Author Topic: An ideal survival rifle (Read 14276 times)

schoolmaster · « **on:** April 04, 2009, 07:05:01 AM »

I have read with interest the one rifle thread and survival gun threads. It seems to me that we are missing the boat. I believe that my ideal survival rifle would be a CZ bolt action. The short barreled one that is threaded for a surpressor. I believe a surpressed, accurate, lightweight, .22 rifle would be very valuable in a survival situation. If you are not wanting to draw attention to your retreat or your presence this alternative would be in my mind ideal. It certainly should be considered as a part of any survival battery. Now I know a 10-22 set up the same way would be an alternative choice although a little more expensive. But the idea of being able to shoot very quietly is appealing.

hillbill · « **Reply #1 on:** April 04, 2009, 04:00:36 PM »

nuttin wrong with the little cz and i like the suppressed idea too. not sure of the legal ramifications here in mo where i live tho.i think the type of survival rifle would be totally dependent on what part of the country you live in.here i would be doing a lot of deer hunting as well as small game. the 22 would prob work but id sure like the extra range of a slightly more powerfull rifle.even a small deer at over 50 yrds would be a challenge unless off a dead steady rest for the 22.same thing for a turkey.if i was farther south and was hunting some hogs or even small black bears in arkansas just south of here id definitely want a 223 class rifle.the 223 gets my vote boys, although i dont think id be going hungry with the little cz, just have to work a little harder at it.

schoolmaster · « **Reply #2 on:** April 04, 2009, 04:42:40 PM »

I think in a true survival situation that being legal would not be worth consideration. The ability of being able to shoot very quietly is. I agree that a high capacity .223 and .308 should be a part of the survival battery also. A battle rifle can be used for hunting and self defense. The silenced .22 would be I believe very valuable. My grandfather in the height of the depression kept meat on the table and had meat to sell at the local market using a home made silencer on a .22 auto. His ability to take several animals or birds without spooking the rest off made the difference.

243dave · « **Reply #3 on:** April 04, 2009, 04:47:00 PM »

The cz with the threaded barrel around here is over $350. If need be I'll get out my $100 dollar marlin 22 and walk into the garage and get the tap and die set and make it have a threaded barrel and put the money towards ammo(if you can find it). But I admitt, I like that cz alot. My favorite cz 22 is the one with the long barrel and sliding rear sight. I agree with hillbill with his thoughts on the 223, but let me add that when you handload the 223 with a couple grains of shotgun powder its quiter than a 22 rimfire and then you always have the option of loading it to the max and greatly increase your range and power. But really which ever way you go both would be fine in a survival situation as long as the man behind the gun knows how to use it. Dave

Arier Blut · « **Reply #4 on:** April 04, 2009, 07:02:37 PM »

The semis kick a little noise out the side. I noticed this on the short case Aguilla 60 gr. Paid more attention and it was noticeable on the standard sub sonics as well. The CZ would be one of the quietest 22's available today with a 21" barrel and a can. Green Mountain just ran a mess of 28" barrels for the 10-22. I liked the idea, but not the weight or the sound still coming out of the action. The best setup may be the mossberg of days past with the 24" barrel. Those were quiet and accurate as well.

A good lever action in pistol caliber would be hard to beat as well. With a threaded barrel and heavy bullet it would have the extra energy for bigger critters. It truly is a shame we have to think about such things these days. Just goes to show how fast things can change.

243dave · « **Reply #5 on:** April 05, 2009, 08:47:03 AM »

The bigbore pistol cartridges from a rifle can be made as quiet as a 22rimfire and still be effective on game. I've loaded my 45colt lever with 250gr cast bullets and as little as 2 grains of powder, when testing in my garage. I've settled on 3 grains of powder because its a great compromise of power and noise while testing in phonebooks. I haven't tested them on deer yet but I have confidence out to 50 yards or so it will give complete penetration. If I load up the old colt with 300gr XTP mag bullets and a stiff charge of H-110 it is a 150yd gun and penetration and killing power that would surprise the high velocity, medium/small bore crowd, I know it sure surprised me. Bigbore pistol cartridges are the most flexible cartridges thats cheap and quiet to shoot IMO. Dave

45-70.gov · « **Reply #6 on:** April 20, 2009, 06:21:51 AM »

the paper work on the suppreaaor to make it legal will draw unwanted attention
not getting the paper work will expose you to a bigger threat

