Mark this day down...

[ironglow]

   You may never see such a statement again, but here goes...

  Hillary was right!

  Just once..Today when she said that some people in the U.S. are part of the drug cartel murder ring!

  Anyone in the U.S. that uses illegal drugs is helping the murderous swine that are killing many people, even beyond those they kill with their dope/poison..
  If those boneheads wouldn't BUY the garbage, then the parasitic crooks would have noone to sell their poison to !

   Now watch the libs try to get at our gun rights through this "drug smuggling crisis". You will note now that GUNS are mentioned fully as often as the DRUGS they are smuggling.  Never mind that the crooks can get all the guns they want elsewhere..Al Queda manages to get all they want..

[Beers]

Nope. Sorry. Got a few things very backward there chief.

The whole "drug cartel murder ring" phenomenon would evaporate practically overnight were it not for the unconstitutional laws prohibiting said drugs. Why the government still sees fit to legislate what people can and cannot put into their own bodies is totally beyond me. Prohibition didn't work for alcohol, and it doesn't work for marijuana, cocaine or any other illegal drug. It never will. All prohibition does is create a huge and lucrative market for criminals to profit by.

If the boneheads in congress wouldn't try to legislate which substances are OK for "free" people to use and which will land "free" people in jail, then the parasitic crooks would have no market at all.

Your last statement has the ring of truth to it though. Strange that you would rationalize matters so that you can still defend this travesty known as the "War on Drugs", when it now looks like it may be used to come after your Right to keep and bear arms as well.

[ms]

   You may never see such a statement again, but here goes...

  Hillary was right!

  Just once..Today when she said that some people in the U.S. are part of the drug cartel murder ring!

  Anyone in the U.S. that uses illegal drugs is helping the murderous swine that are killing many people, even beyond those they kill with their dope/poison..
  If those boneheads wouldn't BUY the garbage, then the parasitic crooks would have noone to sell their poison to !

   Now watch the libs try to get at our gun rights through this "drug smuggling crisis". You will note now that GUNS are mentioned fully as often as the DRUGS they are smuggling.  Never mind that the crooks can get all the guns they want elsewhere..Al Queda manages to get all they want..

She was talking about her husband and the bush family.

[ms]

Nope. Sorry. Got a few things very backward there chief.

The whole "drug cartel murder ring" phenomenon would evaporate practically overnight were it not for the unconstitutional laws prohibiting said drugs. Why the government still sees fit to legislate what people can and cannot put into their own bodies is totally beyond me. Prohibition didn't work for alcohol, and it doesn't work for marijuana, cocaine or any other illegal drug. It never will. All prohibition does is create a huge and lucrative market for criminals to profit by.

If the boneheads in congress wouldn't try to legislate which substances are OK for "free" people to use and which will land "free" people in jail, then the parasitic crooks would have no market at all.

Your last statement has the ring of truth to it though. Strange that you would rationalize matters so that you can still defend this travesty known as the "War on Drugs", when it now looks like it may be used to come after your Right to keep and bear arms as well.

Alot of people would be out of work if they did that.

[Beers]

Thank you ms... not only did you double post (there is an edit button you know...) but you contributed absolutely nothing at all to the topic at hand.

[magooch]

Would you also legalize drugs for our yutes?  Let's get real.  Drugs are bad and those who deal with them are bad people.  Those who use drugs are hurting our society and are just as responsible for this scourge as those who are selling them.

The liberatarian use of hard drugs has already been tried and it has never worked; it only leads to degradation that is so totally intolerable that it is very quickly abandoned.  Alcohol is one thing--drugs are a whole nuther thing.  

I used to think that people should be free to put any kind of poinson into their system that they want.  One day I met a guy who was walking down the street minding his own business, when a drugged out piece of crap just walked up to him and did his best to gut him out with a knife.  If that is the kind of thing that we would have to tolerate, just so the druggies can be free to run around in a fog--forget it.

I wish some do-gooder organization would put tons of poisoned drugs on the streets so that the users would all be dead, or afraid to use drugs for fear of not knowing which were and weren't poisnoned.

