Author Topic: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?  (Read 7177 times)

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Offline Cabin4

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #150 on: April 14, 2009, 11:42:35 AM »
TM7,

The term capitalism my have been a term coined later but it was always our practice. Thre new words added to the dictionary all the time. That does not constitute invention.

I do not advocate for Globalization but do advocate for trading with the globe. As I said in my last post, trade with many, ally with none is a Jeffersonian philosophy. True Globalization for a NWO requires allying with other countries and adopting their principals. I reject this aspect of globalization completely and the two do not have to be connected.

I do not advocate for eliminating our borders. In fact, I advocate for shoring them up, stemming the tide of all immigration including work VISA's and maintaining our sovereignty as a nation is my primary desire. I would kick the UN off our soil and detach from them in this on-going organized manner.

Yes, I also agree that the cars coming out of Detroit are not garbage. My point was that tomorrow they could change. We know what history tells us on this. In any case, Washington should not tell us what cars to buy. Individuals should make that choice was my point.

I'm oaky with you calling my economic principals Darwinian. But remember, my primary focus is on the role of government, maintaining our sovereignty and the principals of our constitution. My opinion is clear. The government has no role under the constitution in these manners and in fact it violates the principals as set forth in our founding. The government’s role should be limited to providing the most favorable economic environment for companies to operate on our soil. This will not eliminate off-shoring of jobs but it will aid in reducing it. Yes, workers here will not be able to compete with $1 hr wages in China. Well, then they don’t in that particular case. There are added costs of business with manufacturing off-shore and it the “total landed costs” that companies use to determine out sourcing initiatives. The cost of moving the goods back on shore to the US, risk assesment, Taxes, regulation, legal entity costs, in region resources to manage the extended operations are all cost component of the analysis.

I don’t think the USA needs to be the wealthiest country on the planet. We just need to be true to our constitution and founding principles. A good, free, self determined and safe life will come from this for our citizens. If these principals don’t fit well with some folks, they could leave or never come here to begin with.

I could easily call your concepts of economics based on Socialism and perhaps they are. Only you can clarify that.




Avery Hayden Wallace
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Offline jimster

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #151 on: April 14, 2009, 12:04:13 PM »
"Now we have the other side of the dialectic in power"

Sure could have fooled me...I still pretty much see the same 535 people there.  ::)

I'm not so sure changing the "head" of the socialists is the other side??  Guess someone has to explain the difference...I'm kind of dense I guess.  They all look the same to me as last year.  Biden might look better....(face lift?)

Far as unions go,  I don't care if there are unions or not, long as they leave me alone and let me work.  The people should be able to vote for them, or not.
Getting forced into one is not so good.  Our company does not have one,  not nearlyy enough people wanted them when they came knocking, we sent them on their way twice since I've been there in my 30 + years.  Strangely enough...it was the car unions that came to us...we don't build cars...LOL!!
My experience has not been good with the unions in this area many years ago, others may have had a good experience...but truth is everyone has a hand in my paycheck now, and I could not afford a good union either, and would not want to lose everything we gained all these years and start bargaining from scratch again either, which is what would happen if one came in.  I suppose if you've not been working the past 25 years and made the same as you did while working the first 25, you may have a different view...but that's awful hard on a company to pay people for not being there at all...ain't it?

Why can't people all get together, a whole bunch of them if they are unhappy...and walk right up to the main office by themsleves with a beef?  Seems to me it gets results as good as one union steward who is a kiss butt (after so many years the union reps are worthless) I saw this happen once...a whole dept of people had a beef with some boss...all went to the big house...shut production right down in a whole section.  They got rid of the boss. No union needed there.  Happy people work harder.

We did not pay quite as well as GM did....but it was a good living for most all people, they were offered education and classes to better themselves on site, and if they wanted to go to school, and could pass...our company paid that too.  We are still alive too.  But nobody gets paid for not working either, so there is a trade off I guess.... ;)  When I worked for a union many years ago, I never did figure out what they offered for my money, if you went above and beyond, too bad, seniority got the job even though he was not the best at it.  How does that help a company?




Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #152 on: April 14, 2009, 02:08:04 PM »
Quote
Biden might look better....(face lift?)

Which brings up a thought I had the other day. biden looks just like the old Puppet that Jeff Dunham has called Walter did you notice when he was standing behind odrama when he gave his speech in the House.
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Offline jdinil

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #153 on: April 15, 2009, 02:40:11 AM »
Dee, I'm still reading these replies. I wonder why though. My Dad used to have a little saying. "You might as well go talk to a fence post as that guy, because a post is smarter than he is"

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #154 on: April 15, 2009, 03:56:56 AM »
or better yet would you want a union made post 1964 Winchester mod. 70 ?
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #155 on: April 20, 2009, 12:25:46 PM »
or better yet would you want a union made post 1964 Winchester mod. 70 ?



;D ;D ;D

No, but I wouldn't mind getting one of those new, quality Southern ones.  ;)

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Offline Skunk

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #156 on: April 20, 2009, 12:36:35 PM »
or better yet would you want a union made post 1964 Winchester mod. 70 ?

No problem, I'll take them.
Mike

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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #157 on: April 20, 2009, 01:21:59 PM »
Fellows I have been watching what is going on for many years now.  I have seen several airlines in the Air Line industry go belly up.  Seen Chrysler go belly up, then get bailed out.  Seen Studebaker move to Canada, then go belly up.  Now Ford and GM are experiencing troubles.  They all airline, auto, and other manufacturing companies, have one thing in common.  In the years when they are young lean companies, they do great.  Profit margins are good, paying investors good dividends.  Remember back in the 50s and 60s air lines fed you well on all trips, even the short ones.  But then as their work force aged and people started retiring, they started cutting back on some of the niceties, As more and more people continued to retire, more cut backs.  Back in the early days, life expectancy was not all that great after retirement either, five years on average, so the companies did not have to pay retirement for long. 

Now things have changed, the total people retiring in the last few years have been much greater than in years past.  I don't think the companies have been planning for that.  And the life expectancy has greatly increased.  Many people are retiring early from one company and then going to another and starting over with an entirely new retirement program.  Where they retire with two complete retirements at the ages ranging from 55 to 65. 

Since these companies have not planned for this they are caught in a position where they are going into the Red every month now having to pay those large retirements, and benifits packages.  That is why so many manufacturing companies have already declared bankruptcy and turned their retirement packages over to the Federal Government.

My personal opinion is that there is much more to come.  Especially as the population ages.   
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #158 on: April 21, 2009, 10:39:40 AM »

                                      The union didn't shut down manufacturing in this country, The EPA did. In concert with the government taxing the hell out of them. They left this country and went where the could make a profit.
                                       Beerbelly

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #159 on: April 21, 2009, 10:59:35 AM »
The demands of the Unions clearly plaed a significant role in outsourcing and or off-shoring. It's not the only reason, but one of many. Other contributing factors are the one's you mentioned including our litigation laws when it comes to IP infringement and our corp tax structure.

The liberals all helped build this disaster and now they want to blame the very businesses they crushed with their laws & regulation. Thanks to our horrible main stream media, they get away with with.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #160 on: April 22, 2009, 02:55:56 AM »
Cabin the short version is the idoits priced themselves out of a job . The housing industry followed their path to a "T".
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Offline curtism1234

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #161 on: April 22, 2009, 11:35:18 AM »
Yeah, regulations and cost drove the companies out if the US --- only because they don't want to play on a level playing field. If saving a single penny means giving you unhealthy/unsafe products made in sweatshops, they'll do it !!!


For those who don't like what the EPA, unions, etc have done, I suggest you read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #162 on: April 22, 2009, 02:00:28 PM »
What do you want companies to do? go out of business? The need to complete with companies from Europe and Asia.....that are tapping into these low cost labor markets as well.

