Author Topic: sizing new brass?  (Read 2332 times)

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Offline troy_mclure

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sizing new brass?
« on: March 31, 2009, 02:18:49 PM »
do you guys size your new(never fired) brass?

Offline KAYR1

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2009, 02:25:50 PM »
I just typically tumble it, neck size only, trim, then load for new brass. Others may have different methods, but htis has worked for me. Too much full-length resizing limits the life of the case. just make sure the case fits in the chamber and ejects, and you should be fine.

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2009, 04:20:28 PM »
I go thru my whole case prep routine when I break out new brass, including sizing.
Richard
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Offline Bart Solo

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2009, 06:21:05 PM »
I also do the whole case prep routine including sizing. I have encountered too many new but slightly damaged cases.   

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2009, 06:29:58 PM »
+3!!  You never know what shape a factory new case is really in. It can spoil your whole day.

Full prep first time for your safety and those around you. Only then can you go to the range knowing they will be OK.  After the first firing, you own them; they fit your gun!

Have fun and stay safe - great question!!

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Sweetwater
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Offline Grumulkin

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2009, 11:35:16 PM »
So, when you buy factory new cartridges, do you check them all, pull the bullets, trim and resize the cases, etc. just to make sure no defective cartridges slip by you?  You never know.

Do you think the new cartridge cases sold to you are any different than what the ammo manufacturers cook up their own loads with?

When you buy new primed brass, do you trim and resize that as well or is there something special about it so you don't need to?

It's obvious you guys don't have enough to do.

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2009, 02:31:34 AM »
i allways size and trim them. Like was said ive seen some big inconsistancy in overal lenght and even brass size
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Offline Savage

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2009, 02:58:29 AM »
Grumulkin,
New brass cases are formed by multiple draws (extrusions) to near final dimensions. The process is accurate enough that they will normally fit the average chamber at that point. When they go through the factory loading process they are sized to spec. as part of the normal loading operation. I do the same thing, as part of my normal loading process. I rarely have found it necessary to trim new cases, but otherwise I treat them just like any other case. New primed cases have been through the sizing/priming operations and are ready to charge and seat the bullet after checking the case mouth for burrs. This process has insured that my ammo chambers and performs as expected. If you get by with less, good for you!
Savage
Guess I should add that I don't deal with too many new cases anymore. Much too expensive, and I shoot common calibers that I've been able to find range brass or cheaper once fired stuff.
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Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2009, 05:58:40 AM »
Morn'in Reloaders

Yes, on rifle brass you really need to size the case, no matter how bright clean it may look.  even if the case shows no manufacturing damage such as out of round necks.

I once loaded a batch of .270s on new and unsized brass, and then found the necks were not tight enough to keep the bullets in place.

So, for my rifle brass I size, trim, deburr, and remove the burr around the inside of the flash hole.

In some cases, I have even taken the time/effort to turn the necks.

You will not believe just how much out of round those necks are until you turn a bunch and find on many, that the cutter does not touch all the way around the case neck.

So yes, in this Ol'Coots opinion, you must at least size new rifle brass before loading!

Keep em coming!

CDOC
300 Winmag

Offline Grumulkin

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2009, 07:11:34 AM »
Well gentlemen, in all my years of reloading, I've never found new brass to be so out of spec that it wouldn't function, gave excess pressures, poor accuracy, etc.  It's true; I do inspect new brass.  In one batch of 222 brass I found one primer hole clear off to the side of the primer pocket where it probably would have prevented powder ignition by the primer and several more with the holes way off center.  Case mouths can be out of round but that is easily remedied with something as simple as a screwdriver.  Chamfering the mouths makes bullet seating easier at times so in some instances I do that.

As for loose bullets, etc., I think ya'll better start disassembling your factory cartridges.  Once in a while one fails to fire.  I've heard of one instance where a primer was in backwards and of another where cartridges loaded with premium bullets had very loose bullets that could be moved with the fingers.  If you think the brass in factory cartridges is that much different than the new brass you buy, you're welcome to your delusion.  I would think that having now used hundreds, yea maybe even thousands of new cases over the years that I haven't resized or trimmed I would have come to a bad end by now if I were going to come to a bad end.

As for turning necks, deburring flash holes, uniforming flash holes, etc., I've done that in the past.  If you are a bench rest shooter looking for 0.25 inch groups, have a gun that is capable of it with a tight chamber and are personally capable of that kind of accuracy, then you may need to do those things and maybe even resize new cases to fit but in the usual factory gun; even the accurate ones you don't need to do any of that and probably won't be able to tell any difference in accuracy for all your efforts.

