Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?

[nomosendero]

Never said that Unions are the SOLE reason for anything but the fruits of their corruption is obvious to anyone who is actually looking.

[jimster]

Yes nomosendero,  and their corruption came from other people's money as well, all corruption has other people's money involved in some way.  The unions did their part of draining the system as well as anyone.  We are the workers, workers make money, we have the only money there is, the places we work for have the only money there is.  When governments, unions, and anyone else that have no money want our money, funny things happen.  When our money shows up in millions, and billions, and trillions and these governments, unions, and people who have none roll around in it for a while, they tend to try to open up the faucets, try to take more, and of course spend more.  The spending of other people's money is a sickness that can only be cured by cutting it off.  As we the people pull back by trying get around taxes and save instead of spend you can plainly see the wthdraw sysmtoms arise in the governments (and unions), they panick, and try to get even more money. When that does not work, they print it, even though they never had to, the money was already in our paychecks and the profits of businesses.....but instead of letting we the people spend it ourselves, they wanted to spend it, need to spend it, need to have it.  It's a sickness that will not go away by itself.  It's much more simple than governments lead you to believe.  We don't have an economic problem, we have a problem with a sickness that affects behavior.

[billy_56081]

"UAW leaders have compiled data from the Harbour Report, a respected annual study of manufacturing efficiency, that they contend show union labor is more efficient than nonunion labor at auto assembly plants where direct comparisons can be made."


More unbiased facts TM?

So is a guy who uses false information to back up their opions as guilty as the liar themselves?

[jdinil]

That was an interesting comment, Dee. NOBODY is coming out here and taking my computer or anything else. We don't call Law Enforcement here either. Never.  When something happens, we handle it ourselves. Involving Law Enforcement usually just makes things worse. I have seen it too many times. I have no problem with those of you who live in Right to Starve states. If you want to live on half the money the rest of us make, so be it. Another thing many never consider, is the wide range of product the Big 3 produce. Need a new ambulance chassis? Opps, Honda doesn't make them.  Need a 15 passenger van for the nursing home? Opps, Honda doesn't build them. Need a one ton truck out on the farm? Honda can't supply that either. Does the local body shop need a new tow truck? It won't be a Honda! The school district needs a new school bus? It won't say Honda on the front of it. The building contractor needs to pull a heavy trailer to the job site? Honda can't pull that either. What I am saying is that comparing the Big 3 to the Rice boys is like comparing apples and oranges. Their businesses are entirely different. If all a company builds is a limited lineup consisting of cheap little cars and toy trucks, they can probably compete very well in that segment. Dee, you are entitled to your opinion. And I'm entitled to mine. The difference? Your's is wrong.

[45-70.gov]

That was an interesting comment, Dee. NOBODY is coming out here and taking my computer or anything else. We don't call Law Enforcement here either. Never.  When something happens, we handle it ourselves. Involving Law Enforcement usually just makes things worse. I have seen it too many times. I have no problem with those of you who live in Right to Starve states. If you want to live on half the money the rest of us make, so be it. Another thing many never consider, is the wide range of product the Big 3 produce. Need a new ambulance chassis? Opps, Honda doesn't make them.  Need a 15 passenger van for the nursing home? Opps, Honda doesn't build them. Need a one ton truck out on the farm? Honda can't supply that either. Does the local body shop need a new tow truck? It won't be a Honda! The school district needs a new school bus? It won't say Honda on the front of it. The building contractor needs to pull a heavy trailer to the job site? Honda can't pull that either. What I am saying is that comparing the Big 3 to the Rice boys is like comparing apples and oranges. Their businesses are entirely different. If all a company builds is a limited lineup consisting of cheap little cars and toy trucks, they can probably compete very well in that segment. Dee, you are entitled to your opinion. And I'm entitled to mine. The difference? Your's is wrong.

the right to starve states  are  bailing  out  the  parasidic  union states

we are still  working.......union jobs go overseas

i  was in the carpenter union  for 12 years   
they support gungrabbing democrats
i  make a lot more money now  than  i did as a union work
so  much  for starving
but  many  can't make it  on their   own  and  need representation
they  are called  liberals  too

[Cabin4]

Unions have become too powerful and selfish. They have gone far past representing workers rights to becoming nothing more than an extension of the socialist, gun grabbing, big government, big tax movement