3 grains of bulls eye in 357 hanti is powerful and quiet 22inch barrel

haven't tried them in the 16 inch trapper lever
this might be a good survival gun if it is REAL quiet too
combined with the power of fully loaded 357 and the quiet 38 option
i cast my own and a lot of cheap,powerful and small bullets can be carried and stored

teamnelson · « **Reply #7 on:** April 20, 2009, 05:00:19 PM »

Whatever the rifle/gun you choose for an eotwawki scenario, consider that it may get passed on for GENERATIONS. Does a silencer limit your ammo options in any way? Are they idiot proof? Is it easy to crossthread if you're not paying attention?

Are there any other DIY options out there that might be good to know?

Cornbelt · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2009, 04:42:59 PM »

Had a class 3 FFL in the early '80's, and a few suppressors. They were all legal, BTW, but the threads were coarse enough to thread w/o trouble. Also not standard; 3/4" x 12 if I remember right. And though they reduced a 9mm or .380 down to .22 noise level, the end wipes would wear out quickly. I would then use a piece of conveyor belting which lasted a lot longer, but with something rubbing the bullet on the way out, accuracy was affected. I'd take my chances with a .22 or bow shot. As far as trying to suppress a high power rifle, the things whistle after the shot as the trapped gasses are expelled, and the bullet cracks the sound barrier anyhow. All in all they were over-rated, -but a whole lot of fun!

45-70.gov · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2009, 01:07:24 PM »

3/4 X10 thread same as a trailer hitch ball

Foggy · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2009, 03:00:04 PM »

22 mag here

teamnelson · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2009, 09:57:41 PM »

223 singleshot with adapters for 22lr & 22mag for me.

RE: silencers. I'm a learner so thanks for the info. What is an end wipe and is it something I need to stockpile if I'm going to use it frequently? Would you supress a long gun or combat range (<100m) guns? Will any ammo work well?

Cornbelt · « **Reply #12 on:** April 26, 2009, 04:08:49 PM »

The end wipe is in the screw-on end cap, just a piece of rubber or plastic, and has a hole in it just a little smaller than the bullet; not conducive to good accuracy, but the .380 M11's would shoot 20 rounds a second, so it didn't need to be, but they were cheap guns and cheap suppressors. The really good ones have such close tollerances they can cost a lot to build, but if it is a good one, though the impact will change when it's put on, it will still be consistant. Another thing they used to sell was a screw-on 2-liter pop bottle adapter. Good for one shot. When the gov't found out plastic 2-liter bottles qualified as "silencers", due to the broad definition, they stopped the manufacture of the adapters. I think you can still buy duct tape though. Technically, integral suppressors on pellet guns are not against federal law since pellet guns ar not firearms. Don't know if anyone ever tried welding one on a muzzle-loader. For all their trouble,coming and going, it is a good case for a crossbow. If you like silencers, you might want to research the OSS. They used them during the war on High Standard pistols. They had one in a survival kit for U-2 pilots. The Russians wound up with Gary Powers' piece. But the design is documented and might be worth researching.

squirrellluck · « **Reply #13 on:** April 26, 2009, 05:20:03 PM »

The most effective suppressor I have seen was made from an aluminum wind chime and the old style pop bottle tops. It did have a threaded adaptor on 1 end of the tube

teamnelson · « **Reply #14 on:** April 26, 2009, 08:14:04 PM »

I was curious about the two liter bottle solution. Seems like there might be easier access to those in our scenario. And of course the ubiquitous IRA potato on a revolver option ... Which isn't silent and makes a mess but someone is bound to try.

For a single shot, I was thinking a pistol in a ziploc baggie taped around your wrist ... But that might not have enough volume for a baffle.

Chappers · « **Reply #15 on:** April 27, 2009, 12:55:45 PM »

I just thought that a suppressor is what you would not need in such a scenario. If defending your house in such a troubled time, would the sound of rifle shot tend to make the scavengers look for a softer target?
The only need i can see for a suppressor is gathering food without letting other people know that you are capable of replenishing your food stock but a .22LR rifle, a coke bottle, some cotton wool, thin rubber underlay, glue and masking tape would take care of that.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #16 on:** April 27, 2009, 01:09:02 PM »

The slincer thing is over rated been looking at them . Ran across a book that showed a B&S muffler and a piece of hose with 2 clamps . In a surv. situation it could be an option . easy on and off . And no i won't try it as its illegal .

