An ideal survival rifle

[teamnelson]

I've a webley tempest air pistol that is great for keeping the stewpot stocked. I would actually lean away from large kills in a survival situation unless you had a large group to feed or the means to process and store the remains. Otherwise you leave a trail and waste food. Snares, slings etc amen.

[mannyrock]

   Sorry, but here is the honest answer:  There is no one "ideal" survival rifle.  You need to shoot small game and large game, at close range and far range, plus have an adequate self-defense round at medium range, and there is NO single cartridge that fills that bill nicely or even reasonably close.  Sorry, but it ends up being a series of very bad compromises.   Perhaps the closest bad-fit is a .223 rifle, with a chamber insert for firing .22 LR.

     The next closest bad-fit would be an M-1 Carbine, with a 3 power scope mounted, using fmj rounds for small game, and soft points for large game and zombies. This would give you close-up capacity on small game, a reasonable big game round to 100 yards, and a reasonable self-defense round to 150 yards.  (The .30 carbine in the soft-point version is a totally different animal than the fmj round, and yes it would be devastating on a zombie at 150 yards, delivering about the same foot pounds of energy as a .357 magnum fired at point blank in a revolver.)

  The best fit for all situations would be to have two rifles: one in .22lr, and one in either .308 Winchester, .30-30 Winchester, or 7.62 Russian.  This combo would totally fill the bill up close, and out to 200 yards.  (Yes, the .30-30 is a 200 yard round.  Just sight it in 6 inches high at 100 yards.)

   Now, someone may say that you can get one of the Savage combo guns, with the .30-30 barrel on bottom, and the .22 LR on top, but sorry, that won't do it.  You definitely need a repeater in the larger caliber, and you definitely need the ability to mount a 3 power scope for the larger caliber.

   So, get a lightweight .30 caliber rifle, with a 20 inch barrel, and get an ultra-light .22 LR with an 16 or 18 inch barrel, that will break down into a small carry pack, such as the Marlin Papoose, or a Henry Survival Rifle, etc (that stores the barrel inside of a plastic stock).

Regards,

Mannyrock
   

[SHOOTALL]

How bout a Ruger Hawkeye - 18 inch bbl full length stock ( protect bbl ),and a 30 cal. carbine adapter ? or maybe a 327 federal adapter ?

[SHOOTALL]

BTW that Ruger was in 308

[teamnelson]

My preference on the .223 with .22 adapter is a Contender. MCACE makes a specific TC adapter that lets you use the Contender's selector instead of a little plug, which I see losing when I needed it.

I like the Hawkeye idea. I also like a Handi 30-30 with a .32 H&R adapter, especially if you've got a .32 sidearm. Not a repeater, but a hunter can place one shot where an alarmist with an AR couldn't hit with 30. I'm also thinking a Handi .357 Max for similar reasons - light subsonic .38s all the way up to hot .357 Max (near .35 Remington), and a revolver to match. Or a lever 357 if you needed multiple shots - even with a 24" barrel, you're still short and light, but you can squeeze a bit more out of a hot magnum (some say near 30-30).

On a 22 rifle ... for what you would use it for, would a long barreled pistol meet the requirement? If you practice silhouette, you can hit game with a pistol at 100yds - which is as far as I trust the .22LR to be meaningful.

[schoolmaster]

I did not set many parameters with my original statement. My purpose was to turn attention to the use of silencers in a situation where a person would not want to be easy to find/locate. The suppressed .22 would be a great way to take small game/birds for the pot without attracting unwanted attention. During the course of this discussion many different and useful techniques have been presented that have merit. In my case I would not last too long without the meds I need to keep going so I need enough armament to protect myself until the medication runs out. One firearm would not be ideal to try to do everything with but would be better then nothing. But one of the firearms I would like to have around would be a silenced .22

[teamnelson]

This thread has definitely got me looking into subsonic loads for some of my favorite calibers. I used to read alot about the silenced 300 whisper on a contender frame. I think Murphy was an optimist, so whatever gun is still functional regardless of caliber may have to be the ideal.  I still think a single shot action with different barrels, one of which is suppressed, would give you lots of options, least maintenance requirements. Throw in some chamber adapters in common calibers and you've got even more options. And in the scenario were discussing BATFE isn't going to be around to care if you've converted your pistol to a rifle and back again.