[Beers]

By "yutes" I assume your doing a Joe Pesci impersonation and mean "youths"... If so.. No, of course not. No more than alcohol or tobacco are legal for a youth to purchase or possess.

Just like guns don't kill people, drugs are not "bad". Drugs are simply substances. Sometimes bad people use drugs, Sometimes bad people get their hands on guns. That kind of logic doesn't sound any better coming from you than it does coming from the Brady bunch.

Many people who deal in drugs are bad people yes, but that's only the case because prohibition hands the distribution of drugs over to the criminal class. The people who run the liquor store down the street aren't bad people. During prohibition however, the mobsters running the speakeasy definitely were.

The only harm the average drug user causes to society is the financial drain they place on taxpayers when we lock them up for smoking a doober. Most drug related violent crime amounts to territorial pissings between dealers, and confrontations between dealers and police. Once again, this kind of thing would disappear if drugs were legalized and regulated.

Sorry, but "hard" drugs have never been legalized and government regulated, as has been done with alcohol and tobacco. We've never tried it. I'm not suggesting that there would be no control, just that we shouldn't allow the criminal classes to be the ones who have that control.

Your tale of the drugged up knife attack once again reeks of BS, Brady bunch style, slippery slope "logic"... It sounds no better than this would:

"I used to think that people should be free to carry a concealed weapon for self defense purposes. One day I met a guy who was walking down the street minding his own business, when some crazy with a handgun just walked up to him and did his best to put a bullet in his head. If that is the kind of thing that we would have to tolerate, just so the gun-nuts can be free to defend themselves - forget it."

You guys should try sticking up for the ENTIRE Constitution, not just the parts you personally like.

[ms]

Thank you ms... not only did you double post (there is an edit button you know...) but you contributed absolutely nothing at all to the topic at hand.

Oh well go back to bed.

[Cabin4]

The government should have a role in this because it's commerce. So the only question for me is should it be legal or illegal commerce. These are controlled substances, similar to alcohol so of course any thought of legalization should exclude those under 21. This is a tuff one. One side of me says legalize it and many of the problems will be solved yet I understand new one will be created. The other side says fight on. But Its a battle that our governent has proved they don't have the ability to win. I'm not sure if everything has been done right either and given their track record this is likly the case.

[slim rem 7]

ive seen what cocain can do along with other drugs so strong an habit forming..
 that shouldn t happen to anybody even if they dumb enough to try it..
we way to dang much money spotting pot though.. use that to save our young from the hard drugs.. don t let it be the gateway drug it is.. put it in abc stores ..
 collect taxes on it..still be a lot cheaper than some pusher is gonna charge..
  as controlled as the old soviet union was .. vodka was a huge drug problem ..
 they knew they couldn t stop it..kill my daddy an mama but don t take my vodka..
 anyone who has see cocaine work knows the user has one loyalty an concern.. that next fix..slim

[rparsons934]

 Those who use drugs are hurting our society and are just as responsible for this scourge as those who are selling them.

Umm I smoke pot every now and then. I also get straight A's in college. I also work for a company that has provided consumers and industris with lubricants and soap for over a hundred years. I pay taxes just like everyone. (I pay quite a bit of them with my salery). I would say im not hurting any one. I do my part as a citizian. I agree with slim Make some legal and tax them. While others remain illigal. I have seen what cocain can do to people as well. My whole family are Junkies. Ive lost numbers of friends to it. I also never tryied any thing besides pot. So I say are all people who do drugs hurting and scourging this country no. Just like not every gun owner goes and shoots up a seven eleven. And the goverment should stop useing the war on drugs as a reason to take are weapons.

[torpedoman]

the Kennedy fortune was from booze during the proabition peroid. don't you ever wonder were all the profit from this stuff really goes?how many of the guys dealing drugs in the slums are living in mansions and driving rolls? If the profit is so massive why are'nt they doing this and having off shore accountsi've never heard of a "drug kingpin being busted or killed that had a massive fortune stashed anywere have you? This goes way up the chain and if they legalized it a lot of their rich contributors would be hurt.

[Cabin4]

If drugs weren't illegal how would the more covert hidden operatives of government around the world raise money for their secret crapola, get rich, and have debaucherous parties...!!


..TM7

 

[Redtail1949]

With the sole exception of smoking a little pot I believe all other drug use should be banned. I have 60 years on this planet and have seen and done many a thing. I have watched many of my friends and some of my family succumbe to drug use. I also, have seen the devestation caused by alchohol abuse.

No sir, nothing can be said, nothing that anyone can show me, will ever convince me that drugs are harmless and affect only the user.

I have never seen a happy or successful end to a drug users story.

[rex6666]

With the sole exception of smoking a little pot I believe all other drug use should be banned. I have 60 years on this planet and have seen and done many a thing. I have watched many of my friends and some of my family succumbe to drug use. I also, have seen the devestation caused by alchohol abuse.

No sir, nothing can be said, nothing that anyone can show me, will ever convince me that drugs are harmless and affect only the user.

I have never seen a happy or successful end to a drug users story.

WILL HAVE TO AGREE to a point i have talked to lots of people that smoking pot
put them in places so they could try other things then got hooked.
I abused alcohol (and my family) for 35 years before i stopped, i know first hand
what in addiction does, i have not had a drink in 11 years.

[Oldshooter]

GONNA TRY AND NOT BE LONG WINDED HERE!

I don't have a problem with ending the war on drugs or even making them legal. There are people that are gonna abuse drugs just like they do alcohol, no matter what "We" do to try and stop them. I have a brother that has ruined his life and the life of his sons because he is/was an arrogant little puke that did not think any rules applied to him! Now he is a 55 year old idiot that wanders around scamming his mother and anyone else that will listen to him for money.

Pharmaceuticals are the big problem now, people that would not consider smoking pot or snorting cocaine or smoking crack are living on prescription drugs. and their lives are coming apart


If you're going to do drugs "what ever kind"  then you must accept responsability for your actions. Don'T expect the "GOVERNMENT"(US) to bail your behind out. NO welfare, NO foodstamps, NO subsidized housing.
 NO  free medical care. I'm tired of having followed the rules and paying taxes for over 47 years and having to foot the bill for self centered, hedonistic people that wont do the right thing, but will expect people that do, to cover their behinds.

So smoke, drink, or shove whatever you want up your nose or your behind, and when the world as you know it falls apart do the right thing and shoot yourself in the head!

I know that wont happen because, "WE" are feel good society and we "CARE" about peoples misfortunes and want to help with the "addictions"  so We will feed, house, and take care of your stinking carcasses.
But guess what.......... "WE" are running out of money. So you may be on your own in the near future!

Now if this does not apply to you then it was not meant for you. You may be like me, and are sick and tired of this mamby pamby if it feels good do it BS!

[Sourdough]

This is something I have been thinking about for several weeks now.  If there was no customers there would be no drug trade. 

My solution, and this goes for alcohol as well.  Anything that is physically addictive.  First offense, a warning.  Second offense, 60 days in the slammer.  Third offense, stand them up against a wall and shoot them.  After a few months of this, the first offense would take on more meaning. 

And as for dealers, all of them.  Stand them up along the wall with the users.

Within a year the drug trade would dry up.

Before anyone says I don't know what it is like to be an addict, yes I do.  For five years I was an alcoholic, two bottles of Vodka or Gin everyday.  Some days as many as three bottles.  One day I took a hard look at my self and did not like what I saw.  I quite then and there.  Yes it was tough, but I did it. 

