Mark this day down...

[WylieKy]

Now, on one hand you want to decriminalize prostitution and drugs in America,,yet on the other hand you want to institute rather harsh Draconian punishments for those that deviate from the path...

Exactly.  Moral crime=crime between Man and God.  Let God take care of it.  Violent crime=crime between men.  Let Man take care of it.  When it comes to violent crime, ESPECIALLY premeditated violent crime, the penalties should be fast and harsh.  So, instead of holding society as a whole responsible for the actions of a crazed psycho child molesting heroine rapist, the crazed psycho child mosesting heroine rapist is held responsible for his own actions, and held HARSHLY accountible at that.

People do make mistakes and can continue to lead productive lives after making said mistake.  That is why I put so much weight on the "premediated" portion of this. There will always be crimes of passion and desperation.  What needs to be harshly and immediatly punished is when someone plans to commit an act in cold blood.

[WylieKy]

Wylie...fasicist germany in the 1930's was racked with drug abuse (mass quantities of cocaine) and lifestyles  bordering on depravity....all legal. Then nazi facist went to town with severe and swift measures to correct behavior and lifestyles that nearly matched nihilistism and depravity they were against.

I have to be honest, I'm not sure what you mean by this... Not being a smart A$$, I would just like a little clarification.

I would suggest a tour off duty in Detroit, East LA. or NYC for firsthand observations...

I spent my middle teenage years (13-16) in Washing DC and Chicago.  I've spent some time in NYC and New Orleans, and one of my best friends has been in NO since 1997.  I am quite familiar with the way people live and the lengths they will go to for drugs (I have been robbed at gun point 2x's).  Again, this all happened while drugs were illegal.

Logical extensions of your views on drug legalization, and as indicated by other Libertarian views, include,,,open borders/open immigration, free trade, no speed limits, free and all access to any weaponry, and so forth. Leastwise, I gather these are but a few Libertarian ideas. If you have children would you allow them to run loose and unsupervised in the candy store..? They tried this with banksters and financial types...letting them run unprohibited and unregulated, and in 10 or 12 years they have nearly bankrupted the country or worse....costing me and alot of people much money.

I do not subscribe to any prewritten set of views, Libertarin, Conservative, etc....  As I have said before I call a spade a spade.  I AM probably more Libertarian than anything else, but open borders and immigration is pure idiocy, I do agree with free trade, speed limits are OK, and I've already discussed the free acces to weaponry in the thread.  To be perfectly hontest, I do struggle with Meth, Heroine, Crack, and PCP being legal.  These substances have a virtually 100% negative impact and are nearly impossible to use recreationally.  However, if we legalize them and make them cheaper maybe the problem will just take care of itself.  I think that after legalization there would be a quick spike of OD's and usage that would level off pretty quickly and natural selection took it's course.

[SHOOTALL]

sorta death by freedom ?

[WylieKy]

sorta death by freedom ?

Yeah!  I can't think of a better way to go...

Seriously, we have a choice.  Big Brotherish policies with extream consequences (aka China, Iran, N. Korea) or legalization and holding people responsible for their own actions.  Keep in mind that even in China, Iran, and N. Korea, drugs are still available.  The problem with tightening down on drugs is that the harder you get, the harder the criminal response. 

I have heard a lot of people saying "Don't legalize drugs."  I have not heard any proposals to fix our problem or what they think should be done.  I have also not heard anyone say that what we ARE doing is working.   I have a couple of associates that are LEO and they all acknowledge that our system is FUBAR.  Are there any LEO reading this with any input??

[SHOOTALL]

the truth is when drug testing is used there are ways around it often times , have seen it happen . I know a welder that takes all the test for his group . You see its hard to find clean welders . The bosses know but have to go along or they have no welders . I used welders but it happens in all trades . These are the ones who use and can still function . I can't begin to count the ones that can't . The ones our tax dollars go to . You might cut the cost on one end but will only shift it to some other aspect of the problem .
I wish i knew the ansewer , maybe it is to offer a better future , not mid-night basketball .

[jcn59]

SSRI's replace the alcohol, pot, etc., that people would self-medicate with, then many of them go on to lead responsible lives.

[WylieKy]

So you think crack, meth, pcp dust, LSD, STP..may not be good to let loose...?  What are the effects of somebody on serotonin uptake inhibitor drugs (about 95 million prescriptions annually in the USA..the most prescribed drug) who self medicates with pot, or even meth with alcohol..?  Anybody know..?