Understand though, I don't care if you resize and trim new cases.  It's not my time; it's yours.

Offline Bart Solo

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2009, 07:47:48 AM »
New brass comes in a bag. Factory ammunition comes in a box.  Lots of things can happen to stuff in a bag.

Do factories load ammunition without sizing?

Offline Grumulkin

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2009, 08:02:05 AM »
Do factories sell new brass without sizing?

When left in a bag, do cases get longer?

When left in a bag, do cases get bigger around?

In addition, most of the new brass I've bought came in a box and not in a bag if that makes any difference in length and girth of the enclosed cases.

Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2009, 08:44:09 AM »
Well Grumulkin, I sure ain't go'in ta start an argument with you.

However, the facts are as I stated them.

New 270 brass, unsized and loaded, DID NOT have tight enough necks to hold the bullets in place.

Buy the way, this was Winchester brass back in the days when I still bought new brass in boxes of 20, rather then in bags of 50 or more, as is common now.

This factory NEW, out of a box brass was not correctly sized - as sold - to give normal neck pressure on the seated bullet.

No brag, just fact!

I am not privy to what processes are gone through in the factory when they load "factory ammo", but the fact remains, better size ( or possibly measure ) your new brass before loading or face the possibility of dealing after the fact with loose bullets just like I did.

Once was enough to teach me I didn't want to deal with that situation again.

Ya, I have done the screw driver OR?? thing in the neck of a crushed - rifle and/or pistol - case which was out of round, but before sizing!

Maybe you have, but I haven't profected the method to the place where I wanted to load the still out of round or possibly now oversized case without taking the next step. SIZING!

As per case prep of new or fired cases before loading, well most of us who have loaded for any length of time have developed a method/system which works for us.

One which allows us to feel comfortable with the end product and provides us with the level of quality we desire.

I feel my possibly extra and even unneeded steps, provide me with that level, and being the Ol'Coot that I am, have no reason or desire to do less.

Keep em coming!

CDOC
300 Winmag

Offline OR-E-Gun Bill

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2009, 09:01:35 AM »
Not saying anyone is right or wrong, we all find our own way of doing things when it comes to handloading but...

here's a picture of a Remington brand .308 Win. that was in a bag of new brass I bought this past summer. Obviously it got jammed in their trimming process, as there are 4 cuts with the brass peeled back. Perhaps a bit on the extreme side but it's enough to prove to me that the factory can be far from perfect and enough for me to size,trim to length, debur, etc. all before loading. Now if you're talking about new Nosler brass, I would make an exception.



Bill

Offline huntswithdogs

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2009, 09:37:10 AM »
When I start on a new bag of rifle brass, I inspect it, run it through a sizer, chamfer and deburr necks anddo the primer pockets. I've had pieces with cracked necks, necks caved in or dented pretty good and all primer pockets are in need of being flattened out. If I have my flash hole tool handy, I'll do them at the same time. Checking for proper length is something I do on all rifle brass when ever I'm loading.


HWD

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2009, 12:05:52 PM »
I have loaded a bunch of new brass. I used to full length size every one. I do not now. I just feel it is a waste of time. I neck size, trim to length, deburr the flash hole, give them a light touch inside and out side the case mouth and uniform the pockets. While doing this, I inspect the cases. I too have found split necks and crumpled necks. I have even found them with large dents in the case body. Nothing that full length sizing will fix. I hate to say it, but there is rarely a time I can buy 500 cases and not have a few with problems of one kind or another. I just have not found a need to full length resize new brass - But I clean primer pockets before reloading, and some do not. I think it is what you feel comfortable with. I have cleaned new brass if I felt the need to, but not very often. Good Luck and Good Shooting
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Offline cwlongshot

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2009, 01:04:51 PM »
Morn'in Reloaders

Yes, on rifle brass you really need to size the case, no matter how bright clean it may look.  even if the case shows no manufacturing damage such as out of round necks.

So, for my rifle brass I size, trim, deburr, and remove the burr around the inside of the flash hole.

You will not believe just how much out of round those necks are until you turn a bunch and find on many, that the cutter does not touch all the way around the case neck.

So yes, in this Ol'Coots opinion, you must at least size new rifle brass before loading!

This is exactly what I do as well.

Try it for your self, load up a couple WITHOUT re-sizing and a couple WITH resizing, make up your own mind...

I think you will be like the majority posting and you will also choose to re-size new brass too.

CW
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Offline 223Shooter

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2009, 04:31:03 PM »
I ALWAYS FL size new/used brass that has never been fired in any of my firearms before. It is apart of my reloading process.