Again when I was in the hospital in Germany, after having my chest opened.  I was given prescription drugs.  The doses the doctors gave me was high.  I was still taking heavy doses when I was released from the hospital, and sent back to duty.  They made the pain go away, so I took them.  Then one day I was taking them and I realized it was not for the pain any more but for the good feeling I got from them.  I went in and told the doctor I was addicted and could not stop on my own.  I wanted help, and they gave it to me.  Back then they did not have drug treatment facilities, they locked me up on the psychiatric ward.  I went through the slow and painful detox process, and interacted with some real fruitcakes.  Never want to go through that again.  I've since had open heart surgery and several accidents where Percocet and Vicodin have been prescribed.  After being released from the hospital, I would cut the doses myself and live with some pain, because I never again want to get hooked.  Because of my back, the doctors are always giving me Percocet, but I rarely take one.  I hate the feeling I get from it, and it takes two days before I get over the affects of just one tablet of the medication.  After the immediate happy feel good affects are over in 12 hours, it then makes my head buzz, I am in a daze, and I feel so tired and depressed for the next 48 hours.  That makes me want to take another one just to get over those feelings alone, but I never do, I know the results of giving in.  I live with the pain 24/7.

[MGMorden]

This is something I have been thinking about for several weeks now.  If there was no customers there would be no drug trade. 

My solution, and this goes for alcohol as well.  Anything that is physically addictive.  First offense, a warning.  Second offense, 60 days in the slammer.  Third offense, stand them up against a wall and shoot them.  After a few months of this, the first offense would take on more meaning. 

Take the same logic and apply it to owning a gun.  The government will claim that no good comes of them and that they are a danger (and they'll find plenty of people to drag up and claim that their lives or the lives of their friends was ruined by a gun).

So - first gun you're caught with, a warning.

Second, 60 days in jail.

Third time, summary execution.

I'm sure after a few weeks the "gun problem" would be solved.

I mean afterall, since we're apparently all for letting the government, rather than the individual, decide what's best for the populace, then why stop at just drugs?  It's for your own good; since an individual obviously isn't competent enough to decide what's good for themselves, then any protestation will simply be seen as further evidence of your guilt.

The simple truth is that there is a danger in giving the government too much power.  You want freedom, then it swings both ways.  The only way anybody is ever free is to accept that at all times there will be a lot of people doing things that you really don't like. Without realizing that we're really only pushing for freedom for whatever set of actions works for ourselves, and not a truly free nation.

and PS This is coming from a person that while I have an occasional drink, I have never taken an illegal drug in my life.  I can actually say that I've never even smoked a cigarette in my life - my grandmother died from lung cancer when I was 7 years old.  Based on that I would NEVER put a cigarette in my mouth . . . but I appreciate the choice the being MINE and not some nanny state's.

[Oldshooter]

The only thing wrong with your theory is that drugs are a real problem. guns are a conceived problem and only by the leftist.

[MGMorden]

The only thing wrong with your theory is that drugs are a real problem. guns are a conceived problem and only by the leftist.

As mentioned by another poster, saying "drugs are a real problem" carries all the weight of the statement "guns are a real problem" coming from gun control activists.

You believe that drugs are a real problem.  Many do not.

You don't believe guns are a real problem.  Many people do.

Taking the choice away from the individual simply means you're at the mercy of the opinion of whoever is in power, and you better hope that they walk the same exact line of opinions that you do.

Personally, I'd rather people just get to choose for themselves.  Nobody is saying that you have to go out and buy drugs, the same way that nobody is saying that the lefties must all go out and buy guns for us to be happy.  In both cases the group that likes either of these simply wants to be left alone and not have the nanny state tell them what to do.

Not throwing attacks at any one individual, but it always amazes me how many will wave their little flags and yell "The land of the free!" but are just as quick to then go all "No, that ain't raht - there oughta be a law." as soon as they see something that they don't personally like.

[Oldshooter]

You believe that drugs are a real problem.  Many do not.

You must be a politician anybody that has his head outa his behind knows drugs are a problem. Even those that do the drugs know that! your gonna get me to cussin if you act stupid or pretend i am!

Personally, I'd rather people just get to choose for themselves.

I said that is just fine by me,(in a previous post) just dont come ask for a bailout when your world falls apart!

Edited to fix fat finger mistakes!

[MGMorden]

I said that is just fine by me,(in aprevious post jus tdont come ask for a bailout when your world falls apart

Works fine - I'm a Libertarian - I generally don't believe in bailouts or anything.  In my view the government should provide a military for defense of the country's sovereignty, and a police force to enforce the most basic of laws (murder, rape, theft, etc), but beyond that should generally sit back and stay out of people's lives .

