Mark this day down...

[Beers]

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to compare our 2nd Amendment rights with the legalization of drugs. It was just a handy way to display the flawed logic you constantly hear from those that support the drug war.

IG, like you say, if everyone simply stopped using drugs there would be no drug problem. Hope you didn't spend too much time coming up with that one...  That, however, is never going to happen - no matter how tough you make drug laws. There will ALWAYS be demand for drugs. As long as they are illegal, enterprising criminals will go to them to turn a profit.

The "war on drugs" has been from it's inception a complete and compound failure. It's done nothing to solve the problem it was intended to address, and has created major problems that didn't exist beforehand. Our drug policy and it's direct consequences have damaged or destroyed more lives and done more harm to our society than the very things it was crafted to eradicate. It has been incredibly wasteful of taxpayer dollars, American's freedoms and real human lives.

I truly don't understand how any rational American can continue to support it.

[ironglow]

Peculiar;
  One flaw in your idea; if the govt taxed drugs extremely heavy, as they are starting to do with tobacco, that opens the door for smugglers..result, same as we have now.
  My puzzlement is why anyone in their right mind would even dabble in mind bending/destroying drugs. Of course, many claim that since alcohol is legal, some other form of mind bender should be made legal. As a person who uses none of the above, such a suggestion sounds like someone saying; " since abortion is legal, we should make killing babies of less than 1 year of age legal also". We have all lived long enough to recognize "slippery slope logic"...next would be euthanasia of the "unfit" etc.
   Again, if you look at my thread opener, you will see that I did not even suggest any "gubmint" interference, but we as a people and as individuals should have character enough to clearly see that playing around with illegal, mind bending drugs is not only a pattern of weakness, and a careless thing to do when we have use of guns, automobiles or any device that could hurt others. ...And we must be ready to admit that whenever we patronize any business, be it a hardware, food store or car dealer.. we are enabling that business to continue operating. In this case, it is the murderous cartels. We should be men enough to draw our own "line in the sand".
  Thus anyone that uses such substances is a customer of these "businesses" that are undermining our nation and thus should be considered as lacking character and an appropriate social stigma should be applied. Attaching a stigma can be a good thing..

[MGMorden]

Peculiar;
  One flaw in your idea; if the govt taxed drugs extremely heavy, as they are starting to do with tobacco, that opens the door for smugglers..result, same as we have now.

Alcohol is heavily taxed (last I read around 45% of the cost of most spirits is taxes).  While moonshining still exists as a way of avoiding those taxes, the level of crime surrounding the practice is nowhere near the Al Capone era.  Simple reason is that safety and consistency is worth some money.  If there is a safe and legal way to obtain something then a lot of people would be willing to turn to that instead, even if it does cost a bit more.  As well, any illegal trading outside of the system would have to curb their behavior.  With a legal source to compete with they can't do the same heavy handed stuff they used to, because the worse they make their environment the more incentive they give their customers to turn to the legal source. 

 My puzzlement is why anyone in their right mind would even dabble in mind bending/destroying drugs. Of course, many claim that since alcohol is legal, some other form of mind bender should be made legal. As a person who uses none of the above, such a suggestion sounds like someone saying; " since abortion is legal, we should make killing babies of less than 1 year of age legal also". We have all lived long enough to recognize "slippery slope logic"...next would be euthanasia of the "unfit" etc.

Slippery slope is one of the logical fallacies detailed in logics.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope It's not seen as a valid line of reasoning.

This'll be my last post on the subject as I don't think we're ever going to convince anyone of a different viewpoint, but remember guys, gun ownership is declining.  Has been for years.  It will likely continue to do so.  We can either have two systems that we push for a) Things that don't directly and inherently harm another individual (ie, victimless crimes) are generally left up to individual choice.  or b) The group in power scrambles to outlaw everything that is not their social norm.  This can be drugs, guns, prostitution, eating meat, driving SUV's, or whatever.

