glass shape was it was not almost perfectly straight.  That round had so much pressure in it that the shoulder and neck opened up until it was almost a straight wall case.  My buddy tried to see if a 45 bullet would fit.  It wouldn't quite fit, but his back-up 40S&W round fit right in.  We decided we would take all of my once fired 300 BS brass and use it in a 40x300 Encore barrel.  He thought it would be a little over-kill on white tailed elk.  I let him know I intended to use it on my next sasquatch hunt up in Canada.  It's been a couple of years since I got one of them and my jerky supply is running low.

Well I best get off of here.  I've got some errands to run and since the snow is gone, I can take my Ferrari in to have the studs taken off.

Have a good day!

Beal Sheeter   ::)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline smith85619

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2009, 05:18:31 AM »
no kidding, NASA has a gun that fires projectiles at supersonic speeds, we're talking 20-30,000fps, they use it to test the shuttle hull and spacesuit integrity.  It's not the type of gun that you can put a shoulder strap or bipod on though. :D
If at first you don't succeed, parachuting is not for you.

Offline ShadowMover

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2009, 08:06:00 AM »
Steve P I enjoyed your story. You had me going with the necked cases and dual powders. Very nicely done ;-)

Something to remember when pushing bullets; the energy in the bullet goes up with the square of the velocity change. E=1/2m x V squared. The gist of all this is it takes a lot of energy going from 2000 fps to 4000 fps. Since the velocity changes from 2000 to 4000 it doubles (2) . 2 Squared is 2x2 or 4 times the energy. That energy has to come from somewhere. Going from 4000 fps to 5600 fps is 5600/4000 = 1.4 times as fast The energy changes with the SQUARE of the speed so 1.4 x1.4 = 1.96 times the energy is required. Where does this come from?  It has to come from the powder which doesn't have as much time to burn in when pushing a bullet out faster. Some rough linear estimates follow. If a bullet starts at 0 fps at the instant of firing and leaves at 2000 fps in a 2 foot barrel it will average a speed of 1000 fps for 2 feet or spend .002 seconds in the barrel. If it leaves at 4000 fps it would spend .001 second in the barrel, spending half the time getting 4 times the energy from the powder. It gets tougher and tougher to get more energy. When you go to 5600 fps the average speed through the barrel is 2800 fps meaning it takes 1/2800 of a second to travel a foot or 2/2800 sec ( .000715 sec) to go two feet and burning enough powder to give it 5600/2000 =2.8 ^2 =7.84 times the energy. Something has to give here. You can cut the energy by cutting the weight of the bullet but you are still going to require much more powder and pressure.

Sorry for the long winded post. I hope I didn't make any math errors.

Offline Manitobahunter

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2009, 08:38:25 AM »
SteveP

Are you related to Will?  Just to let you know the Sasqautch season has been closed up here.  But the Saber toothed rabbit, now there's some good eating.


      Cliff
Shoot straight

Offline Bornsouthern34

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2009, 09:09:33 AM »
Looks like there is as much B.S. on this post as your friend has. I think I will just stick to shooting those 12 foot jumping timber rattlers we have down here.
"Common Sense IS NOT An Inherited Trait"

JT

Offline huntswithdogs

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 09:37:24 AM »
I've shot 110gr HP from a 300WM and a 300Ultramag. No chrono here though, so I can't say for sure the speed, but the loads were from one of my Manuals. I expected the bullets to not make it to the target without blowing up, but they made it! At impact on the paper/cardboard, they splattered.

Sometimes, if ya got somebody who's known for extending the truth a bit, is fun to just sit back and see how far they'll go. Some of these folks should try writing a book. Most could be best sellers!



Oh...I work with one or 2 of these folks.



HWD

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2009, 10:45:23 AM »
i  know  this guy  that went to sniper school

he tells me the army  is getting 5000 fps  out of  the  308win/ 7.62x51

i  think  he  knows  better  than  us  so it  is intirely possable  to get 5600 out of 300mag

he said  they have to replace the guns after  a hundred rounds  at that speed

he  said  he will get me some next time he is up  there visiting

[you  did say this was a BS thread...i am telling the truth about  him....no  i don't beleive him}
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 10:51:04 AM »
Don't know if it could be done or not , doubt it but after O getting elected i stopped saying couldn't happen .
Anyway could a bullet made for the 30 carbine or a 32 handgun survive 5600 fps ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2009, 10:53:09 AM »
i  think  the  416  barrett had to be made from solid brass  to keep  the cintrifical  forces  from slinging it apart
when drugs are outlawed only out laws will have drugs
DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO STOP A DEMOCRAT
OBAMACARE....the biggest tax hike in the  history of mankind
free choice and equality  can't co-exist
AFTER THE LIBYAN COVER-UP... remind any  democrat voters ''they sat and  watched them die''...they  told help to ''stand down''

many statements made here are fiction and are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as a description of actual events.
no one is encouraged to do anything dangerous or break any laws.

Offline v-man

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2009, 03:08:27 PM »
I tried to explain about my 60" 30-30 barrel and my 50BMG/.17 and all you guys keep talking about the BS on this thread. I'm starting to think no one believes me. Steve, don't be naive. Some of these skeptics seem to be mocking your inspirational story, too.

Offline Bornsouthern34

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2009, 04:32:36 PM »
No mocking here. However, I am a realist. I own an AR-10, 308, 30-06, 300 mag, 270 WSM, 243, AR-15, and several others. I was helping the old man reload as soon as I was able to sit in the chair by myself. When I was a teenager, I did everything but blow up my 30-06 experimenting and never got over 3500 fps. When I see it with my own eyes, then I will believe. To say that you can get 500 fps more than the book? Maybe? To get more than 2000 fps than the book? Doubtful. Manufacturers have gone to great lengths and expense to get the fastest, flatest trajectory possible out of firearms. If 5600 fps was reasonably possible, don't you think they would be catering to the varmint world? Back to one of my previous post, a case will only hold so much powder. Powder only produces so much pressure. I just don't think the math is there to back up 5600 fps even with a 75 gr bullet.

Also, how am I supposed to believe that a .421 spread at 100 yds was gotten using a .22 cal bullet out of a .30 cal barrel. A little loose don't you think?

Again, would have to see it.

"Common Sense IS NOT An Inherited Trait"

JT

Offline Tom W.

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2009, 10:42:47 PM »
Oh Ye of Little faith...... ;D ::)
Tom
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I really like my handguns!

Offline v-man

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Re: Before I call BS
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2009, 11:10:12 PM »
I understand a little about numbers and physics and powder capacity and all that stuff but what about the "power of positive thinking"?