Serotonin uptake inhibitors are basically low yield X (MDMA).  There is a drug out called motorola that is a mix of X (seratonin updatke inhibitor/dopamine producer) and Meth (seratonin producer/dopamine producer.)  This is nasty stuff that will burn you up and burn you out quick.  I had a buddy that tried it and got hooked for a few months.  I had to help him get though some nasty stuff with some nasty people.  However, once he decided to quit it he quit it, with help from friends and family.   


Again, a lot of the manufactured drugs are...grey for me.  Most of the ones that grow in the ground eg..pot, coke, opium, hash can all be used recreationally (with the major exception of heroin).  X and acid are borderline, Crack, PCP, Motorolla, Meth, etc.... are very dangerous.  On one hand I belive a person should be free to put whatever they want in their bodies, but these drugs are to pot what a tank is to a hunting rifle.  Maybe outlaw production but not posession?? However, then you are still stuck with the underground criminal element (the nasty people I was referring to above). 

[MGMorden]

sorta death by freedom ?

Give me Liberty or give me death ...

[45-70.gov]

So you think crack, meth, pcp dust, LSD, STP..may not be good to let loose...?  What are the effects of somebody on serotonin uptake inhibitor drugs (about 95 million prescriptions annually in the USA..the most prescribed drug) who self medicates with pot, or even meth with alcohol..?  Anybody know..?

Serotonin uptake inhibitors are basically low yield X (MDMA).  There is a drug out called motorola that is a mix of X (seratonin updatke inhibitor/dopamine producer) and Meth (seratonin producer/dopamine producer.)  This is nasty stuff that will burn you up and burn you out quick.  I had a buddy that tried it and got hooked for a few months.  I had to help him get though some nasty stuff with some nasty people.  However, once he decided to quit it he quit it, with help from friends and family.   


Again, a lot of the manufactured drugs are...grey for me.  Most of the ones that grow in the ground eg..pot, coke, opium, hash can all be used recreationally (with the major exception of heroin).  X and acid are borderline, Crack, PCP, Motorolla, Meth, etc.... are very dangerous.  On one hand I belive a person should be free to put whatever they want in their bodies, but these drugs are to pot what a tank is to a hunting rifle.  Maybe outlaw production but not posession?? However, then you are still stuck with the underground criminal element (the nasty people I was referring to above). 

guns  are very dangerous
you  beleive in freedom       or  you don't

give  me  liberty........even  if it causes someone  elses death

[jcn59]

My primary work is in the mental health field and of the many people I have seen who take SSRIs, I have seen none of these negative side effects. (ZERO).  Perhaps some of you spend too much time with Readers Digest and I suspect others are content to just invent stories out of thin air.

There are no addictive qualities to SSRIs.

TM7:  The stories you hear from addicts aren't necessarily valid.  You have to consider the source and rely more heavily on scientific juornals.

May God help you.

[ironglow]

  Met a fellow one time who insisted on beating himself over the head with a hammer.

  When I inquired as to the rationale behind this destructive habit...he replied;... "because it feels so good when I quit !"

   Works for some folks I guess..but I  can live better without it !

[WylieKy]

My primary work is in the mental health field and of the many people I have seen who take SSRIs, I have seen none of these negative side effects. (ZERO).  Perhaps some of you spend too much time with Readers Digest and I suspect others are content to just invent stories out of thin air.

There are no addictive qualities to SSRIs.

TM7:  The stories you hear from addicts aren't necessarily valid.  You have to consider the source and rely more heavily on scientific juornals.

May God help you.

I was referring to motorolla, which is a combo of X and Meth and not a prescribed medication.  Look it up.  X is not addictive in the normal  sense but meth sure is.  X is also a SSRI and although it doesn't cause physical withdrawls like opiates over use or misuse can cause a person to just stop feeling good about anything because the excess of seratonin and dopamine burn out the recptors.  Since you are in the mental health field, you should know about MDMA (X.) 

I'm not a medical expert, but I would think that the legal SSRI's, if misused, would have a similar effect. I'll have to look it up.

[PeculiarSatyr]

Logical extensions of your views on drug legalization, and as indicated by other Libertarian views, include,,,open borders/open immigration, free trade, no speed limits, free and all access to any weaponry, and so forth. Leastwise, I gather these are but a few Libertarian ideas. If you have children would you allow them to run loose and unsupervised in the candy store..? They tried this with banksters and financial types...letting them run unprohibited and unregulated, and in 10 or 12 years they have nearly bankrupted the country or worse....costing me and alot of people much money.
..TM7

Tell me the logical extension of your views on drug prohibition?  You're obviously for the government being able to tell us what is right.  It's obvious that thousands die per year needlessly because of alcohol, firearms, fatty foods, motor vehicles.  You'd obviously think the government would be justified in alcohol prohibition, national firearms ban, regulated manditory diet, manditory public transportation with no individual ownership of motor vehicles, ETC.