Many here fight for gun rights while still fighting for government style B.  It's short sighted. If we go down that road and give the government that power, then it's only a matter of time before the tide turns and then it's our turn.  Everyone's morals are different, and when the government is allowed to legislate morality we all lose, eventually.

[Beers]

Great example, because really - cigarette smuggling is going to be a big problem   Considering the fact that right now, high grade marijuana rivals the price of gold per ounce, the government could tax the living heck out of it - and it would still be cheaper than buying illegally grown and distributed pot. And the money would go to Uncle Sam, as opposed to some Central American drug lord.

And as to "slippery slope logic", apparently you've not been around long enough... Slippery slope logic is faulty. Look it up, it's one of the most prevalent logical fallacies. And amazingly, you've provided excellent proof of that in your own post - Abortion has been legal for 35 years now, and I've never heard any suggest that killing anyone under the age of 1 should be legal as well.

I don't personally have any use for drugs either, I have much better things to spend my money on, as well as far better ways to spend my time. However, I was a teen in the 90's - I've tried just about everything - really the only exceptions are crack, heroin and PCP. Despite all that I maintained a 3.8 gpa or above, grew up, accepted responsibilities and I'm now a productive, taxpaying member of society raising kids of my own. I was a pretty well behaved kid, no drug I ever tried changed that. No amount of intoxication or illegal experimentation changed who I was or my ideas of right and wrong, and believe me - If you've not eaten magic mushrooms or tried LSD, you've no notion of what "altered consciousness" can mean. In fact, those are the only "crimes" I've ever committed. They didn't harm me, they didn't harm society or anyone else around me.

Drugs don't ruin people, they make their own decisions. When speaking of addicts, your speaking of a type of person - if not "insert drug x here" then it would be some other substance or pattern of behavior. Drugs won't turn an otherwise good, responsible person into a worthless addled addict. Even under the influence of drugs, alcohol or what have you - people are still responsible for their own actions. I've tried no drug that disengages the conscience - If you're scum on drugs my guess is that you're scum sober too. If you're a good, productive, conscientious person to start with, drugs aren't going to change that.

Drug use already has a very negative stigma in our society, but no amount of stigmatization, legislation or wasted tax money are going to stop people from using drugs. There will ALWAYS be a market for recreational drugs, until we take control of their distribution away from the criminals, the "cure" will continue to be worse than the disease.

[ironglow]

  How many times..1,2,3,4 or more I said not "gubmint" interference, but personal perseverence..stay away from such needless possible addictions and such as do indulge in them.

  MG;
    Did you read the point-counter-point of the Wiki article ? As we all should know, Wiki is not an authoritative encyclopedia but rather a posting of opinions. For the argument against slippery slope, there are more under "discussion" that don't agree with the poster's summation. Whether one calls it "slippery slope", "causal relationship" or some other term, the situation does exist. It has been shown that most hard core chemicaly wasted people started with a simple puff on a worthless weed.
  One can argue that "safety and consistency" in an addictive substance is worth something..hardly if the original substance is worthless.

    I guess I'll simply say, "Real men don't need a chemical crutch".

  Beers;
 Apparently you haven't been around long enough ! there was a recent case (Chicago I believe) where a child born live was killed "because the 'mother' wanted it dead in the first place.
   A bill was presented in the last congress to prevent killing live born children either by intent or neglect. Now our new president wants the newly constituted congress to present him with a bill allowing the killing of such babies...he may well get it ! Compare that attitude to 40 years ago..the slippery slope is indeed slippery !  http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=569458&page=1

  Look what has happened in the Netherlands..started with assisted suicide if the patient wanted it. Then, assisted suicide if the patient's family wants it; then assisted suicide if the doctor decides it. At what point does suicide become murder when it is decided by other than the patient ?
  No my friend, the slippery slope is alive and well..just look at our society's moral condition over the last 3-4 decades..  http://www.lifenews.com/nat4515.html

[Beers]

Personal perseverance is great, I agree with you on that point. I don't use drugs, nor do the vast majority of us on this site - I'm just saying that you're never going to get everyone to hold themselves to the same standards to which you hold yourself. It's no solution to anyone but you.