[Oldshooter]

Then by golly I'm a libertarian too if that is what one is! 

[Dixie Dude]

Japan has no real drug problem.  Anyone caught using is locked up in a padded cell to go through withdrawal cold turkey.  Sometimes many don't survive.  That usually solves the problem.

[MGMorden]

Japan has no real drug problem.  Anyone caught using is locked up in a padded cell to go through withdrawal cold turkey.  Sometimes many don't survive.  That usually solves the problem.

Read their gun laws - they're equally strict.  As a summary, the only gun you can even think about owning is a shotgun.  After a lot of licensing and paperwork you're allowed to purchase one to be used ONLY for hunting and trap shooting.  Without such a license even holding another person's gun is illegal.

Do you really want to model our laws after their society?

A government who takes away one freedom will come for more.  Don't accept it just because it's one you don't care about.

    "In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

    And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

    And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

    And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
- Martin Niemöller

[WylieKy]

One day I met a guy who was walking down the street minding his own business, when a drugged out piece of crap just walked up to him and did his best to gut him out with a knife.  If that is the kind of thing that we would have to tolerate, just so the druggies can be free to run around in a fog--forget it.

Where drugs legal or illegal when this happened?.... I'll bet they were illegal, and all the trillions spent on trying to keep this guy from getting his drugs failed to work and in all likely hood exasperated the problem.

By "yutes" I assume your doing a Joe Pesci impersonation and mean "youths"... If so.. No, of course not. No more than alcohol or tobacco are legal for a youth to purchase or possess.

Just like guns don't kill people, drugs are not "bad". Drugs are simply substances. Sometimes bad people use drugs, Sometimes bad people get their hands on guns. That kind of logic doesn't sound any better coming from you than it does coming from the Brady bunch.

Many people who deal in drugs are bad people yes, but that's only the case because prohibition hands the distribution of drugs over to the criminal class. The people who run the liquor store down the street aren't bad people. During prohibition however, the mobsters running the speakeasy definitely were.

The only harm the average drug user causes to society is the financial drain they place on taxpayers when we lock them up for smoking a doober. Most drug related violent crime amounts to territorial pissings between dealers, and confrontations between dealers and police. Once again, this kind of thing would disappear if drugs were legalized and regulated.

Sorry, but "hard" drugs have never been legalized and government regulated, as has been done with alcohol and tobacco. We've never tried it. I'm not suggesting that there would be no control, just that we shouldn't allow the criminal classes to be the ones who have that control.

Your tale of the drugged up knife attack once again reeks of BS, Brady bunch style, slippery slope "logic"... It sounds no better than this would:

"I used to think that people should be free to carry a concealed weapon for self defense purposes. One day I met a guy who was walking down the street minding his own business, when some crazy with a handgun just walked up to him and did his best to put a bullet in his head. If that is the kind of thing that we would have to tolerate, just so the gun-nuts can be free to defend themselves - forget it."

You guys should try sticking up for the ENTIRE Constitution, not just the parts you personally like.

Very good post, sir.

I have friends that live in China.  They don't have a drug problem AT ALL.  Let's be like CHINA!!!! (insert sarcasm here)   

[ironglow]

  Read the original post..the one which Beers said was wrong..Basically, I said users of illegal drugs have a major burden of being part of the murderous actions that are going on with the c artels and the crooks that support them.
  I believe that I was 100% correct when I said.. if nobody would buy the garbage, then the cartels would have noone to sell their trash to!  End of the problem.   ....Rather simple...NO ?

   Comparing guns to illegal drugs really begs the question! illegal drugs never kept a tyrannical government from enslaving a people. Illegal drugs didn't "win the west", though they may lose it! Illegal drugs never provided a wholesome afternoon's recreation for Dad and his kids.
  Illegal drugs haven't been used to round up and hold criminals, although they have created many criminals. Illegal drugs didn't protect the wagon trains in the 1840s...nor did they help our soldiers on D-day or our Marines on Iwo Jima. Illegal drugs are not protected by the 2nd article of the Bill of rights.

