Author Topic: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit? (Read 7200 times)

charles p · « **Reply #30 on:** April 01, 2009, 03:20:53 PM »

What would happen to the big unions if they all had to exist in right to work states, and did not have payroll deduction for dues collection. Do you think their workers would join if they didn't have to and then write a check every payday for union dues? I doubt it. The absolute first bargain a union wants is a check off for dues. They want their money first. Go figure.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #31 on:** April 01, 2009, 03:31:27 PM »

Quote from: jdinil on April 01, 2009, 03:00:24 PM

Dee, If it wasn't for the contributions of the Big 3 and sacrifices of their employees during WW2, you would be speaking German today. You would not have had a Law Enforcement career of any kind. You would not have been qualified for Hitler's SS. How many people have been employed, directly and indirectly over the last 100 years by the US automakers? How soon they forget! Quite frankly, your silly rants are getting a bit old.

our parrents defeated one socialist

just to have this generation to elect one

charles p · « **Reply #32 on:** April 01, 2009, 03:41:25 PM »

When I fly on an airline, a union worker has the right to search my luggage, and his union fights against cameras in the workplace. Why are they allowed to rifle through my luggage and take what they want, and refuse to be watched on camera. Could it be that they are dishonest? Could it be that their union wants to keep crooks on the job, because the crooks support and defend their union and pay their dues for the right to look through luggage for anything of value?

I know a union fellow that says that criminal records should not be checked before people are hired. He says it keeps the best people from applying! How can people be so dumb as the believe this stuff? Union are full of crooks and they want it that way.

Lon371 · « **Reply #33 on:** April 01, 2009, 10:26:08 PM »

Quote

Dee, If it wasn't for the contributions of the Big 3 and sacrifices of their employees during WW2

Pretty sure that was a few years ago.

Lets move up to real time. There are so many Union works who could not make it with out the union. They are the ones that should be scared to death. The rest of us non-union types are worried about the economy, not is the union going to save my butt tomorrow.

Like obama said "IT IS TIME FOR CHANGE!" Union helped get him there!

Lonny

beerbelly · « **Reply #34 on:** April 02, 2009, 02:40:41 AM »

Dee ,I agree with about every thing you said. Unions used to be about workers, now they are about unions and the big dogs that run them. I belonged to a union most of my working life. Never believed in the democrats are for us BS they put out. Never liked the fact that they used my dues money to support democratic candates.
That said if we had not had a union, I would have been working for peanuts, and having to kiss the boss's butt to keep the job. Everything wrong with this economy is not the fault of union members. Greed in big business with the CEO's making more money than you can even imagine.
The government taking away from me and you to give it to the poor(lazy bustards that will not work). Has all sent us to hell.
Old Charlie

Cabin4 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 02, 2009, 03:27:12 AM »

Unions are to blame for the off-shoring of American jobs then any other single controlable reason.

williamlayton · « **Reply #36 on:** April 02, 2009, 04:04:54 AM »

I have been reading this with interest.
Unions were formed by people so that they could have backing when negoiating.
The concept is purely Republican/Republic.
As with all things the concept has gone too seed in many areas.
The union has done a very good job in providing improvements in the work place that would have been ignored by business as a needless waste of money on a repletishable labor supply. And, they didn't care why it needed replentishing.
We have all benefitted from Unions. Our cars/vehicles are more safe because working place safety rolled over into product safety. Wages were influenced by Union wages--not a bad thing.
The middle class came of age because of Unions.
Blessings

Oldshooter · « **Reply #37 on:** April 02, 2009, 05:19:48 AM »

What you said has a lot of truth William. Mostly this:

Quote

As with all things the concept has gone too seed in many areas.

One point we should all remember, If the government was such a benevolent nanny and could see to all our needs why do government employees need/want union representation!

The detroit workers do well to be worried! They either are gonna be out work or they are gonna be working for Odramma and be outa work!

Dee · « **Reply #38 on:** April 02, 2009, 01:54:55 PM »

Quote from: jdinil on April 01, 2009, 03:00:24 PM

Dee, If it wasn't for the contributions of the Big 3 and sacrifices of their employees during WW2, you would be speaking German today. You would not have had a Law Enforcement career of any kind. You would not have been qualified for Hitler's SS. How many people have been employed, directly and indirectly over the last 100 years by the US automakers? How soon they forget! Quite frankly, your silly rants are getting a bit old.

Now that is indeed funny.

If it wasn't for the damn unions and their mafia style NEGOTIATING:o, the "Big 3" as you call them probably wouldn't be crying for a bailout.
Necessity is the motherhood of invention as they say, do away with the unions, and something much better will come along, sans the BEGGING FOR A HANDOUT.

By the way, if it wasn't for LAW ENFOCEMENT, someone would have already stopped by your house, kicked your a$$, and took your computer. Quite frankly I wish they would, your dumbass anology of unions is allready old TO MOST OF THE COUNTRY!

Cabin4 · « **Reply #39 on:** April 02, 2009, 02:41:55 PM »

Nearly $2000 of profit from every Detroit car go to pay the pensions of former employees. FORMER employees. this does not account for deposits that must be made for current employees.

My aunt still collects a pension and full medical and her husband (my uncle) died 15 years ago. He worked for Ford motor in Detroit for about 30 years. He retired early around age 56 and died before he reached 65.

As much as I care about my aunt and I'm gald she is okay, the real question is this rightr??? I don't think so. By the time this is all said and done, Ford will clearly have paid them more in retirement then he made in his 30 years working at Ford. His last day on the job for Ford was back in the mid 80's.

It's no wonder the big 3 are going broke. The Unions are largly to blame. The rest of the auto makers do not have this issue. Imagine what $2000 per car can do to their cash posistion....

Dee · « **Reply #40 on:** April 02, 2009, 03:41:12 PM »

Notice Cabin4, that the UNIONS aren't getting anyone fired, and THEIR not cutting back. None of THEM are working for nothing.
While WE GO TO WORK, or LOOK FOR A JOB, the union members are wailing gimme-gimme, we deserve your tax dollars we're indespenceable! M tax dollar was never meant to go to private industry.
By the way, their building damn good cars down here in the south WITHOUT UNIONS.
Now some may say: Hey those are foreign cars though. Daimler was German, and Fiat is Italian. Reckon those union boys will still work for Chrysler since their FOREIGN?
And you also make a good point with your aunt. If a 60 year old union member marries a 20 year old hottie, and dies of a heart attack, as long as she doesn't remarry, that's a lot of retirement for the next 60 or so years. AhhHemmm! I mean tax dollars.

beerbelly · « **Reply #41 on:** April 02, 2009, 04:55:00 PM »

I bet when you die, you don't give a dam what happens tp your wife .
Beerbelly

Lon371 · « **Reply #42 on:** April 02, 2009, 10:22:16 PM »

Quote

I bet when you die, you don't give a dam what happens tp your wife .
Beerbelly

I think those of us non-union buy what is called life insurance. Which will hopefully maintain their standard of living. We really dont expect our bosses to put them on payroll.

Lonny

Dee · « **Reply #43 on:** April 02, 2009, 11:54:33 PM »

Correct Lon371! Financially I am worth far more dead to my wife. She would probably like the peace and quite too, although she denies it when I ask.

beerbelly · « **Reply #44 on:** April 03, 2009, 12:41:42 AM »

A guy works for a company for 30 or 40 years and earns a pension. at his death the wife usually get 50% of that. Maybe you see some thing wrong with that , I do not. Those large hourly wages you think they are getting , a good portion of that is in pension funds and medical care. The take home is no where near the amounts touted by some.
It's a shame that people don't want anyone to have anything that they don't have.
Just so you will know I get a company pension, A whopping $144.70 a month. I am sure you think I don't deserve it.
Beerbelly

Dee · « **Reply #45 on:** April 03, 2009, 02:50:09 AM »

Quote from: beerbelly on April 03, 2009, 12:41:42 AM

A guy works for a company for 30 or 40 years and earns a pension. at his death the wife usually get 50% of that. Maybe you see some thing wrong with that , I do not. Those large hourly wages you think they are getting , a good portion of that is in pension funds and medical care. The take home is no where near the amounts touted by some.
It's a shame that people don't want anyone to have anything that they don't have.
Just so you will know I get a company pension, A whopping $144.70 a month. I am sure you think I don't deserve it.
Beerbelly

Beerbelly I agree wholeheartedly with you in principle. MY POINT WAS, that it is NOT A WORKING SYSTEM LONG TERM. There are now more people (and the spouses of deceased workers) on RETIREMENT BENEFITS, than there are working in the auto plants with unions. Like it or not, these are the published facts. IT ISN'T WORKING ANY MORE! Just because YOU AGREE, I don't have to. If you are union, and I suspect you are, then by all means draw your "UNION" PENISON. I HOWEVER, am NOT union, do not want to BE union, have NEVER BEEN union, and I DO NOT want to pay YOUR PENISON, or anyone else's.
To be forced to do so, is FORCED CHARITY! Most of America AGREES with me. That is also a "published fact".
I suggest that many need to do as I have done. Buy a "large life insurance policy" for the family. Bottom line! I ain't paying your damn pension unless forced, and then I will do so begrudgingly. You didn't work for me, I owe you nothing!

Cabin4 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 03, 2009, 03:24:12 AM »

Beerbelly,

The point here is that Union pension plans are completly out of step with the rest of the non-union jobs. Teachers unions are just as bad as another example. No one is saying that there should be no pension. The amounts these people are getting is crazy. Its destroying private business like GM, Ford & Chrysler. Its raising taxes on people to pay for teacher unions. Heck, here in California, while everyone has to tighten their belt including the state, the teachers pension fund is getting a cash boost to off-set the equity loses due to the stock market down turn.

Unions are patially to blame for off-shoreing of manufacturing jobs. The high wages and excesive pensions are forcing American companies to seek out lower cost labor so they can continue to compete and sell products abroad. L0ok at whats happened to the short & long haul trucking industry over the years. The unions have evaporated because after the deregulation back in the 80's, the unions shops simply could not compete with their non-union counter parts. Look at what happened to PATCO when they got to greedy and went on strke. They all got fired.

I don't have anything against labor organizing. That is their right. But the Unions seem to never know when to give their labor force the bold truth of whats happening. As a result, labor unions are shrinking due to jobs leaving either off-shore or to non-union shops.

Unions are helping to destroy the very workers they claim to help.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #47 on:** April 03, 2009, 04:31:19 AM »

The auto plants foreign companies built in Alabama are all non-union I think. They are paid higher than the other industries and businesses in the area, and have more benefits. Briggs and Stratton moved from unionized Milwaukee to Auburn, Alabama with non-union labor. Pay is good for those full time employees. They use a lot of part time help with college students though. A lot of the retail stores in the area also use a lot of part time student help. About half of the Auburn University students work part time jobs to get through school.

williamlayton · « **Reply #48 on:** April 03, 2009, 04:52:53 AM »

I don't know who you boys are talking about when it comes too pensions.
I have a retirement pension from a company and social security, my wife has teacher retirement and we contribute $650 a month for medical coverage.
Between the two of us we make ends meet and some amount of expendable cash.
if we want a vacation or major outlays such as a new refirgerator or washer/dryer we must do it out of savings.
money we saved.
No man gets rich working for another and there are plenty of retired plant workers here who will vouch for the same thing.
With my 401 now being a 101, we are on a pretty stiff budget compared too a year ago.
As far as right too work states are concerned, you can bet that Unions influenced the pay that these boys get---and they earn every penny of it.
Blessings

Oldshooter · « **Reply #49 on:** April 03, 2009, 05:47:26 AM »

Quote

With my 401 now being a 101, we are on a pretty stiff budget compared too a year ago.

William i know the feeling, I'm not sure I have 101 anymore! I had to take a job as a drug dealer on the street (Pharmaceutical Delivery) just to have money to hunt and fish with!

Now I DONT HAVE TIME TO HUNT OR FISH !!

williamlayton · « **Reply #50 on:** April 03, 2009, 07:06:02 AM »

Street drug dealer---

I work a couple of days a week at the golf course---my mad money.
Blessings

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #51 on:** April 03, 2009, 08:06:29 AM »

The unions did improve safety , they did get better conditions for workers in some industries . Then they got greedy along with management and both screwed the American car buyer . Like the national home builders they charged what they could not a fair price . Both industries proved this by the cuts in price we are seeing today from both . Don't even think of blaming only management as the rank and file would strike for mo money and the cost would be passed on as it was easier than fighting it.
The guys who are getting the retirement are the ones who in the 70's and 80's built the junk that allowed the cars from Japan to kick their butt and in no small way disrupt our economy .
I don't blame the auto worker they got over on the rest of us . Now they will have to get used to what the rest of us have been getting by on !

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #52 on:** April 03, 2009, 08:08:13 AM »

PS its not drug dealer
its un-documented health aid , we must be PC

Cabin4 · « **Reply #53 on:** April 03, 2009, 10:24:05 AM »

The auto workers overly robust pension plans are being boosted and paid for by the tax payers now. While these same tax payers have seen their personal 401ks turned into 101ks. If this is not total BS, I don't know what is.

The same thing is happening with teacher union pensions. State taxes are going up and the pork laden so called stimulus plan has money in it to replenish money to teacher union pension plans. Again more BS and the average tax payer gets to keep teachers pension "whole" and fully funded, these same tax payers have to suck it all up while the unions get there unfair share of the pie and tax payer exspense.

All thnaks to the corrupt socialist democrates running this forked up country.