About the abortion case, I was able to find three cases that fit the description - In all three there was a criminal investigation and charges were brought forward. It's not legal anywhere in the US to kill a live born child, intentionally or through neglect. Bad things happen, it doesn't follow that they are now considered acceptable.

The live birth abortion bill was nothing more than a divisive piece of legislative prestidigitation. "Live birth abortion" is already illegal everywhere, a bill to ban it was and is as necessary as a new piece of legislation banning murder, which is exactly what it was. Voting against an unnecessary bill is not the same as voting for it's opposite. If you can show me a bill proposing that we allow the murder of live born babies, do so; I'll start writing my representatives.

How many times.... 1,2,3,4 or more I said - people make their own decisions. You can make yours, I can make mine. No one can make anyone's decisions for them, and like it or not, there will always be people who decide to use drugs. In a perfect, ideal world your idea might have merit, or a possibility of stemming the problem. Unfortunately our world is far from ideal... And we need a realistic, effective solution to the problem.

I can think of no possible way to eradicate drug use, but we could certainly do without all the disastrous consequences of our failed attempts to do so.

[45-70.gov]

Something I don't get...Most of the people on this forum seem to love freedom.  "Live Free or Die" going all around.  At the same time people think the government should be allowed to restrict freedom when it comes to drugs.  Seems a bit off to me is all.

Also, the benefits of ending drug prohibition seem to outweigh the risks. Government could tax the hell out of drugs.  Save millions on justice/corrections.  Druglords and gangs would be out of business when it comes to drugs (nobody is going to go to a shady drug dealer when they can get a pharmaceutical grade product from walmart).

Alcohol prohibition created a lot of crime just like modern drug prohibition does.

Also, marijuana seems to be a much safer drug than ETOH.  Sure there will be people ODing on heroin or whatever, but people OD on alcohol every day.

well  put
let me add to that
this land of the free have more people in prison per capita than ANY other country
half the people in prison are in for drug related crimes
the jails  are full...dangerous people are being released to make room for dopers

we can't  equate drug freedom  to  gun freedom???
the original  machine gun  and sawed off shot gun laws  came out of the crime associated with prohabition

ANY DRINKER THAT SOPPORTS DRUG LAWS  IS  A HIPOCRIT

i have seem many die as a result of drug use
freedom isn't free
some died  for  it .... others died because of it


some  drink ... but oppose others choise  in drugs
others  say maryjuana   is  ok  but .... not hard  drugs....ect  ect
where guns are concerned  some say  revolvers  ok....but  not  your auto
10  rounds  are  ok  ....but  not 15
what  happened  to  you decide  what  make  you happy

wow '' pursuit  of happiness''  is that in  the constitution some where



well  do  you want  a school bus driver  on cocain??  ect....ect
i  won't  even bother to respond  to a moron with a post  like  that
ok  but  quickly
do  you ant a drunk school bus driver??     no  lets out law alcohol  so that can  NEVER  happen  who care ho rich  it makes bootleggers

[jimster]

It's none of my business what people put in their bodies,  and it should be the same for government.  They have picked out what they could not control and regulated it before, might as well open the door and tax the heck out of some other stuff, the heavy duty dealers will be out of luck just like the booze runners were.  If someone wants to do something stupid like snort stuff, or shoot stuff, or drink themselves to death on regulated booze instead of excersise and eating right...I could care less.  People eat themselves to death too.  I try to take a little care of myself and get some excersise, I have not bought a pack of smokes in years, but I do roll my own and like to have one with a drink or after a good meal, and what little bit of smoking I do might kill me, but it's nobody's business.  I also have never smoked in the house out of respect for my wife, but the garage or out back in the shed is mine.  Long as I control my drug of choice and don't mess with anyone else it should be nobody's business, and I would expect the same from people no matter what they are on.  Freedom only works one way....