[Dee]

That was an interesting comment, Dee. NOBODY is coming out here and taking my computer or anything else. We don't call Law Enforcement here either. Never.  When something happens, we handle it ourselves. Involving Law Enforcement usually just makes things worse. I have seen it too many times. I have no problem with those of you who live in Right to Starve states. If you want to live on half the money the rest of us make, so be it. Another thing many never consider, is the wide range of product the Big 3 produce. Need a new ambulance chassis? Opps, Honda doesn't make them.  Need a 15 passenger van for the nursing home? Opps, Honda doesn't build them. Need a one ton truck out on the farm? Honda can't supply that either. Does the local body shop need a new tow truck? It won't be a Honda! The school district needs a new school bus? It won't say Honda on the front of it. The building contractor needs to pull a heavy trailer to the job site? Honda can't pull that either. What I am saying is that comparing the Big 3 to the Rice boys is like comparing apples and oranges. Their businesses are entirely different. If all a company builds is a limited lineup consisting of cheap little cars and toy trucks, they can probably compete very well in that segment. Dee, you are entitled to your opinion. And I'm entitled to mine. The difference? Your's is wrong.

If I am wrong then the majority of the country is wrong. We simply don't want to bail out YOUR NORTHERN NON-WORKING UNION ORGANIZED CRIME CONTROLLED Crap.
I don't care what kind of car, bus, fire truck, or buggy you drive, or anyone else for that matter. I OWE YOU NOTHING! UNION JOB GOING OVERSEAS? Find another job, and contact your union steward for a handout. I'm not giving you one, unless forced by the government.

[45-70.gov]

That was an interesting comment, Dee. NOBODY is coming out here and taking my computer or anything else. We don't call Law Enforcement here either. Never.  When something happens, we handle it ourselves. Involving Law Enforcement usually just makes things worse. I have seen it too many times. I have no problem with those of you who live in Right to Starve states. If you want to live on half the money the rest of us make, so be it. Another thing many never consider, is the wide range of product the Big 3 produce. Need a new ambulance chassis? Opps, Honda doesn't make them.  Need a 15 passenger van for the nursing home? Opps, Honda doesn't build them. Need a one ton truck out on the farm? Honda can't supply that either. Does the local body shop need a new tow truck? It won't be a Honda! The school district needs a new school bus? It won't say Honda on the front of it. The building contractor needs to pull a heavy trailer to the job site? Honda can't pull that either. What I am saying is that comparing the Big 3 to the Rice boys is like comparing apples and oranges. Their businesses are entirely different. If all a company builds is a limited lineup consisting of cheap little cars and toy trucks, they can probably compete very well in that segment. Dee, you are entitled to your opinion. And I'm entitled to mine. The difference? Your's is wrong.

If I am wrong then the majority of the country is wrong. We simply don't want to bail out YOUR NORTHERN NON-WORKING UNION ORGANIZED CRIME CONTROLLED Crap.
I don't care what kind of car, bus, fire truck, or buggy you drive, or anyone else for that matter. I OWE YOU NOTHING! UNION JOB GOING OVERSEAS? Find another job, and contact your union steward for a handout. I'm not giving you one, unless forced by the government.

dee
  i  like  you  even  tho i  bumped  heads  with  you a few  times before
but  i  really think  you spoke  for  me there....couldn't  agree  more

[SHOOTALL]

did i miss something ?
for every dollar invested in an employee they get 2.75 dollars in return ?

[curtism1234]

Nearly $2000 of profit from every Detroit car go to pay the pensions of former employees.

I'm not sure where this number came from but it's 100% incorrect


The truth is that legacy costs (everything for the retired workers) are paid in full every single year THROUGH INTEREST ALONE on money that's in the pension fund.

The fable that legacy costs are killing the auto industry is a complete lie made up by the auto industry. The truth is they want to get their hands on protected money (that they don't need) and they're mad because they can't.

[SHOOTALL]

where did the fund get funded ?

[curtism1234]

Labor costs (active and retired put together) account for less than 10% of the sales price on a car (more like 7-8%). The $2000 dollar price is correct if you account for ALL LABOR COSTS. By manufacturing standards, that is a very very low number. The auto industry is very efficient considering it takes 2-3 days to make a car from start to finish passing through the hands of how many people???

When the lines are running, Ford's average profit made is $10,000 per minute


And people want to make the assembly line workers out to be lazy and not deserving of a retirement (which falls in half anyway when they are elgible for social security). They work 30 years in 110 degree heat in the winter time without having the time to get a drink of water before another car rolls by.
They deserve every penny they get.

[SHOOTALL]

In the plumbing industry the cost labor for one man ( a lead man ) for 3 days would be $544.32 . profit if all is good $55.00 . Excuse me if i don't feel sorry for someone working inside with out mud .

[Cabin4]

Nearly $2000 of profit from every Detroit car go to pay the pensions of former employees.

I'm not sure where this number came from but it's 100% incorrect


The truth is that legacy costs (everything for the retired workers) are paid in full every single year THROUGH INTEREST ALONE on money that's in the pension fund.

The fable that legacy costs are killing the auto industry is a complete lie made up by the auto industry. The truth is they want to get their hands on protected money (that they don't need) and they're mad because they can't.

Ifn order for you to be correct, it implies that if GM, Ford or Chrysler closed their doors today, no current retiree or future retiree will need to worry about their pension. Because as you say the fund can pay all current and future obligations from curent funds & interest and without any additional new capitol !!

[curtism1234]

Nearly $2000 of profit from every Detroit car go to pay the pensions of former employees.

I'm not sure where this number came from but it's 100% incorrect


The truth is that legacy costs (everything for the retired workers) are paid in full every single year THROUGH INTEREST ALONE on money that's in the pension fund.

The fable that legacy costs are killing the auto industry is a complete lie made up by the auto industry. The truth is they want to get their hands on protected money (that they don't need) and they're mad because they can't.

Ifn order for you to be correct, it implies that if GM, Ford or Chrysler closed their doors today, no current retiree or future retiree will need to worry about their pension. Because as you say the fund can pay all current and future obligations from curent funds & interest and without any additional new capitol !!

Correct, there is enough money to cover it.

The worry is how bankruptcy would affect the fund. To some degree, it's protected. But I'm not sure how it will work.

That would scare any employee of any company.

[jdinil]

Dee, your bulb is too dim to understand what I said. What I said, is if the Big 3 fail, the types of vehicles I mentioned won't be available. These types of vehicles are the backbone of commerce and business. If they fail, NO ONE will be driving one.  As to your "Northern Non working" comment, have I got a deal for you!  I'm an old guy, retired from Caterpillar. I own and operate Central Illinois grain farms. Just bring your scrawny little Southern butt up here. I'll put you to work and work you right into the rich, black ground. I have done this for over 50 years. And worked a full time job untill I retired. But be forewarned. There will be no sitting around in a patrol car stuffing your mouth with donuts on this job! And you'll only get a break if I take one! I worked around union men at Cat that could literally work you to death, in the ground dead, in 2 hours. Gauranteed. Try throwing D9 or D10 track shoes, by hand, for 8 to 12 hours per day in 100+ degree heat, day after day. Those men have earned every penny of their union wages and benefits. And then some. Yes, they did get a 20 minute lunch break and a 10 minute break each morning and afternoon. TIMED breaks, by the way. You talk about unions and work. You don't have the beginning of a clue. You need to hit the nearest donut shop and think things over before you spout off anymore. You really do!  What would a cop know about real work anyway? Like I said, you're welcome anytime. I WILL put you to work! And when you leave here, you will finally know what work is!

[jdinil]