BS!!!!!!

williamlayton · « **Reply #54 on:** April 03, 2009, 08:13:19 PM »

Sounds like Obama's health plan. If you are old and can't work you need to die.
Now, dieing ain't that bad an option, but, you need too know which side of the fence you ride there.
It is a gritty question we raise here. In a pure Republic that is a fair assesment, root hog or die. Survival of the fittest or in this case the richest.
Many of us made decisions a long time ago, to base our living on working and saving. We made some contracts with folks too help insure that we could live without being a burden to society--too be independent of folks.
We feel that we are cheated and contracts broken by those who are greedy and do not care what happens to the money we put away for a rainy day--too hell with a contract--times change---to bad. Well anyway, that is my perception.
Now I don't need a handout, not looking for one and trust in another to care for me.
I just feel betrayed too some extent. I didn't offer the contract it was offered to me.
Blessings

billy_56081 · « **Reply #55 on:** April 04, 2009, 04:18:50 AM »

"According to the UAW website a union auto worker returns $206/hour on a $74/hr investment;"

And according to Hillary Clinton, %90 of the guns used in the Drug war in Mexico came from the US. As your old buddy Stalin said " a lie told often enough becomes the truth". http://www.famousquotes.me.uk/lenin/index.htm

I think we are dealing with a myriad of liars here.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #56 on:** April 04, 2009, 04:36:44 AM »

And NO TM7 the above listed was not from the hero to the antisemites Goebels, as you stated in asnother post. I do not and will not believe a post that quotes the UAW web sight anymore than I'd believe any politico.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #57 on:** April 04, 2009, 05:11:59 AM »

Quote from: TM7 on April 04, 2009, 03:50:21 AM

According to the UAW website a union auto worker
..TM7

Ha ha ha!

Nothing like going to an unbiased webite site for that!

Of course the cost of direct materials/parts, R&D, and capitol cost will out weight the pure direct labor componant on the final assembly line! The cost of building the factory and outfitting it with the capitol/machinary are enourmous and so is the R&D. I know where your going with this TM7. But I promise you the 8.4% only includes the final assemmbly labor aspect. What about the labor at their sub-plants to build say the engine or seats??? Since this is realized by the final assembly plant in the direct material costs, not labor??

None of this means anything anyway. I could acctually care less what the unions can or cannot negotiate as long as there no tax payer bail out money going in. Once this happens, then you have by "right" 310 million people on the board of directors. And since I'm one of those 310 million, I say tear-up the union contracts and get rid of the excessive pensions.

nomosendero · « **Reply #58 on:** April 04, 2009, 03:31:21 PM »

"Why don't you find it and present here to support your views?" Why would C-4 spend time to present
information to compare against a lie that the UAW printed. Present truth vs their lie,why?

I see the proof daily, that proof being the former unionized plants that moved South to drive down production cost & increase productivity at the same time. The proof's in the pudding as they say & if the move was a bad thing they would go back, man I am not hearing any of that. It has been a good thing for me & Ind. eq. sales in my part of the world, I guess I should hope that the union folks remain hammerheads but I don't.

jimster · « **Reply #59 on:** April 05, 2009, 03:16:37 AM »

I personally think our own government had a big hand in the decline of the auto industry, 30 years of increased taxes and regulations sucked up a lot of their money that could have stayed with the company, add to that NAFTA. As far as the union goes, there was a time when we did need them, but like any organization that collects people's money they soon become corrupt as well. I do not think we need them to make the work place safer, there are other things in place now for that. My experience with the UAW was limited, worked for a shop over 30 years ago (UAW was finding small manufacturing places to extract money from that had nothing to do with cars), conditions were horrible, pay was very bad, left to go work for a non union shop and have been there over 30 years, conditions were always much better there. Now the people where I work did not make the kind of money someone at GM did, but it was good money and good benifits, fair pay for what you did, and it's still alive and not bankrupt like GM is. Also, fair pay is debatable and everyone has an opinion, but if we all consider the fact that State and Federal governments make it APPEAR like pay is low by stipping your paychecks clean, that will tend to make you think your not getting payed much. 10 bucks per hour is 400 bucks a week if they would let you keep it.....so even that job at the corner gas station/partystore pays pretty good, regarldless of what people say. The only problem we really have is there is always someone wanting our money that has spending problems, doesn't matter if it's our governments, unions, or whoever. We see hard times and do away with cable TV and other things, our government see's hards times and still spends money on the study of pig oder.

If GM does come back and make money, government will just try to confiscate it for their own anyways, so they can spend it, or do something stupid like regulate them away....or worse yet, actually try to RUN the company....oh....they are doing that now....forgot.