[Cabin4]

I'm fed up with the drug situation. Legalize ALL of it. Put a tax on it and forget about it. It will put an end to the drug cartels and all the BS. Who gives a you know what if stupid people want to poisen their bodies. There already doing it today and making it legal will improve the overall situation. Tobbaco companies could start growing pot here in the USA. All the other drugs can be produced here. People can work in these jobs. We need jobs and less of the mess this all is creating.

Just think of all the low lifes here that will have to find a new way to make a living screwing people over.

[beerbelly]

I am with you Cabin4, legalize it all, if they kill themselfs with the dope so be it. I could care less. But there should be no asstance of any kind for the drugged out scum. Drug test before any asstance.
                              Beerbelly

[Cabin4]

Yes, I agree. No assitance for the drug users & abusers. You make your own bed, you sleep in it. The process of natural selection has it merits.

[45-70.gov]

now  your  talking

more drugs  means more dead dopers

and   you  thought  i liked and encouraged  the dopers

[Matt]

I think that the Government has no right to tell us what we can or can not put into our bodies. As a former user of several drugs both legal and illegal I see nothing wrong with an adult making the decision to use or not to use.
Now that being said several say that taxing drugs will cause the illegal market to continue… BS…

The production costs of most any drug legal or not is pennies…
Street value of say pot, ranges from $100.00 per gram for “kush, perk, hydro”  down to $60.00 Oz for “reg or dirt weed” . If the grow is outdoors the cost is labor related only as NATURE creates the HERB for us, if indoor then the cost goes up but not that much.
So I could grow a 1 acre field of pot that might cost me $1000.00 total for the crop sell it in a legal type system for say $2000.00 - $3000.00 and make good money off the crop.

Now if it was distributed like tobacco say in packs of 20 joints, the cost might be around $10.00 per pack or $10.00 per ½ oz of plant.  Tax it $20.00 and you are still WAY under the illegal cost and have genereated tax revenue and spent none of the tax payers money.  The drug dealers COULD NOT SELL IT FOR $30.00 per ½ oz and make money so the risk of people still looking to a dealer would be minimal if not nill.

Bottom line is if you let the government run one part of your life they will not stop until they control your every breath…  Stand UP NOW… Enough is Enough…. Stop the wasting of our childrens future by the powers that be…

Matt

[charles p]

I can see no benefit to society by legalizing drugs, that out weights the enormous benefits of ending drug use.  A lot of good people have gone up in smoke or wasted their talents on cocaine.  I've never met anyone on cocaine that I felt was trustworthy.  It alters the mind to the point that common sense, family values, and all the known virtues of mankind just go out the window to allow the next hit.

Our balance of trade could probably be solved if our dollars didn't go overseas to fund drug habits here in the US.

I can't for the life of me find any reason to reduce the cost of drugs through legalization.  People will sell their lives at any price.  Why make it easier?

I think the military should be tasked with stopping the importation of drugs across our borders. 

[45-70.gov]

I can see no benefit to society by legalizing drugs, that out weights the enormous benefits of ending drug use.  A lot of good people have gone up in smoke or wasted their talents on cocaine.  I've never met anyone on cocaine that I felt was trustworthy.  It alters the mind to the point that common sense, family values, and all the known virtues of mankind just go out the window to allow the next hit.

Our balance of trade could probably be solved if our dollars didn't go overseas to fund drug habits here in the US.

I can't for the life of me find any reason to reduce the cost of drugs through legalization.  People will sell their lives at any price.  Why make it easier?

I think the military should be tasked with stopping the importation of drugs across our borders. 

you  do not beleive in freedom

you think we need to stop drug  use....any suggestions
besides  increased government control over  free mens  lives???