Offline Jack Magnum

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2009, 09:25:08 AM »
I have loaded a bunch of new brass. I used to full length size every one. I do not now. I just feel it is a waste of time. I neck size, trim to length, deburr the flash hole, give them a light touch inside and out side the case mouth and uniform the pockets. While doing this, I inspect the cases. I too have found split necks and crumpled necks. I have even found them with large dents in the case body. Nothing that full length sizing will fix. I hate to say it, but there is rarely a time I can buy 500 cases and not have a few with problems of one kind or another. I just have not found a need to full length resize new brass - But I clean primer pockets before reloading, and some do not. I think it is what you feel comfortable with. I have cleaned new brass if I felt the need to, but not very often. Good Luck and Good Shooting
I am with you on your procedures and feel neck sizing is enough and no need for FL sizing.

Offline Steve P

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2009, 09:54:35 AM »
You, the reloader, have the option, of your own free will, to size or NOT size your new brass.  That is totally up to you!!

I used to be the nay-sayer, pooh-poohed my friends who had the time to load their ammo and confirm it fit in their guns.  Hah!  I could get new brass and inside of an hour or so have ammo ready to shoot.  Why spend the extra time?

Spend a heck of a lot of money on a hunting trip, or be tied with another competitor going into the last round of a competition, and then tell me what that VERY FIRST piece of bad brass is worth.   :(

I load 1000s of rounds a year.  Quite a bit of it is new brass or once fired brass that has been made into wildcat brass.  Lots of my straight wall pistol brass is new when first fired in my revolvers.  I should know what should or should not be sized, right?

A couple of years back I purchased a new .243 WSSM a few weeks before hunting season.  I found one box of ammo locally for about $50.  I could pick up once fired brass for $25 per 100.  Yep, spent the $50 on once fired brass.  Picked up my new dies.  Set up my loader.  Was very maticulous in setting up the die only doing a partial neck size until the brass fit in my chamber.  After all, 200 once fired brass, all from the same guy, must have all been fired in the same gun, right?  Partial size to fit my chamber and I won't have to over-work the brass too much.  

I loaded up my ammo with known components to a load that would be adequate for my hunt.  Using all top of the line components, it has to be accurate too, right?  I sighted the gun in.  Several 3-5 shot groups out to 200 yard.  All under an inch, even out to 200.  What a sweet shooting gun.

We got out to our hunting spot the night before season and were glassing the slopes around where we would hunt.  Too early yet for the deer to be moving in, or maybe something else is going on.  We look closer and a buddy of mine spots a large coyote about 400 yards out, laying in wait.  He is right where our deer are supposing to be coming up.  My buddy runs into the trailer and pulls out the first gun available.  Of course is it my .243 wssm.  He asks me quickly for sight picture and I say hold top of back level with crosshairs.  He lets fire and Mr. Coyote jump as if stung and spins around.  Grazed him.  My buddy tried to jack in the next load.  WHAT!! the bolt won't close.  We get the round out and get the next in line.  Mr. Coyote is just disaapearing over top of the ridge.  No time for a second shot.  

Of course we have to find out what happened.  Why wouldn't the bolt close?  We tried the round several times and finally got the bolt to close, but with a lot of pressure.  I check the rest of the ammo in my box of 50 and found about 8 that required excessive pressure to close the bolt.  I hadn't adjusted my die down enough to fully size each piece of brass for my chamber.  Some of the once fired brass had to have been fired in a different gun.  Of course I corrected that when I got home and sorted thru the rest of my ammo.

Factory brass is not made on dies that look like what we hunters and reloaders use.  It is stamped out of rod or billet that is going thru multiple steps in stamping machines.  These machines work better than 99.9% of the time.  Loss is well less than 1 per thousand.  More likely one per every 3000 or 4000 or more.  

Talk to someone who works in the factory actually loading this new brass.  In a typical shift they will load 10s of 1000s of rounds of ammo and will have a small bucket of reject brass that they pull out during the process.  Brass is still going thru another sizing machine, priming station, charging station, and bullet seating.  Some go thru a pretty funky looking machine that spins them to put in the crimp.  Once in a while you even have rejects get thru at the manufacturing level.  

If the brass isn't going into be loaded, it goes to be sold in bulk.  Boxes with 2000+ pieces of brass dumped in by weight.  Do you think they are sorting at this level?  Nah, they are loading those boxes and getting them stacked on a pallet.  Sometimes the wholesaler will package them in small packages, but even then they do not always do a good job of sorting.

I won't tell you what to do as far as your brass goes.  It is your time and your reloads.  If you load to go blast in the gravel pit, why waste the time?  If you are loading for hunting or competition, you better think twice about your options.  Your first BAD brass may be the first shot you HAVE to take.  