To say that producing products off shore creates unsafe products is rediculous. We are not talking about toy production here. We are talking about real manufacturing jobs like auto, electronic, mechanical, farm implements, etc.
Avery Hayden Wallace
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Offline Cheesehead

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #163 on: April 23, 2009, 02:21:01 AM »
India is mass producing a new sub compact they will not even let into the country.

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Offline curtism1234

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #164 on: April 23, 2009, 04:15:53 AM »
What do you want companies to do? go out of business?

Yes

If small (or large for that matter) United States companies can not make a profit by paying a fair wage in the United States, they have no business staying open.
The company needs to be bought out and whatever they are manufacturing needs to be produced by a larger and more efficient company.

Let me be clear that I'm not anti-small business. If a small business treats it's employees well, offers a good product, and can make a profit --- well that's great.


As far as cheaper products from Asia and Mexico, that is a problem. If it's even 10 cents cheaper, the US consumers will buy the products. The importation of those items are killing the US economy and people don't realize that. Costs for US made items will come down as consumers won't be able to buy these sweatshop items.

I'm all in favor of being an isolated capitalistic country. Obvouisly some goods (raw materials) will need to be imported because they are simply not found here.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #165 on: April 23, 2009, 04:21:49 AM »
India is mass producing a new sub compact they will not even let into the country.

Cheese

Yes, India will be the first country to mass produce a car that uses compressed air to operate a piston engine. Its capable of going 125 miles on a single tank of compressed air and can reach speeds in excess of 65mph. This car was designed with their market conditions in mind, not ours. So I'm not surprised its considered not street legal here. It's an interesting concept and you have to give then credit for mass producing it. Eventually this technology will be perfected and it will reach our markets, one way or another.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #166 on: April 23, 2009, 04:24:30 AM »
 What is not imported is of little concern as American companies produce product for offshore use that don't pass safety standards here either. The fact is if they sell it here it passes the same standards as domestic product does. Quit grabbing at straws the fact is the union worker raped the American market place until other options became aval. now they must learn to compete or get a handout from govt.
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Offline curtism1234

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #167 on: April 23, 2009, 04:46:31 AM »
Quit grabbing at straws the fact is the union worker raped the American market place until other options became aval.

I'll quit grabbing at straws as soon as you stop bashing unions  ::) ::) ::)

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #168 on: April 23, 2009, 05:21:49 AM »
Quit grabbing at straws the fact is the union worker raped the American market place until other options became aval.

I'll quit grabbing at straws as soon as you stop bashing unions  ::) ::) ::)

Unions deserve bashing and so does our screwed up government for creating an environment that provides incentive for companies to off-shore production.
Avery Hayden Wallace
Obama Administration: A corrupt criminal enterprise of bold face liars.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #169 on: April 23, 2009, 05:27:18 AM »
didn't bash um just stated a fact , they can be some good as long as greed is kept in check ( something they have not done or have the owners )
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Offline Dee

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #170 on: April 24, 2009, 01:16:52 AM »
I'm still interested in what Jimmy Hoffa has to say. Where is that guy? He should know. ;D
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Offline Cheesehead

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #171 on: April 24, 2009, 02:08:35 AM »



Many of Detroit's notorious bombs date to the 1970s and 1980s, and the car companies' offerings are much better today. But car buyers have long memories--and many remain unmoved by the current plight of the Detroit automakers. General Motors and Chrysler are now at the government's mercy, in need of billions in federal aid just to stay afloat. If they don't fulfill tough government demands, Chrysler could be forced into bankruptcy by early April, GM by early May. Ford hasn't asked for bailout money, but it's bleeding cash too.