Cornbelt · « **Reply #17 on:** April 29, 2009, 06:49:58 AM »

I once had a muzzle weight tapped for threads on a singlr-shot .22 which fit nicely inside a lawn mower muffler. Of course it didn't silence a thing since the muzzle weight was only thru-drilled, but a CB cap with it and a minni-mag without it sure did convince a lot of folks, which goes to show what ammo selection can do.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #18 on:** May 07, 2009, 09:32:52 AM »

for most suppressors to work you have to use subsonic ammo .

schoolmaster · « **Reply #19 on:** May 07, 2009, 10:14:55 AM »

Just watched a special on cable last night about suppressors and learned that the new generation of supressors are made without wipes and they showed a 10-22 firing regular ammo and the only sound was the action cycling. They also said that the lessened report was not the main reason that supressors were used. It seems that they like the recoil reduction which leads to more accurate shooting and less muzzle blast with the larger calibers. The event was a suppressed weapons shoot and there was every kind of rifle being fired. Pretty neat.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #20 on:** May 08, 2009, 03:21:39 AM »

That's interesting as the ones out with out wipes that i have read about do not kill the noise as well as the ones with wipes , The wipes are welded in and seem to break . They are also hard to if not impossible to clean . Some use ultrasonic cleaning but some feel that harms the welds .
I have been debating getting one for several years now , i will watch for the program you mention as that sounds like a good way to go.
Several friends have them and with a 22 the bullet hitting the target is more than the shot , with the 308 and sub ammo its quiet but reg ammo its loud still
thanks

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 08, 2009, 03:37:20 AM »

i like the surpressor idea.. my survival rifle is a scoped marlin 60.. with
velocitor ammo ,i can drop a deer out to 75 yrds no problem .. ive done that on car hit deer with a leg dangling but able to still stay away from me..i couldn t do it now,due to health..,so the 18 shot semi gives me some firefight capabilities..i do like the quiet idea tho..my marlins a racket maker..

slim

Shiner · « **Reply #22 on:** May 08, 2009, 12:32:38 PM »

I'd just settle for my 10/22.

243dave · « **Reply #23 on:** May 08, 2009, 04:23:11 PM »

SHOOTALL, Schoolmaster is talking about the program called The Shooting Gallery on the Outdoor Network. Heres the guys the host of the show was interviewing and they supplied most of the surpressors used. http://www.johnsguns.com/ Dave

schoolmaster · « **Reply #24 on:** May 08, 2009, 04:43:44 PM »

243dave, That is the name of the program I saw. I turned it on in the middle of it and didn't see it all. Of course they gave several reasons to use supressors, and some of them seemed reasonable. I was particularly interested that the military are using more and more of them. My original thought was that being able to shoot silently was a definite advantage in hunting game. But there are tactical reasons too. I am impressed with the different methods that people have some up with to quiet down the report of their guns. Methods noted and kept for future reference.

243dave · « **Reply #25 on:** May 08, 2009, 05:30:09 PM »

If you reload and like the idea of quiet loads check out this article, its a good read and gives loads for a lot of different cartridges. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/small_charges.htm Keep in mind these loads are with cast bullets---with a jacketed bullet with loads this light---- I'd be afraid of a lodged bullet in the barrel. Dave

Cornbelt · « **Reply #26 on:** May 09, 2009, 04:22:01 PM »

An interesting group of cartridges was developed by J D Jones at SSK Industries specifically for suppressors. They range from 6mm to .50 cal with velocities just under mach 1. Special purpose ammo, and special guns to shoot it in. Some examples are: .338 Whisper, (300 grain bullet on 7mm Benchrest case), 7.63mm Mini-Whisper, (168 grain bullet on 7.63 Broomhandle case, 7.63 Micro-Whisper, (180 grain bullet on .30 Luger case). What they have in common is sub-sonic velocity using heavy bullets for the energy. Mostly short range, but they had the loading as quiet as possible before they suppressed it, which might be worth a lot even without a suppressor. -Cartridges of the World; 9th edition. SSk Industries also sells chamber reamers and loading dies for their pets.

Rex in OTZ · « **Reply #27 on:** May 27, 2009, 06:30:48 PM »

Since its a survival gun that you actually depend on surviving with it has to be accurate, reliable, a effective caliber thats prevalant & cheap to shoot so you can have allot of ammo on hand.
You could fill in what your personal choice is for guns.
Robust, scoped, handy quiet and a repeater (had covey of ptarmagan sit till I got the 3'rd one before they flushed).
My personal choice's would be wittled down to the following#1 a Remington Nylon 66 #2 Remington 572 pump, #3Taurus 72 pump carbine,#4 Browning semiautomatic .22 (reliability), #5 Winchester 9422(reliability),#6 Ruger 10/22 (sights suck,mag release is a problem,mag's can be lost), #7 marlin 60 love them tube mags , a good 20ga pump shotgun(H&R or Mossberg) or a good double barrel .410 or 20ga as you can see Im a .22 guy and very lately am into shotguns.

Id suggest old calibers but you'd have to reload (218Bee,32-20,25-20,.22Hornet,.22 High power) when these calibers in ther day they were good rounds.

The Gun's Id suggest avoiding ................Are survival rifles especially the AR7 clones they are at best a handicap and when your survival is depending on takeing a shot with limited ammo, use the best you can afford! Why handicap yourself with a gun that's fragile, poorly sighted, and oft times inaccurate, survival useally means Hunting and Defending yer nest when its required, so get a good hunting gun, ther built for killing accurtely so pick one that your wicked accurate with especially running shots and shots in low light situations.

I dident mention the henry lever action's .22 because the front sight and barrel bands on some them are plastic and wouldent stand up to getting beat a little, if they did have all metal construction it would move it to #3 or 4

jlwilliams · « **Reply #28 on:** May 28, 2009, 01:57:15 AM »

The old savage 22/410 (or 22 over any shotgun for that matter) double guns are near perfet for small game. They aren't well suited to screwing a suppressor on though, and that is a viable consideration for the discret forager.

I disagree that doing the paper work to buy one legally brings unwanted attention. It's a pain in the back, but once you do the transfer it's yours for ever. The cost of doing it legally is a small fraction of what one would pay a lawyer if you got caught doing it illegally. I'm not saying that those of you who don't want one should go ahead and get one, I'm saying that those of you who do want one shouldn't be afraid to go for it. Contact a class 3 dealer in your state and they can inform you more specificly. Maybe it's for you, maybe not.

The conversation we're having revolves around selecting a survival gun now, before any possable future "day of the brown fan' so that we will have it after that day. I think it makes sense to buy whatever you want now, while you can. If the government decides to go round up all the legally owned silencers, well, then that would suck. On the other hand that may never happen. If some great catastrophe befalls us, and you have a silenced firearm, well then good for you.

As posted already in this thread, the silencers of today are night and day different from what was available twenty years ago.

don heath · « **Reply #29 on:** May 28, 2009, 03:14:14 AM »

See my comments on the "is one enough" thread...Having worked in the african bush and been on unplanned "bush survival schools" (we had a war on), I note the following.

1) a .22 isn't enough gun for the bigger problems and is too much gun for collecting dinner. After my first 10 day hike with insufficient rations to start and no proper re-supply, I bought a Webley .177 air pistol. One of the lads in my stick had one on that follow up and kept us all fed on doves. If you are not hiking out accross country, traps and snares keep you better fed on small game like rabbits and guinea fowl (that are too big for an air pistol) than putting in hunting time with a .22. Even a silenced .22 is too noisy when you are the hunted game.

2) Modern air rifles are powerful enough to kill rabbits and fair sized birds. Pick up any Brit shooting magazine ans see what they are achieving - especially as many of their air rifles are limmited to 12ftlbs of energy. In the USA you are not limmited...look what the brits achive with 'licensed air guns (up to 20ft/lbs energy). You can carry one hell of alot more pellets than .22 rounds and kill almost the same sized game. Don't know if silencers on airguns need paperwork in the USA. They don't where I am from.

Any RCBS press is big enough to swage more pelets from any lead source. and if we run out of air to compresss- you will not be needing a fireearm

If you want your survival gun to protect you as well as feed you - that starts at .223 and I am more inclined to go with what your military is re-discovering. Bigger bullets are more economical, hense the move to 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendal (or heck just get a CZ chambered for 7.62x39). It will kill deer (or bigger), and it is always preferable in a survival situation to kill one big animal occasionally than many small ones. It will stop people (a .22 will kill but placement better be perfect!),