Hyperbole can be used on both sides of an arguement.

[45-70.gov]

  Met a fellow one time who insisted on beating himself over the head with a hammer.

  When I inquired as to the rationale behind this destructive habit...he replied;... "because it feels so good when I quit !"

   Works for some folks I guess..but I  can live better without it !

i  noticed  you have a hammer in your avitar

[WylieKy]

I'm not a medical expert, but I would think that the legal SSRI's, if misused, would have a similar effect. I'll have to look it up.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/serotonin-syndrome/DS00860/DSECTION=causes

Yep, overuse of SSRI's does the exact same thing as overuse of MDMA(X), LSD, and PCP.



I did a bit of thinking last night and although it is a hard decision, I think I still have to follow the "death by fredom" credo... I also changed my signature, see below.

[SHOOTALL]

death by freedom = cost to all !

[WylieKy]

death by freedom = cost to all !

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Benjamin Franklin

[SHOOTALL]

in his day they went to war over taxes ! In this day i just want laws to be cost effective and consitutional.

[Beers]

in his day they went to war over taxes ! In this day i just want laws to be cost effective and consitutional

So then you're all for legalization? Great to hear!

[JimFromTN]

Netherlands has lower crime primarily for the reason that they have a very in tact social safety net...healthcare, services, unemployment, and nobody would ever be kicked out of their home for inability to pay due to unforseen circumstances. Decriminalizing all the activities you mention, and others, certainly takes the burden of police and affects the crime statistics positively. Still,,,I would not want to live in Netherlands and they do have their problems.

That sounds awful.  How can they live that way?

Wylie...1930's Germany was a decadent and depraved place to be. A ruling foreign elite wanted it that way as Germany suffered from reparations and native Germans were pretty much driven down and enslaved and led to depravities.. The famous cabaret lifestyle over flowed with drugs, homosexuality, and about any 'moral' depravity of the time, all leading to the reactionary social democratic party coming to power under the banner of cleansing Germany and rehabilitating the German people back to control their country. The higher ideals of the German volk and reich later gave way to extremist views and actions and the rest is histroy.

Are you talking about the current day Washington DC?  I remember something about Karl Rove frequenting gay bars in DC.  Rove admitted that he did it but not because he was gay but because he enjoyed the conversation.  Yeah...  Germany in the 30's actually sounds like the United States during the 20's and 30's.  Didn't Woodrow Wilson pretty much run a brothel out of the white house?

How come we never hear about people prostituting themselves or robbing people for alcohol or tobacco?  They are both addictive.  They say its harder to quit smoking than it is to quit heroine.  You also never hear about gang violence over alcohol, at least not since they legalized it.  

[SHOOTALL]

No , I'm for freedom for all and yours stops where mine begins and mine stops where yours begins . If you do things that cost my taxes to go up with out benifit to me only so you can hurt yourself HELL NO I AIN"T FOR IT !

[WylieKy]

If you do things that cost my taxes to go up with out benifit to me only so you can hurt yourself HELL NO I AIN"T FOR IT !

Do you have any idea what the cost to arrest, prosecut AND defend, rehabilitate, and imprision an addict and/or dealer is? Do you know what the DEA by itself costs? If you are worried about supporting and/or raising their childeren...we already do it. 


Seriously, if that is what is holding you back we'll have a convert as soon as you check into those numbers. 


EDIT: I looked up some quick #'s, and i'm going to lean toward the cheap side.
-DEA 2009 budget: $2,974,400,000

-average of 10,816 new drug imprisionments per year at $27,500 with a 5 year average sentance (Don't forget many states have 3 strikes and that 5 years turns into 55.): $14,872,000,000 per year.

Just these two adds up to $17,846,400,000 per year to the US taxpayers, and these are just the Federal #'s.  This doesn't include State and local. 

These are the number I coudn't find:
-How much does it cost to arrest, prosecute, and defend, and jail (we almost always do both) a suspect?  (maybe Dukiller knows?)

-How much are we paying to support the children of the imprisioned men and women?  I'd say that will take out a sizeable chunk of the "If we legalize it we'll have to support the children" bit.

-How much does the average town or city spend to jail inmates who are not convicted, and how much could the cut LEO because of decreased crime?

[ironglow]

  45/70;
   So I have a hammer in my avatar..and you have a smoking gun barrel in yours...so ? Hammers are for useful purposes also..same as guns..

[PeculiarSatyr]

If you do things that cost my taxes to go up with out benifit to me only so you can hurt yourself HELL NO I AIN"T FOR IT !

Do you have any idea what the cost to arrest, prosecut AND defend, rehabilitate, and imprision an addict and/or dealer is? Do you know what the DEA by itself costs? If you are worried about supporting and/or raising their childeren...we already do it. 


Seriously, if that is what is holding you back we'll have a convert as soon as you check into those numbers. 

Someone already crunched the numbers for him.  I'm not sure why taxes would go up because the government was saving 10-14 billion a year.  This is just the cost of Marijuana prohibition too.
http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/

[SHOOTALL]

Did the factor in the lost pay for judges , lawyers and jailers not to mention police ?

[PeculiarSatyr]

Did the factor in the lost pay for judges , lawyers and jailers not to mention police ?

If it didn't, I'd assume it also didn't take into account lost pay to drug lords, gangs, and dealers.

I'd imagine there would still be crime to keep the justice/corrections systems in business.  If there wasn't enough crime, thats a good thing...right?

[ironglow]

 Why have none of the people screaming for freedom here, not commented upon my suggestion concerning the use of illegal substances. I did not suggest limiting anyone's freedom, but rather a program of education & stigmatization ? If people who are "users" were stigmatized for doing so and they and others educated upon why the stuff is called "dope" and what they could better afford by "kicking the substance"..perhaps some would walk away from the "crutch" habits.
   
  Worked well with one weed, why not another ? Although I am not completely in favor of the strong stigmatization of people who have legally used tobacco for many years have been subjected to, the reduction in tobacco use is surprising, to say the least.
 
  Years ago, when there was a stigma against certain things such as pregnancy out of wedlock, welfare leeching, adultry, cheating at sports, indiscriminate breeding, cursing in public etc....there was much less of it ! Seems we could learn by history...

[Beers]

IG, I have commented on your suggestion... It's just not a new idea, it's something we already have. Drugs are already demonized in our schools, have been for years.. The DARE program, our health class textbooks, PSAs - years and years of taxpayer funded government propaganda...

From very early childhood on, every child in this country is repeatedly told about the "evils" of marijuana, cocaine, and other illegal drugs as well as alcohol and tobacco. People who use drugs are branded "stupid", "losers" and "low-lifes" responsible for doing all manner of harm to themselves, their families and society in general. Our public schools, TV commercials, advertisements in video games, even the cartoons they grow up watching - All spout a constant stream of anti-drug sentiment.

It's already difficult to get a decent job without a drug test... You can win 14 Olympic gold medals and hold 7 world records and still lose most of your sponsors for being busted smoking pot. Even 'ol Rush lost a lot of listeners over his prescription drug abuse - even among a demographic notorious for ignoring the foibles of it's champions. How much more stigmatized can drugs be? What else do you suggest?

[ironglow]

  All those things may be happening, but not enough perhaps. I am not about to say to young people; "go ahead and mess your head up with anything you wish, and I won't care if you kill innocent people, destroy our society and a multitude of other things..the non-addicted folks will just have to learn to take a joke !"
  I am not convinced that the "demonization" is that complete. I have heard some HS kids joke about how their teachers boasted about how they smoked the whacky-weed  and had a good laugh about it !
   Perhaps coupling drug offenses with loss of govt bennies (which many of them are on) may help. Perhaps it is time for a little "tough love" and I mean tough.
   Our stupid governor from our "Vampire State" doesn't want welfare recipients to be required to take a drug test. Oh great! The hard-working people who sre taxed to death to cover their welfare must pass such a test..
  May be time to look at how society handled such rebellious zombies a couple hundred years ago..there evidently weren't many then.

[45-70.gov]

most  jobs  are  un available with out passing a drug  test

welfare, scolarships, public housing,  all  should  be out of reach  with out passing a drug test

and  make that a tobaco  test  to

better  yet  just abolish  all  but scolarships.......then  base them on scolastic acheivemnt  not poverty

how  about  if  our cought comitting a crime and test positive  for drugs
its assumed  you supporting a drug addiction and  drug  addiction  seems  to be hereditary
you get nuetered  the 3rd  time

in  my  life  i  have  seen  more  lives  ruined by  the judicial  system  than  the drug use

i  had a freind   KILLED  by  an under cover  cop
just  to prove  he was  not an under cover  cop
that  is you tax money  at  work
i  am  sure the  nark is drawing a pension  now  and  my friend  is still  dead
he  never  raised  kids ,grew  old and had a life  like we  did

and  yes  i have  seen  many  just  choose  to ruin they  lives...it  was  their  choise
no  one  is murdered  by choise

death by freedom = cost to all !

death by free  = the cost  of freedom

loss  of  freedom = cost  to all