  You will note that I didn't even suggest a punishment for the user..but I do think they should be "outed' and ostracized as an "enabler" of the cartels.

[MGMorden]

   Comparing guns to illegal drugs really begs the question! illegal drugs never kept a tyrannical government from enslaving a people. Illegal drugs didn't "win the west", though they may lose it! Illegal drugs never provided a wholesome afternoon's recreation for Dad and his kids.
  Illegal drugs haven't been used to round up and hold criminals, although they have created many criminals. Illegal drugs didn't protect the wagon trains in the 1840s...nor did they help our soldiers on D-day or our Marines on Iwo Jima. Illegal drugs are not protected by the 2nd article of the Bill of rights.

Very patriotic and all, but an item doesn't need some special stance in history in order to rightfully be left alone by the government (or is the glory of the gun universally accepted - to some people they are symbols of death and murder.  That view is seen as ridiculous to us, but your views on drugs would seem as ridiculous to others).  The simple fact is that anything done by the government "for your own good" reeks of too much control IMHO.

In a lot of ways though the comparison really does work.

If you could magically eliminate all guns, then technically all gun crime would go away.  A lot of people like us who enjoy them and use them responsibly (though not everyone does, and there are terrible consequences when they are misused) would be very sad, but if it was a magic button from God that literally got rid of them all then gun crime would be gone.  Murder and other associated crimes certainly wouldn't though, and the whole discussion is moot because aside from that magic button you're never actually going to eliminate them all.

Drugs are much the same way.  If you eliminated them completely then all the negatives of drugs would be gone.  However, you're never actually going to get rid of them so you're creating the situation: "When selling drugs is outlawed, only outlaws will sell drugs.". 

As I said earlier I'm not a drug user (aside from a little alcohol), but we simply can't afford to only support freedoms on things that we engage in personally.  If whether something can remain free simply turns into a popularity contest then each and every one of us is going to get bitten on something eventually.  I'd rather not give the government that much power personally (though they're already far beyond that point now). 

We've gotten into this mess that we're in directly because we have so many groups all wanting to legislate each other's behavior.  You see it everywhere.  Gun grabbers want to take our guns because they're "dangerous".  Environmentalists want to take away your spray cans and non-recycled paper because they're "polluting".  Lots of people want to take the drugs (including alcohol which they did for a time during prohibition) because they're "addicting".  Suburbanites want to take our airports because they're "big" and "loud" (an issue that hits personally close to home as a private pilot - look up how many GA airports have closed in recent years).  Communities want to shut down strip clubs because they're "immoral".  PETA wants to stop people from eating meat because it's "cruel". 

We as a nation have become so quick to pounce on every group that does something different than us that you can't help but end up in one of the ones being attacked on SOME grounds.  All this wouldn't be a problem if the various groups supported TRUE freedom, and not some set of restrictive rules that happens to match our personal preferences.

[PeculiarSatyr]

Something I don't get...Most of the people on this forum seem to love freedom.  "Live Free or Die" going all around.  At the same time people think the government should be allowed to restrict freedom when it comes to drugs.  Seems a bit off to me is all.

Also, the benefits of ending drug prohibition seem to outweigh the risks. Government could tax the hell out of drugs.  Save millions on justice/corrections.  Druglords and gangs would be out of business when it comes to drugs (nobody is going to go to a shady drug dealer when they can get a pharmaceutical grade product from walmart).

Alcohol prohibition created a lot of crime just like modern drug prohibition does.

Also, marijuana seems to be a much safer drug than ETOH.  Sure there will be people ODing on heroin or whatever, but people OD on alcohol every day.

[magooch]

I guess I'll never be a libertarian if it means that we have to equate the use of drugs with the right to keep and bear arms.  Theory is one thing, but actual results are something else and I don't believe and never will that just because we have one right, we should have every right.  It might work if we were all self reliant and lived remotely.  The problem is that we live in society and when you do harm to yourself, you also harm those around you.  The mere act of owning a gun, or a whole bunch of them and using them legally doesn't do harm to yourself, or those around you.  I don't believe you can say the same for drugs.