[ironglow]

 Yup! Legalize and let them suffer..but we know it won't work that way! Bleeding hearts will always see that the perps are cared for. So many times on those "cops" shows where high speed chases are prevalent and often innocent people get hurt or killed by the perp, the idiot is buzzed up on some kind of illegal chemical. I just can't see accomodating the crackhead while endangering the innocent people on our highways.
  If the govt allows dope but taxes it very highly..I can't in good conscience say it is OK to legally and wantonly endanger so many convenience store or gas station operators. One honest, working person's life is worth much more than a million crackheads' convenience.

[MGMorden]

Yup! Legalize and let them suffer..but we know it won't work that way! Bleeding hearts will always see that the perps are cared for. So many times on those "cops" shows where high speed chases are prevalent and often innocent people get hurt or killed by the perp, the idiot is buzzed up on some kind of illegal chemical. I just can't see accomodating the crackhead while endangering the innocent people on our highways.
  If the govt allows dope but taxes it very highly..I can't in good conscience say it is OK to legally and wantonly endanger so many convenience store or gas station operators. One honest, working person's life is worth much more than a million crackheads' convenience.

All about what MIGHT happen.  If they're high they MIGHT go driving a car and hurt someone, or they MIGHT go rob a store - both of which scenario's can be applied to alcohol, which is legal.

Those things are not inherent to drug use, and it's a terrible road to go down when you start outlawing things because of what MIGHT happen.  Afterall, you MIGHT go on a shooting spree if you're allowed to own repeating firearms, and you MIGHT incite a riot if you're allowed to publicly protest the government.

But yeah, don't be surprised when you're passing laws against other people "for their own good" when others come around and do the same to you. 

[magooch]

Okay, lets compromise; make drugs free to anyone that wants them, but they must use them on special reservations where they can get completely wiped out and not bother anyone except other druggies.  Anyone caught using, or being under the influence, off the reservation would be shot.

Spare me the comparison to keep and bear arms.

[ironglow]

  MG;
       It is not about what MIGHT happen..we must pull our heads from the sand. Talk to local LEOs..most of the crimes today are caused by dopers either up on dope or robbing/killing someone for a few bucks to feed their addiction.
 i am all for personal rights, but we DO live in communities..should citizen A's right to snort or shoot up, outweigh the health, safety and lives of other decent citizen's ? Should a community live by reasonable rules or should they be models of anarchy and Nihilism ?
 
   Magooch has a good idea, but the bleeding hearts would compromise that !
 
  My original post was simply to communicate my surprise of how society refrains from stigmatizing dope heads. I still maintain that stigmatizing users in the sternest way, is a good idea. Can anybody disagree with that ?

[MGMorden]

Spare me the comparison to keep and bear arms.

Of course, because simply saying "spare me" automatically dismisses an argument and makes it invalid . . . spare me your retort.

ironglow:  I work with a lot of local LEO's and talk with them a good deal (I work for the county, which encompasses the Sheriff's department).  A ton are crimes are caused by the drug trade, but you have to look at the basic outlay.  A disproportionate number of people are in jail for simple possession.  When that is a crime then sure, tons of "dopers" are responsible for that, but that's hardly surprising.  Besides that, a lot of other crimes relating to drugs stem from the dealers and their tactics.  BOTH of these would not be a problem if the drugs were not illegal in the first place.  The guys in for simple possession would not be taking up needed space.  The dealers wouldn't be able to cause trouble because it's hard to compete with Wal-mart or 7 Eleven on prices when the stuff is legal.

We as a society DO need rules.  But those rules should be for things that directly harm others - not about things that might allow you to do so.  It's already illegal to rob someone.  It's illegal to shoot someone.  Why don't we actually arrest and punish (harshly) the people who, I don't know, are ROBBING AND SHOOTING people, rather than deflecting blame and arresting a few potheads because they MIGHT rob or shoot someone.  Then we might actually have enough room in our prisons to lock up the people who DO need to be locked up: murderers, rapists, child molesters, thiefs, etc, rather than releasing them early to make room for some guy who happened to smoke some weed on the weekends.

As far as stigmatizing - depends.  I disassociate myself with whichever groups I please.  When it comes to drugs - depends.  Though I've never smoked it myself I've known a lot of potheads in my time, and most of them are completely decent folk.  Half of them were growing their own plants because it was cheaper that way (and if you don't associate with dealers there's less chance of getting caught).  Harder stuff like cocaine, meth or heroin - generally I'd avoid users of those.  Make no mistake I think anybody that uses them insane, but still, it's their mistake to make.  If they commit a crime while using the drug or to get money to use the drug then they should still be punished, but we don't need even more laws on top of our basic ones for that.

You simply are not going to eliminate the drugs.  Try as you might, the genie is out of the bottle.  People use them, and people will continue to use them, law or no.  All that is achieved through their prohibition is to establish a dangerous black market that harms our society far more than drugs alone would.

[SHOOTALL]

hillery is left not right !

[PeculiarSatyr]

  MG;
       It is not about what MIGHT happen..we must pull our heads from the sand. Talk to local LEOs..most of the crimes today are caused by dopers either up on dope or robbing/killing someone for a few bucks to feed their addiction.

Maybe its time you pull your head out of the sand?  Care to provide anything other than your talks with local LEOs to support your claims?  Where do you live BTW because it sounds like something out of a bad movie?

[Cabin4]

The war on drugs is a complete failure in a free society and always will be. The only way to stop it is to become communist. Stop giving the communist a reason to exsist in this country. Legalize it, regulate, tax it and all the crap comes to an end.

This is a free country (or suppose to be). Stupid people will continue to reck their lives and their bodies legal or not.

Its a waist of time and tax payer money. I wonder what the net cash flow impact is to the tax payers on this? Tax revenues rise and the tax payer cost to fight the stupid drug war ends, the cost at the local level for police actions declines, the cost of incarsiration goes down. Its massive. The net cash impact would be HUGE!

[SHOOTALL]

stop looking at the user as a victim . he is a criminal . With out a user there would be no seller .

[Beers]

Well then, all we've got to do is get rid of the users... Why didn't anyone else think of that?! 

[Sourdough]

I did but some think it would be a bad idea.  I said stand them up against a wall.

[SHOOTALL]

they did think of it then they realized they voted !

[ironglow]

   Sure is comical..I can read a lot about personal lives and habits by reading these replies...

[Cabin4]

  Sure is comical..I can read a lot about personal lives and habits by reading these replies...

We all shed a little "sun light" on our selves when discussing these type of controversial topics.

[MGMorden]

  Sure is comical..I can read a lot about personal lives and habits by reading these replies...

Sounds almost like you're trying to weasel your way into an ad hominem argument.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Oh yeah, but Wikipedia is "just opinions", feel free to look it up in virtually any logic textbook, or additional links:

http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/adhom/adhom.html

As for myself and your insinuation - I have nothing to hide.  I'm about as reasonably anonymous on this board as one could hope to be, and there is no chance in hell that I could be prosecuted about any admissions regarding drug use here.  There is no incentive to lie, so I do not - and I maintain that I have never taken an illegal drug in my entire life.  I have never smoked a cigarette in my entire life.  I didn't take a single sip of alcohol until 3 MONTHS after my 21st birthday (would have done so on my 21st but I was laid up with a broken leg at the time and so a big party wasn't in the cards).  HOWEVER, I did go to college, and as any college grad will tell you, you meet a LOT of drug users there.

Whether you choose to believe that is your business, and your right, but I wouldn't expect you to convince many people of your argument when you start to try and point fingers as soon as the logical parts of your position start to fall apart.