 
The Detroit 3 have been hoping that Americans will rally to support the home team. But instead, more than half of Americans oppose the auto bailout. One reason is that they feel repeatedly disappointed--even swindled --by the companies now asking for their help. Virtually every automaker, including Honda and Toyota, has produced a clunker or two. But the following cars left behind particularly noxious memories, often because the companies that built them refused to help fix the problems. Here's how some of the owners themselves feel about the cars and the companies that built them:



Chevrolet Vega (1970s). "I had a 1972 Vega. My family struggled to purchase the car for me as their contribution to college, as I was putting myself through school. I loved the car. It was zippy and great for a college student.



“Then two years later, the car simply died. The aluminum-block engine had cracked under heat. I was told I could replace the engine, but lacking resources, I sold it as junk. A two-year-old car!



“I returned to walking and rarely came home from college.



“A small car born during the first gas crisis had great potential, but GM's arrogance doomed it and sent millions of potential buyers to Toyota, Nissan, Honda, etc. Wake up, Detroit!" –Robert Marino, Gillette, N.J.



Ford Mustang II (1970s). "I don't know if this is one of the cars that sank America, but as my first car, my Ford Mustang II certainly sank ME-- and started me on a long road of hating American-made cars. Never mind the oil pump that couldn't pump oil (the valves would routinely grind themselves into oblivion), or how I'd literally find puddles of oil--in the air filter. As I grew older and began to understand the importance of branding and saw the emotional way people bond with their cars, I wondered, did the world even need a four- cylinder Mustang? Clearly, even as far back as 1978, a lot was wrong in Detroit." –Monty Nicol, Calgary, Alberta, Canada



Chevrolet Nova (1970s). "I learned to drive in a ’72 Nova. I love Novas for sentimental reasons. However, I cursed them at the time. No one I knew had one whose radiator didn’t leak. If it wouldn’t put so many people out of work, I’d say good riddance to Detroit.” –John Waldron, Land O’Lakes, Florida



Dodge Omni (1970s–1980s). “The worst car I ever bought. At 200 miles, I had to take it in to get the carburetor gasket replaced. The four-speed shift linkage was held together with plastic clips. After the first clip broke and disconnected the transmission from the shift lever, I always carried spare clips ($1 at the dealer). I went through four or five distributor caps. They would crack, the car would run rough, and the catalytic converter would overheat. It is scary looking at a converter glowing a dull orange-red color! I went through several alternators--the bearings would seize. Finally, at about 80,000 miles, the engine was getting 300 miles to a quart of oil and running hot--and I do take care of my cars. Then a teenage driver hit the car and his insurance company took it off my hands. I haven’t bought a Chrysler car since (except a 1969 Dodge Charger muscle car for fun driving)." –Jim Miller, Lakeville, Minn.



Oldsmobile Cutlass and 98 diesels (1980s). "I bought an Olds Diesel in '78. It was big and comfortable and got great mileage. I wanted to keep it forever. But GM made sure this was a car that would not last forever. The engine self-destructed regularly because GM took a gas engine and converted it to diesel. The fuel injection failed. Others had problems with the transmission, which was undersized for the job. I got rid of it and haven't owned an American car since. Toyotas last forever." –Michael Keiser, San Leandro, Calif.



Buick Skylark (1980s, similar to Chevy Citation, Pontiac Phoenix, and Oldsmobile Omega). “The original 1950s Skylark was a fascinating design effort. So they hung onto the name and eventually slapped it on a bottom-of-the-line sedan, where they forgot everything they may ever have known about quality. The body-parts fit was terrible (I could slip my finger between the trunk lid and the body). The interior was cheap, shoddy and plastic. The seating was apparently designed by those who never sit down--the front seat was effectively level on the sitting part, which meant you were inclined to slide forward. There was no attention given to those who might drive more than a mile in the thing at a time. It was insulting to the intelligence of the American public.” –Tom Anthony, York, Maine