Steve :)
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Offline Darrell Davis

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2009, 01:12:35 PM »
Oh dear, leave it to this Ol'Coot to throw another wrench into the mix.

As Per "full length" or "neck" sizing, well I have done very little "full length" sizing as per the RCBS directions since way back when.

In fact not since the days I got tired of having brass go bad with partial head seperations in just a few firings..

But, on top of that, I do not have one "neck sizing" die in my collection.

OK, just what am I saying when I say I do not "full length" size and yet I say I have no "neck" sizing dies?

Well, I simply do not follow the RCBS instructions for setting up a "full length" die, prefering to size my cases to the minimum which allows relyable chambering in my firearms.

So??????? Am I "full length" sizing or not since I am using a die made for such use.

Again, I size - with a "full length" die - only to the minimum required for relyable chambering.

On a new and newly fired case, they will almost always rechamber in the firearm in which they were shot, unless pressures were very high.

Therefore, when setting up a new set of "full length" dies, I do not allow the die to touch the shell holder as per directions, rather I allow give or take 1/16 - 3/32" clearence between the die and shell holder for the first time the die is used for sizing.

In the case of a new set up with a new die/rifle etc., the case may not easly/relyably chamber after it has been fired two or more times.

When this happens, I tweak the die down just a tad, until the cases again will relyably chamber.

Bare in mind, this method may not work if you are loading for multiple firearms of the same caliber, with the same set of dies.

Over time, you will find just where your die needs to be set and at that point have reached the optimum setting for that firearm/"full length" sizing die combination.

Have I "full length" sized with my "full length" die?

In most cases, with most of my firearms, the answer is no, even though I AM using a "full length" sizing die.

Oh by the way, this lesson was learned back close to 35 + years ago and the results are easy chambering and maximum case life.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

300 Winmag

Offline wncchester

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2009, 02:53:26 PM »
"do you guys size your new(never fired) brass?"

Certainly.  It's easy to do, cheap, I already have the tools to do it and it insures the cases are as nearly indentical as I can make them before reloading.  And it sure can't hurt anything, can it?

Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline billy_56081

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2009, 02:47:22 AM »
For many many years I didn't even own a full length sizing die for my 223 and still don't for my 25-06. I been firing factory brass and shooting them out of my savage a Mark X for years without an issue. So my ammo hasn't worked at all all these years? All I have is Lee collet dies.
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Offline wncchester

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2009, 08:14:27 AM »
Okay, lets admit there  is no safey hazard to using factory brass as it comes, box or bag.

The larger question of weither or not it helps first time accuracy is another thing entirely but even that's a personal thing, size it or not as it seems more comfortable to us.   Who cares how others do it?
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2009, 08:26:28 AM »
Okay, lets admit there  is no safey hazard to using factory brass as it comes, box or bag.

The larger question of weither or not it helps first time accuracy is another thing entirely but even that's a personal thing, size it or not as it seems more comfortable to us.   Who cares how others do it?

I believe you just nailed it! OP = do you guys size your new(never fired) brass?

All we did was answer a question that involved "what do you do". Doesn't ask why or anything else.

There are probably just as many opinions of how to brush teeth! Doesn't make any of it wrong, just off topic....

Happy Easter,
Sweetwater
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Offline mechanic

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2009, 08:30:03 AM »
Most of the time I have to shoot the bullet out of my "new" brass before I load it.......... ::)++

The rest of the time I have to clean the dirt off.  The new brass around here is about as much as loaded ammo.
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline Lead pot

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2009, 09:04:00 AM »
I anneal it, size it shoot it than trim it after it was fired.

Lp.
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Offline Tom W.

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2009, 09:15:43 AM »
I resize all of my brass...now. I tried a few that I just took out of the bag, measured and loaded, and had trouble with. I even resize my new Starline brass....

As for factory ammo I cannot comment, as I haven't had any in years..... But the last box that I did buy was for a .270 that I had, and when I opened the box to get a round out, the bullet stayed in the bottom of the box.
Tom
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Offline drdougrx

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2009, 01:03:41 PM »
Nope....never had a problem.  I just load and shoot.
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Offline stimpylu32

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Re: sizing new brass?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2009, 01:46:30 PM »
Every peice of brass that comes into my gun room gets the same treatment , be it new or fired .

1) It goes in a tumbler to clean any gunk

2) Then it gets FL sized

3) Tumbled again

4) Checked for length and trimmed as needed

5) Case mouths chamfered

6) Primer pockets & flash holes checked

The amount of time spent on a case will very as to how much it needs BUT they all get the same treatment , that way I get as consistent a round as I can .

stimpy

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:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped