Author Topic: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -  (Read 916 times)

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« on: March 28, 2009, 01:27:23 PM »
It does exist!
Three pix from a reference book - ask Lance -
Note the 3 face chisel point - forged bullet.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2009, 01:52:47 PM »
I wonder what they believed the benefit of that point over a plain conical point was.
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2009, 01:54:44 PM »
I wonder what they believed the benefit of that point over a plain conical point was.

Don't have a clue - but being forged they must have been tough.  Worked too.  Ask Lance for the details - he has THE book.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Artilleryman

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2009, 04:39:46 PM »
It may have been an attempt at armor priecing. 
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline lance

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2009, 05:09:22 PM »
 The book only has a few notes about the Quinlivan projectile.  Michael Quinlivan and his brother Maurice Quinlivan, helped to forge the Wrought Iron 14-pounder Cameron Rifle-a very rare Confederate item. The book goes on about Michael Quinlivan's 1909 obituary in a Charleston,S.C. newspaper.
 The newspaper states the Quinlivan was used against the USS Keokuk. Which had many round shots and rifle bolts to go completely through her.  The book also points out that the Quinlivan was used at Charleston, S.C. and one was captured at Fort Fisher, N.C. and is now at West Point, N.Y.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2009, 06:28:52 PM »
I wonder what they believed the benefit of that point over a plain conical point was.

Don't have a clue - but being forged they must have been tough.  Worked too.  Ask Lance for the details - he has THE book.

     We have pondered this question for some years after seeing Hopson's or Quinlivan's bolt in another book or at the West Point Museum.

     Our speculation is that it was an attempt by the designer to develop a projectile which could drill it's way through armor.  There are several technical problems here, but the most serious is the fact that you need a harder material in your drill than the material drilled.  Since the metal used in both was wrought iron, the carbon required for hardening was absent.  Another significant problem was the forward feed (velocity) of this crude drill was far, far too quick, even considering the substantial projectile RPM. 

Quote:  from Boom J in the “USS Lehigh ironclad gun turret-optical illusion” thread.
     “The Confederates were definitely experimenting with armor piercing bolts, and indeed fired some at the USS Lehigh in at least one of these South Carolina coastal battles, as none other than Admiral John A. Dahlgren witnessed first hand; In September, 1863, Admiral Dahlgren reentered Charleston Harbor with ironclads and exchanged fire with the coastal forts in which the Hopsen projectile was used. This time the Confederates did not fair as well and Admiral Dahlgren commented: “The enemy fired some shots of wedge shape, samples of which were picked up from the decks of the Lehigh - an absurd practice originating in the brain of some wild inventor.””

      The following comments and photos of the Hopson projectile are found in Civil War Heavy Explosive Ordnance by Jack Bell, an excellent reference book which is very thorough in it’s treatment of the material.  The projectile is in the U.S.M.A. collection at West Point, NY.

  “This bolt combines Brooke’s milled base sabot with Lucien Hopson’s design for a pyramidal nose.  This type of projectile was reportedly fired (ineffectively) at the USS Lehigh, a Monitor-type gunboat.  It has also been discovered with a Type II Tennessee sabot.  An 1862 letter from the CS Ordnance office talked about tests of the Hopson design, indicating early usage.  The 7-inch rifle would have been a Brooke design.”

     We don't know if these are completely different designs which happen to look very, very similar or if some collaboration was effected, but not stated in any documentation we have seen. 

Regards,

M&T


 
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2009, 06:42:15 PM »
It looks to me like the same concept used by some archery hunters and known as a "cut on contact" type arrowhead .

The rest seem to just want to smash their way through on one principle or other .

I think a prong type head similar to some of the old armour punching bodkin type arrowhead would "catch" even at an angle .

Back to the "Lehigh" I'm srprised there is not an impression of a "kitchen sink" stamped onto the turret !!!! :D
"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline Double D

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2009, 06:50:52 PM »
The concept is not lost to time.  Muzzy has adapted the concept to their broad heads for hunting claiming superior penetration in flesh and bones.  http://www.muzzy.com/news07/broadheadinfo.htm. They even have a patent. http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7011589/description.html



Offline lance

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2009, 09:02:31 AM »
 All i can say is that it's an interesting bit of history.  Who knows how many were made and how many times they were used.
 It must have been important to Michael Quinlivan, and surely he was proud of it, to be in his newspaper obituary.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2009, 04:00:37 PM »
     Lance,   Did you by any chance get the info and pics from Warren Ripley's great reference book, Artillery and Ammunition of the Civil War?  I bought my copy in 1973 and it is by far the most used artillery book that Mike and I use.  It's binding is literally falling off, it's been used so much!  Thanks, Lance for making us dig for that info!

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 04:22:36 PM »
The newspaper states the Quinlivan was used against the USS Keokuk, which had many round shots and rifle bolts to go completely through her.

The Keokuk was "armored" with "horizontal iron bars alternating with planks of oak wood, sheathed with a boiler iron sheet" (Wikipedia) which turned out to be totally ineffective against even round shot.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline lance

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2009, 04:30:45 PM »
     Lance,   Did you by any chance get the info and pics from Warren Ripley's great reference book, Artillery and Ammunition of the Civil War?  I bought my copy in 1973 and it is by far the most used artillery book that Mike and I use.  It's binding is literally falling off, it's been used so much!  Thanks, Lance for making us dig for that info!

Tracy and Mike
Mike and Tracy, that's the book. I always enjoy looking through it every now and then. I have a small collection of books like that,
   and Warren Ripleys is one of my favorites too.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline lance

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2009, 04:42:51 PM »
The newspaper states the Quinlivan was used against the USS Keokuk, which had many round shots and rifle bolts to go completely through her.

The Keokuk was "armored" with "horizontal iron bars alternating with planks of oak wood, sheathed with a boiler iron sheet" (Wikipedia) which turned out to be totally ineffective against even round shot.
GGaskill, that's in Warren Ripleys book too. I haven't looked at wikipedia, but here's a line from the book:Since the Keokuk was an untried vessel,her Commander A.C. Rind, an especially courageous officer, took her in closer than any of the other Monitors, variously estimated at 550 to 900 yards, and stayed there 30 minutes in an effort to find out her capabilities. He discovered they weren't much.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline Double D

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Re: The elusive bullet - Quinlivan -
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2009, 05:30:58 PM »
     Lance,   Did you by any chance get the info and pics from Warren Ripley's great reference book, Artillery and Ammunition of the Civil War?  I bought my copy in 1973 and it is by far the most used artillery book that Mike and I use.  It's binding is literally falling off, it's been used so much!  Thanks, Lance for making us dig for that info!

Tracy and Mike

Thirty-five copies available here.  Artillery and Ammunition of the Civil War