Dodge Neon (introduced in 1994). “The first generation was cool because it was different. Then, the all-new model was introduced in 2000, with a standard three-speed automatic transmission. In 2000! My 1997 Hyundai Elantra commuter car came standard with a four-speed automatic. The Neon also had ridiculous reliability and durability issues, and younger customers were alienated from the lack of a two-door. It's almost as if Chrysler assumed people would buy their cars even though this one was at least a step behind.” – Matthew Boisvert, Windsor, Ontario, Canada



Chevy Lumina (1990s). “Another ‘futuristic’-looking vehicle that was made of such inferior materials that, while the six-cylinder engine may last forever and the plastic body may never rust, the plastic everything else is constantly breaking. (Who in their right mind would make the guts of door latch assemblies out of plastic? When they break, you can't open the door.). Plus, the glass costs more than the vehicle. If you don't believe me, ask a glass shop what they charge for a replacement 1990 Lumina APV windscreen sometime. The price is invariably three times the Kelley Blue Book value of the vehicle itself in near-mint condition.” –Carl Bibbee, Lancaster, Ohio



Pontiac Aztek (2001–2005). "Arguably, the ugliest, least desirable vehicle ever designed by GM. They took an otherwise acceptable SUV platform (shared with the Buick Rendezvous), gave it a drooping rear--which served to reduce interior volume and looked dreadful as well--plastered it with plastic body cladding, and then gave it a face only a mother could love. The thing had so many odd creases and bizarre angles, it looked as if it had been in a wreck sitting there on the showroom floor." –Bruce Lindner, Milwaukie, Ore.



Pontiac Montana (late 1990s/early 2000s, similar to Chevy Venture and Oldsmobile Silhouette). “We bought a used 2000 Pontiac Montana in 2003. During the next two years, we poured over $6,000 in repairs into this horrible vehicle. This van had the six-cylinder engine that we were told was the ‘backbone of the GM fleet.’ Two separate times we had to replace the intake gasket, at an average cost of over $700. I sent E-mails to GM about this. It was a problem with the engine coolant. When a GM vice president called my wife, he stated, ‘Well, you do realize that this vehicle does have over 65,000 miles on it?’ GM lost my business for the rest of my car-buying days, and possibly also that of my teenage children, who were amazed at the lack of action on the part of GM.



“I now own an Audi. Why would I ever buy another car from them with so many other car brands available? I often wonder if the executive who contacted us got a nice bonus.” –Don Boyer, Midland, Mich.

From yahoo news.

Cheese
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #172 on: April 24, 2009, 02:51:29 AM »
Yes, that is some of the junkers
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #173 on: April 24, 2009, 03:08:05 AM »
US auto makers did more for import sales than the imports did themselves !
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Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #174 on: April 24, 2009, 05:23:28 AM »
US auto makers did more for import sales than the imports did themselves !

That is so true!

I had a 2001 Chevy truck that 2 dealers could not repair. I took it to an independent mechanic and in 15 minutes he told me the fuel pump was about to go out! GM told me that they would not honor the warranty unless their mechanics confirmed the problem. I asked that since their mechanics could not find it in the first place did they think their mechanics were competent to make that decision! 

It ain't the fact that it broke that was the problem its the fact that Two dealers handed me my keys to a vehicle that was barely running, and told me they could not find the problem! Of course in my ever easy going manner I asked if they thought I should go to the Honda dealership to get it fixed!

I drive fords and jap vehicles now!
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Offline Dee