[SHOOTALL]

A friend has a 308 with a screw on can , with subsonic loads it is very quiet . to expand on your idea a 30 carbine in the same rifle and with correct load would be a poor mans 300 whisper .

[Yankee1]

Hi
   I would use one of my air rifles for small game Turkey,rabbit,squirrel,quail all of which are in abundance here.  For large game I would use one of my bows.
I would use firearms for personal defense. Probably an 30.06 and a 45acp.
Where I live deer are plentiful and easy to kill.  The air rifles and the bows are quiet and if I need personal defense noise will not matter and I'll more than likely have an opportunity to collect their weapons. I know it sounds optimistic however I'm being truthful. Thats what I think.
                                        Yankee1
                                       

[MarkNJ]

Perhaps for survival, you need the most reliable gun possible. The paliuntod slam-fire gun from the Philippines seems to be about the most simple, with only two parts. Crude and very effective at close range, they are like a big zip gun. A WWII vet named Richardson tried selling them after that war but without much success.

here's what his guns look like

 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=128690113

The wartime guns were even simpler than these. The guns were used to kill Japanese soldiers at close range before taking the dead soldiers rifle and equipment. They would have been effective in the confines of a jungle.

Easy to make and easy to maintain. I suppose with a vice, a hacksaw, a drill with bits and a supply of pipe, you could arm your friendly neighbours as well

[jlwilliams]

Now that's down and dirty.

[Chappers]

It just shows that in most cases you don’t need an arsenal just ingenuity.

[teamnelson]

Just about every discussion of the ideal rifle winds up with two general schools of thought: 1) the tool selection is important; 2) ingenuity is more important than tools. Personally, the concept of survival for me seems to give more credence to the ingenuity school. Training and conditioning are more important than tools, as well as familiarity. I'd give wide berth to any man with a gun he KNOWS like a part of his own body, regardless of caliber or complexity.

[MarkNJ]

I've had a little more thought on this and have come up with the following. Feel free to pick holes in it 


If or when SHTF or TEOTWAWKI happens, a wise man will avoid contact with everybody, excluding family and close friends. The scenario's are too numerous to list here but an avoidance and or stealth mentality for the first six months at least, will increase the chances of survival. The same stealth mentality should roll over to your possesions, including your rifle.

First and foremost, the rifle will need to be suppressed. 2nd, the rifle must be silent in operation ie; a silent action and 3rd, be chambered in a common caliber suitable for killing deer at least out to 200 yards. Iron sights are a must and a scope is optional.

Having a suppressed rifle in a deer caliber will mean having 2 loads, a standard sonic load and a subsonic load. The standard load will be factory or a handload close to factory spec's. The subsonic load will generally fire a heavier bullet at around 1000fps and is handloaded. Suppressed rifles offer sound signature reduction, a big decrease in recoil and absorb the muzzle blast and flash. Subsonic ammo through a suppressor sounds  like a low powered airgun and sonic ammo sounds like a 22 magnum.

The rifles action must be silent. The "pwuft" sound of a suppressed rifle is nothing compared to the 'clank click clank' of an action cycling, whether it's a semi, bolt, pump or lever. My rifle is a break barrel single-shot and this action is silent. This means that relatively quick additional shots can be made without action noise. During the quiet still of dawn or dusk, the sound of a suppressed rifle firing subsonic rounds is hard to identify and pinpoint. The sound of an action cycling is distintive, again, regardless of action type.

The caliber isn't critical though still important. Subsonic calibers work best starting at 180 grains and up so a caliber that offers bullets in this weight and more is desireable. Keep in mind the need to kill a deer out at least to 200 yards. The case size and bore should be common and not to large (for logistical reasons plus smaller cases are more economical to reload).
I decided on a 308.

Once you have your suppressed rifle and have worked up a subsonic load, get out and practise alot. Go hunting using both types of ammo and try small game as well as deer sized animals. Practise hunting like your a bowhunter, try long range shooting with both ammo types, practise silent loading, fit a sling and carry it all day....generally get to know it well.
Not being seen, not being heard and rifle familiarity will help you survive.

   

[45-70.gov]

ok  here  are the flaws  in  your  thinking  you  ask for

the can  will  cover  your   open sights
go  with  a red  dot  looking over  your suppressor
go with a red  dot  because  they  work  great at  night
tho  they  are battery dependent so stock  pile  lithium bateries
a  suppressed weapon  is  not a long range gun  so  red  dot  is plenty of   magnification


you suggest  a  quiet  action....
my  quess  is  you never  heard  a bullet  hit  a chest cavity  before
nothing  wrong with a quiet  action  but...there  will  be noise  when the bullet  hits the bone

[teamnelson]

How big a deer? Dressed out to how many lbs? How big a family are you feeding?
Let's say 100+lb deer at 200yds silent. No one hears the bullet hit the bone.

How are you going to silently approach your kill, if it drops on one shot? If it doesn't your stealth is blown because even if you hold tight and let it run, someone will find a bled out carcass, track the trail back and know there's a shooter within a few hundred yards. Another hunter will narrow it down to a few hides. But let's say it drops. And let's say you manage to sneak up on the carcass. How are you gonna silently lug it back to your hide? Can't dress and part it out on site or you give up your hunting ground when someone finds the entrails and no body - dogs will find the blood easy and cats. So silently now were going to firemans carry a 100+ lb deer with rifle and pack, silently back to the hide. Blood trail leaking down your body ... Or we stuff tampons in the entry and exit wounds (no really, it works).

Back at the hide we dress it out to 50+lbs of meat (numbers vary by your deer). Family of four can make that last a month and a half if they're smart. 4 deer that way and your through 6 mos.

Not mocking your choice at all, just when you think through what you'd have to do to stay stealthy over and above a suppressed .30 cal, I think bow, traps etc are more in line. I don't have the capacity to store dressed game long term w/o power, so I plan to eat small animals, fowl and fish and only occaissionally go big game.

[MarkNJ]

Thanks guys, some good points.
45-70.gov,  my Rossi single-shot is fitted with sights off a Lee Enfield 303. With these I see over the can. I have a red dot sight (aimpoint) but have reliability issues with it so it's not used although I like the idea. Yes, I've heard the "thwack" noise (after a slight time delay) of a bullet strike and yes it is louder than the rifle but it will not attract attention half a mile down the valley. Not many people use their subsonic rifles for long range shooting but it is possible. I limit myself to 100 yards.
If hunting game, regardless of size and your up close and take a shot but miss ....... the animal will look toward the bullet strike, not the shooter. This also works for multiple targets, if one is hit the others will look to the victim, there being no noisy gunfire to spook them. A quiet action will allow another shot. Same goes for bad guys, they will focus on the bullet strike momentarily before reacting.
For longer ranges, use the standard ammo through the suppressor. With no muzzle blast, (just the sonic crack) the shot origin is hard to locate.
TeamNelson, I limit myself to 100 yards for subsonic shooting (at this stage) and within that distance, I am confident in my bullet placement into the 'boiler room'. A deer will seldom move far from a well placed shot. If another hunter is close enough to pick up on my animals blood trail, then I need to leave the area,  quickly.
I agree, traps, snares, nets etc will be the most productive for meat gathering and the majority of game actually shot, will be of the rabbit (cottontail), turkey size and subsonic ammo is fine here also.

again thanks guys

[WD45]

I don't know about all this sneaky , stealthy have no contact with anyone stuff. In a real bad situation the woods and fields will be crawling with every wanna be hunter that has a gun trying to kill something to eat. Think about opening day of deer season ... times 100.

OK.. with all us GBO members that are going to be crawling through the woods when crap hits the fan we need a password and secret handshake so as we know who each other is That way we can watch each others back instead of shootin at each other and band together in little GBO camps    Whilst I make a little light humor here thats pretty much what they did in this country some 200 years ago and there was no where near the population there is now. People had to band together or they did not last long. There were a lot of times farm work and such had to be done with several men and some just standing guard in case of attack. Instead of roving bands of indians it will be roving gangs of scavengers. City dwellers are not the self reliant individualist thinkers that we are. That being said there is relative safety in numbers and I am no spring chicken. we may do well to find a few good friends to hunker down with than to try and go it alone. If you manage to kill something without being noticed and get it back to camp or where ever you are staying you will have to cook it ir eat it raw. If it is cold you will need a fire to stay warm. You can smell a good wood fire a good distance away even if you don't see smoke you know someone is close. Heck, in my area it is so hilly I would die of a heart attack trying to drag a deer or pack a good portion of it very far by myself.... How bout those of you with young families ? If you had to high tail it through the woods/ wilderness so to speak , How fast you going to go and how far you going to get with maybe a wife and a couple small yunguns between 2 and 8 that can't keep up with you or you have to carry.... Just more to think about

[teamnelson]

... and let's say you've got dysentery or pnuemonia and you haven't slept or eaten in days. Or better still you've got a clipped wing and junior needs to tag dinner or someone might not make it to morning. Things were all confident in during regular season go out the window quick.

Try running 10 miles in your kit with rifle to your favorite hunting ground this season. Tell us about shot placement and confidence. Seriously, give it a test. Try doing that hungover to simulate bad flulike symptoms, and no coffee. Some would say that's unsafe and they'd be right, but your choice of tool should be tested in likely conditions. If you master those conditions I'd say your choice is solid.

I just don't think the tool is as important as the mind behind it, is all.

Untrained people look to the victim, that's true. Having been on the other end of sniper fire I may do things differently, and there's alot of us like that these days.

[MarkNJ]

TeamNelson, you have some valid points. Being struck with a flu or something equally bad will effect all of us equally, regardless of what weapon we choose to carry. Where I live, much of the hunting terrain is steep country, heavily forrested in semi-subtropical flora so it is rare for me to hunt from a blind or to still-shoot. Instead, I tramp or when in a likely area, I stalk. This means I've experianced shooting while breathing heavily through exersion. It also means I'm not shy about carring the rifle all day through some pretty thick country. Now if junior needs to use the rifle he can, the suppressed 308 with sonic loads feels like a 223 in recoil, has less sound signature and is accurate way out past 300 yards if he is capable of shooting that far. Although in saying that, his game choice would probably be the smaller variety, be a lot closer and subsonic ammo would be used.

I agree, the mind is all important and your greatest asset. So too is training with your weapon of choice. My goal is to simply limit audible gunfire as much as possible, decreasing the risk of alerting possible 'nasties'. 

Over here there are very few people around who have been in action recently so I would gamble that any encounters would be with people who have not got past the level of training recieved by the Police or the average non-com. There are plenty of recent vets in the US, over here, just a handful so I don't expect to cross paths with experianced and well trained soldiers.

WD45, here there is a population of around 4 million in a country roughly the size of California. Our wilderness areas cover almost a quarter of the landmass, the rest being farm and horticulture and of course the urban areas. If everybody here was to 'go bush', you could still walk all day without seeing anyone. Of course that won't happen so I'm sure over population of the forests here wouldn't happen during a major upheaval. Yes, if I knew of groups living close by with similar thoughts to mine, then I would try to work together but would still remain generally "reclusive" for as long as possible.
You talk of moving with children (a very real and valid point in it's own right), wouldn't this effect everybody with families, not just somebody with a suppressed rifle 

thanks for the constructive criticism guys

[WD45]

NO COFFEE !!!!!! Ok boys, I can deal with a lot of crap , but NO coffee may put me right over the edge
Just makes you think of all the things we take for granted on a daily basis.