TM7, I think it is a lot of things. Some of which you have mentioned. I am no expert on the auto manufacturers. But I do know a lot about working in a heavy industry in a UAW enviornment. In the Big 3's case, I think some of it is just that they are old line companies. They operated with older plants and outdated processes for a long time. The company I worked for was the same way. When the foreign companies really started to eat market share, Detroit finally began to respond. But, they had a lot of costly catching up to do. That hurt them. Some of the higher legacy costs are a problem for them. But those legacy costs are somewhat because they were so successful. 100 year old companies will have legacy costs, with or without unions. Company people have much better pensions and benefits that UAW people do. At least where I worked. Would they rather operate without unions? Sure, I think so.  If for no other reason than it would be one less entity to deal with.  Increasing government regulatory costs (OSHA, EPA and taxing laws)  are a big factor. Yes, all the car companies operate under basically the same regulations. But, Detroit had to modernize and retrofit their older facilities. The Japanese plants were greenfield plants. Built from the ground up to conform to the EPA etc.  Emission standards are a huge and very expensive problem. Yes, they all have to meet the same standards, but I am sure Detroit spends the bulk of the R&D dollars for this. Japanese maunufactures have always been  notorious for "copying". In fact, the company I worked for recently decided to quit the on-road diesel truck engine business for that very reason. Costs for R&D to meet ever tightening emission standards has become to much to recoup. So they are going to invest that money in more profitable segments of their business. Car prices are just too high. But more of the cost in a car is from meeting government regulations, than there is for ALL the labor costs in that same vehicle! Really, that is just absurd. But I can tell you from my experience around the UAW plants of my former employer, most of the UAW men and women worked hard for their wages and benefits. Some of them had very, very physically demanding jobs. And the UAW folks wanted to see the company succeed as much as the company employees did. Do I think these companies might be "playing" a bit concerning the bailout deal and so forth? Yes, I think that could be true. Big companies will try any and all angles to garner more revenue. It's built into their genes! Summing up though, I do not believe the UAW is the bugaboo some of the posters on here think they are. I have dealt with UAW folks for decades. For the most part, they are good people trying to make the best living they can for their families. Remember, the ultimate business decisions are made by CEO's and Boards of Directors. Not union stewards and committeemen. Detroit has problems, including some that unions might try to help solve. But their problems are much more than just that. Will they succeed? I hope so. Thousands and thousands of jobs are dependant on their success. And have been for decades. The car companies are a huge part of our economy.

[williamlayton]

What organized labor did created the American middle class.
Right to work states still have unions.
A union worker can be lazy but it is not because of the union---translation, some folks are just lazy. They can and do get fired.
Now, I do believe that much of what unions do, has gone too seed.
Much of what they do is better for the American economy than bailouts.
Everybody wants assurances that any pension they worked hard for is protected as much as possible, by men who take this money as a personal challange too protect and grow it.
Corporations have become laden, at the top, with men who are takers for their own gain without any sense of responsibility for the corporation.
This same attitude is found in many mom/pop, small businesses--owners without any sense of responsibility to their employees.
Blessings

[jdinil]

William, you are correct in that assessment, I believe. Lazy folks can be, and are, from all walks of life. Sure, I saw lazy people at my former employers facilities.  But, thankfully, they were of a very small minority. Both in the UAW ranks and the Company ranks. But, usually the lazy one were weeded out eventually. Yes, a man works hard all his life to get that pension at the end. Some on here think that pensions should be taken from them because of many factors which are beyond the employees control. Where do these ideas come from?  Pensions are earned as part of one's compensation. They are NOT a gift from the employer, anymore than a paycheck is a gift!

[curtism1234]

First off, I do appreciate a civil conversation, debate, whatever we call it. Most union threads would of already gone out of control by now 
I've got a busy weekend, so this will likely be my last post on this topic.


TM7

There are many factors contributing to the Big 3's problems (honda is now having those same problems and toyota is likely to follow if the recession goes on for a few more years).

The biggest problem for the Big 3 was oil prices. For years, they prototyped new cars and tried to get back in the car market. The public made it very clear they wouldn't buy cars. They wanted trucks and SUVs. The auto makers had no choice but to make them.
So when oil went so high, the Big 3 had a very limited car line whereas the forgein makes ruled that roost.
I'm sure not going to be seen in a Ford Taurus or Focus  
Now that they have some decent cars worth buying, we have gas back down to $2.00. Guess what, those people who are buying are buying trucks and SUVs again !
Same thing happened in 70's and 80's. Oil went higher so the auto makers came out with some fuel effiecent vehicles. Big oil saw this and intentionally dropped the price then AND NOW because they need Americans to drive large cars, vans, trucks, etc

The next problem is Toyota and Honda undermining America. Americans don't have any loyalty to America or their products anymore. Toyota intentionally set up shop and embraced the anti-union South knowing they could get away with paying less money. All of a sudden Toyota is so great because they are now an American company. They aren't passing any savings onto the American consumer though --- that money is going straight back overseas. So when American workers make less money (and UAW workers get laid off in the process), many different sectors of America are affected by less spending power on behalf of the consumer.