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #175 on: April 24, 2009, 01:16:31 PM »
Here it is in a nut shell. This is the land of free enterprise. Capitalism is the rule of the day. If you go to work for a company you are hoping that company will take care of business. If it doesn't you need to go get another job, and not ask, or demand that I thru my tax dollars fund your now failing pension.
It is like hiring a contractor to build your house, and when it falls down, demanding that I help pay for rebuilding it.
It is like buying more house than you can pay for and then demanding that I help pay for it. WAIT! That's what their doing.
Did I mention Free Enterprise, and Capitalism here? Pardon me. The auto makers and unions don't want Capitalism, and Free Enterprise. They want SOCIALISM, and FACISM. THEY WANT MY TAX DOLLAR. ::)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #176 on: April 24, 2009, 04:48:01 PM »
Here it is in a nut shell. This is the land of free enterprise. Capitalism is the rule of the day. If you go to work for a company you are hoping that company will take care of business. If it doesn't you need to go get another job, and not ask, or demand that I thru my tax dollars fund your now failing pension.
It is like hiring a contractor to build your house, and when it falls down, demanding that I help pay for rebuilding it.
It is like buying more house than you can pay for and then demanding that I help pay for it. WAIT! That's what their doing.
Did I mention Free Enterprise, and Capitalism here? Pardon me. The auto makers and unions don't want Capitalism, and Free Enterprise. They want SOCIALISM, and FACISM. THEY WANT MY TAX DOLLAR. ::)

Yes indeed!!
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Cabin4

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #177 on: April 25, 2009, 08:31:53 AM »
Of course! The fact that GM, Ford & Chrysler's manufacturing line labor & legacy costs are significantly higher than their competitors has nothing to do with the problem. It's always managment and........the oil companies ::)
Avery Hayden Wallace
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Offline Dee

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #178 on: April 29, 2009, 01:24:15 AM »
The UAW, is one of the strongest lobbies in D.C. They have bought and paid for many a politician, including the current president and vice president, whom theY contributed heavily to.
Between the government EPA laws on fuel emissions, interference in union, and manufacturer negotiations, and the strong armed tactics of the unions for higher wages, and MORE benefits, the cost of manufacturing has surpassed the value of the product.
Early retirements combined with longer living retirees, (and their heirs i.e. spouses), threats of shutting down production by means of government supported strikes, have all led to the current situation.
Whether it be an auto company, union worker, or bank that thinks the AMERICAN TAX PAYER should bail them out in regards to the company itself or the union pension plans, they are saying that THEY ARE "FOR" SOCIALISTIC, MARXIST, FACISM. They may deny it all they wish, but that is the crux of their expectations. MORE GOVERNMENT FOR ME AND MINE! The union worker is no better than the non-union worker. Lost your job AND your penision? Go get another damn job, I did, and quit whinning wanting me to bail you out. MAN UP! >:( ;)

WHEN ANYONE IS WILLING TO SACRIFICE FREEDOM FOR A LITTLE SECURITY, THEY DESERVE NIETHER.
BEN FRANKLIN ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Question about union worker attitudes in Detroit?
« Reply #179 on: April 29, 2009, 03:32:38 AM »
Well it looks like the government and the unions are going to get their way.  Government will have 51% share in GM with the union getting 39%.  Regular stockholders were screwed out of a deal.  With Chrysler, unions will get 55% and they will merge with Fiat of Italy, but at least the government stays out.  Here is what is going to keep GM afloat.  The Obama government wants "green" cars, that no one wants to buy because of their high price.  Also, probably all the Feds will buy from now on will be GM's because they own it.  Feds will probably mandate States to buy GM's if they get Fed money.  Then they will use our tax money to subsidise the "green" cars.

Look out, health care is next.  We only have enough doctors, nurses, and medical facilities for full coverage of about 75% of Americans, basically those who have insurance.  So with "free" health care, they will be swamped so we go the way of Europe and Canada with waiting lists, and limited care. 

Banks will probably be nationalised next or before the utilities.

Next Utilities, windmills, tidal wave, solar, mandates on flouresent bulbs or LED bulbs, and limited power usage, rationing of power.  High cost of power because of carbon tax on companies who use coal.  No nukes, because it is dangerous, never mind over 100 operating nuclear plants and 100's of navy ships using nukes every day with no incidents. So, if the companies don't do what the Feds want, they will nationalise them. 

Welcome to the USSA, United Socialist States of Amerika.