Maybe the ideal survival rifle could be ANY rifle you could get your hands on that has any ammo available

[mannyrock]

Dear Guys,


  I believe that if you live in the U.S. east of the Mississippi River, or in any state on the West Coast, the concept that you are somehow going to be "hidden" on your homestead is complete and utter nonsense.  There are over 300 MILLION people in the U.S.  Even if that number were somehow very drastically reduced, everyone living within 10 miles of you is going to know exactly who you are and exactly where you live.

      You will be burning a wood fire every day, cooking food every day, having contact with neighbors (in some form or fashion) at least once a week, trading for goods at least once a month.   Unless you have a homestead large enough to hunt on, you are going to be traveling on foot to and from hunting areas.  You are going to be traveling on foot to and from some type of "doctor" for help for your children.  You are going to have some type of livestock, and believe me you can hear a goat bleat, a cow bawl, and a horse whinnie, for well over a mile on any clear morning or evening.   You can hear a normal human voice for about the same distance.

      I lived in a very rural area of West Tennessee for 14 years on a large farm.  My nearest neighbors were in a farm house 1.25 miles away.  Both farms had plenty of trees and were not large open fields.  And yet,  I could hear them open and close their front door every morning.  On clear nights, I could hear them talking on their front porch.

    Even on the U.S. colonial frontier, when the populations were incredibly sparse, everyone ended up knowing exactly who lived where, in very short order.

  Regards,

Mannyrock

[torpedoman]

suppressor is useless unless the bullet is sub sonic.

[MarkNJ]

torpedoman, sorry I have to disagree. A suppressor is very useful with full power sonic ammunition because it eliminates all the muzzle blast, all the muzzle flash and reduces felt recoil. All you get is the sonic crack of the projectile breaking the sound barrier and this is hard to locate by game or bad guys.
A suppressor makes light work of a day at the range and something about the projectile exiting the baffles helps with accuracy. Yes, it's noisy but nothing like the sound of any standard rifle. More like a .22 magnum.
In fact, just imagine your rifle has the noise of a 22 magnum and the recoil of a 223 then thats what shooting a suppressed 308 is like. Then throw in some subsonic loads and eliminate the noise altogether.

[billy_56081]

An SKS is the best survival rifle available.

A smart guy would have bought a bunch of SKS's years ago stripped em down greased am up and buried them in pvc with 1000 rounds for about $200 each. What more can you ask for, reliable, accurate, cheep, and most if all available. 

[teamnelson]

Seen firsthand what a trained sniper with a good weapon can do in urban terrain ... we spenta few weeks trying to get him, turns out he was shooting through a busted tail light from inside the car. Could be very handy in a city.

Anybody reload for their one gun? Anybody done an efficiency trial yet? Like maximum number of loads per pound and still be useful? I live on a small island so my current stock would be all I get. That's why I'm Leary of big cased caliber.

[jcn59]

I'd rather go down fight'n than runnin'.   I'd like for my "survival rifle"  to be a "Ma Duece" and lots of ammo because I'm too old to run.  I already know I'm gonna die someday, probably as soon as my blood presure meds are gone.

I may arm my neighbors with the "little stuff" that I already own.

Some things are worth fighting for.

[don heath]

Torpedo man - A supressor works fine with normal ammo- does all that is required. It stops the location of the man firing being identified. It also saves your ears so you can hear trouble sneeking up. Having now used a supressor on my 9,3x62, .308 and AR15 I would never consider using a rifle without one in a survival situation.

Billy - been shot at by a few guys armed with SKS's. Never been hit and never yet seen an accurate one!

A scope is the only sensible sight option - and I have very good eyesight! (don't wear glasses and still shoot iron sights competitively out to 900m=. Everybodies ideal will vary, but I have been using a Leupold 1-4, a Nikkon 1,5-6, Trijicon 1-4 and a Leupold 1,5-5 with illuminated reticule for the last 7 years. Have settled on the 1,5-5 Ill as ideal for hunting in Africa - and pretty good for a survival scope. Still usable if the batteries are flat . A rifle is only as good as the operators ability to see the target. If you are using a small bore (.223 or 6mm) to harvest game as well, then accurate shot placement is critical. For defence beyond 100m, you are looking for creeping, sneaky targets rather than fleeting ones. Nobody (except the suicidal), assults a possition from more than 100m unless they have very good fire support. They sneak into position and then try advancing from cover to cover.

[MarkNJ]

TeamNelson, here are my 308 subsonic loads. I understand what you say about being isolated on an island.

7.4 grains of Trailboss, 150 grain Berry's 30/30 plated bullet, 950fps
7.2 grains of Trailboss, 165 grain H&N coated bullet, 960fps
12.6 grains of Trailboss, 220 grain Sierra RN bullet, 948fps

6.7 grains of AS30N, 150 grain Berry's 30/30 plated bullet, 1000fps
5.9 grains of AS30N, 165 grain H&N coated bullet, 980fps
9.2 grains of AS30N, 220 grain Sierra RN bullet 930fps

The Trailboss powder (Hodgdon) is made by ADI in Australia and marketed by Hodgdon in the US and is a favourite of the Cowboy action shooters. The AS30N is another ADI powder, sold as Clays in the US and is very very close to Red Dot. The Trailboss offers better consistancy and with my favourite subsonic load of 12.6 grains and the long 220 grain bullet, I get better accuracy but is a bulky powder so dosn't go as far as the equivilant weight of AS30N. In saying that, the Trailboss powder nearly fills the 308 case so double charging dosn't happen.
I have encountered case shrinkage after only 3 or 4 subsonic loads, something I havn't addressed yet although I hope to fix that by loading a middle load to fireform again. The cases don't seem to stretch so I am expecting........well,...hoping for at least 30, maybe 50 reloads per case for subsonic rounds.

I have also tried "the Load" using 13 grains of AS30N instead of Red Dot with both the Berry's and H&N bullets and averaged 1550 to 1590 fps but stay away from surplus brass or thick cases as the decreased case capacity does increase the pressure levels and I was having pressure problems with this brass. Stick to common commercial US brands for "the load". With subsonic loads, the brass type dosn't matter.

Don, intersting comments about attacking a position, or at least defending one. Perhaps having a dwelling in a clearing of 4 or 5 acres to decrease the chance of a hidden final assult?

 

[don heath]

Mark - no man can defend a house alone. A friend of mine, Martin Olds, was murdered by Zimbabwe government malitia in 2000 at the real begining of the farm invasions. Martin was a 'tough guy' and his murder was meant as a warning to other farmers.

Martin had been warned that he might be attacked. He carried a concealed handgun and had a 12g pump and AR15 to hand.  His house was surounded by a 12' "security fence". Between 90 and 100 malitia backed by police arrived at his farm undetected. He was lured to the gate to talk to the police - when about 20 malita opened up on him. He was wounded, but made it back to the house (a typical brick African Farm house-ie bullet proof). The malitia attacked whilst the police set up road blocks to prevent help arriving. It took the malitia 3hrs to kill martin- he had been hit in both legs and mobility was an issue- he was ultimately unable to defend all points and the house was set on fire with petrol bombs. He was killed as he stumbled from the smoke filled house. 19 malitia died (most from shotgun wounds) and more than 20 sustained injuries. 5 malitia died inside the house.

conclusion- a lone rifleman needs a small, well protected possition with a good field of fire. Once Martin got his AR 15 into action all atacks were launched at the oposite side of the house to the one he was shooting from.

From the Rhodesian war and my own experience in the sundry unpleasntries, any thing that open up the range increases the defenders advantage.