GM however decided they would expand GMAC into a bank.  
Good in good times; bad in bad times  
They really paid the price on that...but I don't believe it was a nail in the coffin by any means.

Now we can start looking into the smoke and mirrors.
To think GM is unable to operate is a bit neive. I believe they have so much cash sitting overseas and the company has done an excellant job hiding it. They want to bust the union and will go through bankruptcy to do it. They want to be just like Toyota --- cut employee costs 1/3 to a 1/2 and sell their products for the same price they always did.
Ford is not so worried about this because they don't need bankruptcy to harm the unions. They know their contracts expire last. With the UAW harmed through the restructure of GM and Chrysler, the UAW of ford isn't going to have a leg to stand on.
Not that the UAW is as strong as it used to be. As another poster said, they have got into politics and away from the struggle of the working and middle class.
All too often the UAW leader is in cahoots with the plant superintendent (many times even being related by blood, marriage, prior association, or just good ol' fashion wheelin and dealin).


To sum it up in the order of what has caused this mess
1. Oil prices - Without the oil spike and recession, the Big 3 would be thriving.  
2. The infiltration of foreign makers into the US and failure of the American consumer to recognize the harm caused by it
3. The auto makers taking advantage of the mess, fudging numbers, and hiding money in effort to bust the union. I can't say they like Toyota being in the country, but so long as they are here they'll take whatever they can get out of it. If the unions are successfully "put in their place" (which I think will happen), then all 4 companies should be able to coexist and everyone (they) is happy again.


I think the harm caused by all of this is going to last a very very long time. Like them or not, unions dictate wages in non-union factories, salaried jobs in factories, and even retail stores. If the unions fail in the auto plants, then we have a huge mess. Manufacturing is such a large part of our economy. Wages of
$35,000-60,000 dollars a year drops down to $20,000-40,000 dollars a year. That affects every single person in the United States. And that's where we're at right now. I don't see anything changing in the near future.

[Oldshooter]

Let me state that I for One do not hold anything against anyone who is a member of a Union or trys to better themselves and families by being in a Union.

My problem with unions is the corrupt Leaders of unions who use union dues to promote illegal activity and buy politicians.

These people(members) are human beings that are doing the same thing that the management is doing, Trying to make the most money for their efforts!

Randy

[Brett]

Curtis, not trying to pick an argument but aren't the foreign manufacturers selling their products to the same fickle market as the US auto makers?  How is it Honda and Toyota continue to sell economical cars as well as trucks and SUVs but the US automakers are 'forced' to make almost nothing but gas guzzling trucks and SUVs?   Could it be that the US auto makers see more profit per unit selling trucks and SUVs so that's all they are interested in making? 

[curtism1234]

Brett, a lot of that is true.


The Ford F-150 was once again the number 1 selling vehicle in the world last year. The markup on those trucks are pretty darn large so it's safe to say they use that profit to subsidize other models with lower markup. The Ford Fusion was going to have a low markup so they decided to build it in Mexico. This was a huge backfire as they soon found out that loyal Ford buyers WILL NOT buy a Mexican made car --- Ford management said that in public. Right now there are plans to build the fusion in the US again but that will take a bit of time to work out.
All the companies have a very good understanding of brand loyalty and would like repeat customers though. As I said, the car business in the US was bust but the mini-van and SUV replaced the car. So the Big 3 understood the concept of product diversification. Unfortunatly oil climbed, demands changed, and it takes several years to design and build a car.


Toyota has always had their compact truck (ranger, s10 size) in America. They've timed this right. People started buying their cars that they were already producing and Toyota came out with the Tundra as part of their brand loyalty.
They didn't want a Camry owner going out and buying a Silverado because in another 5 years they might be tempted to buy an Impala.
Actually, they got into the truck business late in the game --- around 2000 I believe --- but it worked out for them.


What puts Toyota ahead of the pack is they are the #1 auto maker in the world. This was the first quarter Toyota lost money.
Ford actually has a lot of european and Australian exposure and a very strong car line over there. Ford World continues to make money every quarter. It's just that they are struggling in North America because of consumer tastes changed.

That is why GM is hurt so bad. It doesn't have a whole lot of world exposure to help easy the pain.
Chryler was still trying to build up assets when this mess hit so they didn't have the cash flow the other 2 did...does...


I do have to get going.
Have a good Easter

[Dee]

Dee, your bulb is too dim to understand what I said. What I said, is if the Big 3 fail, the types of vehicles I mentioned won't be available. These types of vehicles are the backbone of commerce and business. If they fail, NO ONE will be driving one.  As to your "Northern Non working" comment, have I got a deal for you!  I'm an old guy, retired from Caterpillar. I own and operate Central Illinois grain farms. Just bring your scrawny little Southern butt up here. I'll put you to work and work you right into the rich, black ground. I have done this for over 50 years. And worked a full time job untill I retired. But be forewarned. There will be no sitting around in a patrol car stuffing your mouth with donuts on this job! And you'll only get a break if I take one! I worked around union men at Cat that could literally work you to death, in the ground dead, in 2 hours. Gauranteed. Try throwing D9 or D10 track shoes, by hand, for 8 to 12 hours per day in 100+ degree heat, day after day. Those men have earned every penny of their union wages and benefits. And then some. Yes, they did get a 20 minute lunch break and a 10 minute break each morning and afternoon. TIMED breaks, by the way. You talk about unions and work. You don't have the beginning of a clue. You need to hit the nearest donut shop and think things over before you spout off anymore. You really do!  What would a cop know about real work anyway? Like I said, you're welcome anytime. I WILL put you to work! And when you leave here, you will finally know what work is!

Well genius if you really knew anything about me, you would know that I worked several jobs while still a police. One was hauling cattler and grain, on off hours and weekends. Both my grandfathers were farmers, and my dad farmed. I'm 60 yoa, and I doubt you'd work me or anyone else in my family in the ground. You might stand around and tells us all how much you know. That seems to be most prevelent in your neck of the woods.
After 20 years of that I started a trucking business which was not only successful but, I later sold for a profit.
What do I know about donuts? Not much, don't eat'em. What do I know about unions. A bunch! I STILL pull into union docks and cringe as they are on the average the most spoiled and lazy human beings in the work force. One union member will look at the load, another will EVENTUALLY get around to finding a UNION inspector, whom will EVENTUALLY get around to inspecting the SEALS on the trailer. A very specialized job looking at cable seals and comparing them with the manifest. Then, if your lucky they MIGHT get you unloaded that day, IF they aren't busy takeing a LONG break, or just hidin out. If someone steps out of his job description and say moves an empty pallet, then the man responsible for moving the empty pallet gets a grievence filed against him.
I have found this to be prevelaent ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES, and some of the most obnoxious were up around the Illinois area, where I held a dedicated contract delivering air frieght around O'hare for 6 years. Your to me, a typical damn Illinois know it all yankee whom claims to work harder than anyone else, and knows what's best ESPECIALLY if it's a handout to a union. Like I said before. I OWE YOU NOTHING! Union or not.

[jdinil]

Dee, you are absolutely right. You owe me nothing. I don't want anything from you. I doubt you have anything I want or need.  I think you are a typical blowhard Southerner. I, too, have been all over the country. No where is more ignornant BS spread than in the South. You sir, are a prime example of that.  By the way, do you know that most of the really diehard UAW members at Cat were Southern boys? They invaded in droves in the late 1940's, 1950's and 60's. The same thing in happened in Detroit. There was one Southern boy president of a 25,000 member Cat UAW Local who got his first pair of shoes when he got his mandatory safety shoes for factory work. He told me that himself. They left the South because there was nothing down there. They didn't want their families to starve to death. Most of them are retired now and have moved back down south. They are spending their UAW savings accounts and pensions and 401k's down there now. And thereby helping the poor Southern economy out. Most all of them were good men, huge BSer's, but basically good men! Anyway, my offer is still open. I've seen those sorry excuses of Southern farms. I'm confident can give you a new appreciation of the word work! And I bet those old Southern UAW boys could too. They learned how to work in those Northern plants. They had to. Or they were out the door and headed back down South.  I think you are just a lot of talk and not much more. I doubt you would make a pimple on a real working man's butt.

[Dee]

Your a funny guy jdinil. An obnoxious yankee socialist yes, but that is to be expected. With that said, I will conclude my and your pissing contest with the fact that you are an irretrievable socialist that believes in big government, and wants the handouts.
Lincoln is no doubt your hero, and well he should be. He too was a socialist, as is the corrupt politicians that your gimme a handout state historically produces.
As far as me coming up there, I won't be doing that. We have enough damn yankees down here with out me INTENTIONALLY subjecting myself to your brand of idiocy, by moving among you.
SO! With that said our conversation comes to an end with the same decision. You socialist yankee beggars ain't gettin my money for your failing unions if I can help it. 

[Cheesehead]

When you say "Yankee" do you mean everybody north of the Mason/dixon line?

Cheese

[nomosendero]

Dee, you are absolutely right. You owe me nothing. I don't want anything from you. I doubt you have anything I want or need.  I think you are a typical blowhard Southerner. I, too, have been all over the country. No where is more ignornant BS spread than in the South. You sir, are a prime example of that.  By the way, do you know that most of the really diehard UAW members at Cat were Southern boys? They invaded in droves in the late 1940's, 1950's and 60's. The same thing in happened in Detroit. There was one Southern boy president of a 25,000 member Cat UAW Local who got his first pair of shoes when he got his mandatory safety shoes for factory work. He told me that himself. They left the South because there was nothing down there. They didn't want their families to starve to death. Most of them are retired now and have moved back down south. They are spending their UAW savings accounts and pensions and 401k's down there now. And thereby helping the poor Southern economy out. Most all of them were good men, huge BSer's, but basically good men! Anyway, my offer is still open. I've seen those sorry excuses of Southern farms. I'm confident can give you a new appreciation of the word work! And I bet those old Southern UAW boys could too. They learned how to work in those Northern plants. They had to. Or they were out the door and headed back down South.  I think you are just a lot of talk and not much more. I doubt you would make a pimple on a real working man's butt.

"By the way, do you know that most of the really diehard UAW members at Cat were Southern boys"  Well, that would be where alot of those hard workers you were talking about earlier came from, note you said most. And no doubt, Yankee boys would haver never hired them except for the fact that they were better workers, absolutely no other reason since they don't like Southerners.

"I've seen those sorry excuses of Southern Farms". Wow, what a outdated remark, esp. considering how farms have evolved in this area within the last 30 years or so. Near me is Adams land Co. with the most modern & largest Cotton Gin in the World with all of the farm laid out very nice. We have very well kept Rice Farms in the area as well, farm weath & the resulting quality of farms have changed alot in the last few years & I have seen fine farms up North as well, your statement is outdated.

Outdated as well is these stories of mass migration to the North for work. That happened alot with the generation
in their 60's and older, basically your age as you stated, not any more. In fact, it is the other way around now, we get plants in this part of the World every year & the reason is to leave the Unions. A few people come with the plants, an undesirable by-product, but most workers will be locals. So again, your view is outdated. As I said before, I see Industrial Equipment & the Northern Union Know-It-All Mentality has helped me alot, I guess I should say keep it coming, but since it is bad for the country I know I should focus on the big picture.

[45-70.gov]

When you say "Yankee" do you mean everybody north of the Mason/dixon line?

Cheese

i  think he  is
and  i bet  he is  including  my  yankee  mom
my   brother has never forgin  her for it

did  i just admit to  being  a half breed yankee...don't stread it around

[jdinil]

Dee, you are wrong AGAIN! I am a conservative. I vote Republican almost always. I own firearms. That's why I am on this forum to begin with. I live 180 miles from the Chicago cesspool.  I'm against abortion.  I said I worked AROUND UAW people. And, I think Lincoln made some major mistakes. The start of the erosion of State's Rights being one of them. I believe there have been much better presidents than Lincoln. What I am saying, for sure, is that the unions are not the sole source of the auto makers woes. They are not. You backwater hillbillies have limited experience with unions. So you are against them and afraid of them. Your "right to work" politicians have spread the vilification of unions to the unwashed masses in the South since the 1930's. The old plantation owner mentality. And you fall for it hook, line and sinker. Then so be it. I know inate intelligence is a rare commodity down there. Just keep that "right to starve" mentality! It's your god given right to do so. As to a pissing match. Well, I don't really consider this to be that much of one. You are entitled to your opinions. I have rather enjoyed this and have been amused by what you have been calling me. Remember, I'm a cold, hardhearted, Northerner. And not much gets to us. I'll leave it at that. Maybe we will have other discussions down the road!