Author Topic: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?  (Read 1267 times)

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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« on: April 05, 2009, 02:07:57 AM »
We were all taught to believe this is true but is it? Just where did Lincoln say this and when? Lincoln talked about tariff's and he talked about saving the Union. Was Slavery illegal in this Union Lincoln wanted to save? NO In point of fact the slaves in that Northern union weren't freed at the end of the war, they were freed in 1868 a full 3 years after the war was over and Lincoln dead. The true fact is that we don't know when or if Lincoln would have ever freed any slaves because he couldn't have unless he wanted to break another Constitutional law.

Some thoughts on this and other matters:

http://www.rebelgray.com/Slavery02.htm

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13. That there were more free blacks in the South than in the North in 1860?  According to the United States Census of 1860, the free states had 222,745 Free Negroes, and the slave states had 259,078 free blacks.  These numbers were given in a small New York Times article on 31 March 1862, with the note that "the slave-holding states have given a wider extension to the principle of emancipation than the non-slaveholding states.  This is a fact which should not be forgotten by those who would admire philanthropy in deed rather than in words."

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In spite of pages of facts that show that the North had slave states, that the North was at least as racist as anywhere else; in spite of evidence that tens of thousands of Southern blacks fought in defense of the Confederacy, in spite of the evidence that slavery would have died on its own within a generation, many of us still believe that the Civil War was fought to end slavery, because those other reasons just don't provide the cognitive balance that justifies wasting the lives of 600,000 American men.

Some other facts that are an embarrassment to Lincoln Worshipers

http://www.southernmessenger.org/History.htm

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In 1862 there was a small "war" between federal soldiers and the Santee Sioux Indians of Minnesota. At the end of the hostilities 303 Indians who were merely present at the conclusion of the fighting were arrested, imprisoned, and scheduled to be executed after military "trials" or tribunals that lasted about ten minutes each, according to David Nichols, author of Lincoln and the Indians. As Nichols explains, Lincoln was fearful that the European powers might be encouraged to be more supportive of the Confederacy if they learned of a mass execution of 303 men whose guilt had not been proven beyond reasonable doubt, so he pared the number down to just 39. This turned out to be the largest mass execution in American history yet, incredibly, some historians praise rather than criticize the Lincoln administration for it because "it could have been worse."

I love that "it could have been worse" Hmmm I wonder if those 39 people see it that way? I bet not.

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Only recently have historians begun to look carefully
at the Old North, and some good books have appeared. If there is one certain
indisputable generalization we can make about the North in the War and the
periods before and after, it is this: The Union side NEVER did anything with
a primary motive of benevolence toward the black population of America.


Southerners have historically been the most loyal to the United States and
ready to fight in its defense of all Americans. They are also the Americans
most loyal to their own region and their own states, and the most likely to
remain in their native territory. This is not paradoxical because loyalty is
an indivisible quality of character. Their loyalty makes Southerners natural
enemies of those powerful Americans who are not loyal to their people or
country but to the government and the "propositions" it allegedly
represents.

And just how did Lincoln feel about Sherman's march to the sea to make Georgia howl? 

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In his memoirs Sherman wrote that when he met with Lincoln after his March to the Sea was completed, Lincoln was eager to hear the stories of how thousands of Southern civilians, mostly women, children, and old men, were plundered, sometimes murdered, and rendered homeless. Lincoln, according to Sherman, laughed almost uncontrollably at the stories. Even Sherman biographer Lee Kennett, who writes very favorably of the general, concluded that had the Confederates won the war, they would have been "justified in stringing up President Lincoln and the entire Union high command for violation of the laws of war, specifically for waging war against noncombatants."  Thomas J. DiLorenzo

Yep, thats Lincoln, the saint, alright!

And last but not least this from the NewJersey legislature of the times:

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"The objective of dismembering the highest representative assembly in
the nation, and humiliating a State of the Union, faithful at all times
to all its obligations, and the object of said amendment were one - to
place new and unheard of powers in the hands of a faction, that it might
absorb to itself all executive, judicial and legislative power,
necessary to secure to itself immunity for the unconstitutional acts it
had already committed, and those that it has since inflicted on a too
patient people."

Joint Resolution, State of New Jersey Legislature

Seems to me that NJ had Lincoln and his cronies dead to rights.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Yankee1

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2009, 10:56:40 AM »
From what I understand The south was trying to buy agricultural equipment from Europe because is cost far less to buy from Europe and ship it than to purchase it from the north.  The northern industry owners had their politicians put heavy tariffs on the imported machinery. This was the initial cause of the war.
As far as slavery is concerned, Europeans did not like what the north was doing to the south and they had demonstrations. popular opinion in Europe was against the north. Lincoln realizing he had to do something decided to say that the war was being fought to free the slaves which would change it into a Nobel pursuit instead of what it actually was. which was a play to force the southerners to buy their equipment at grossly exaggerated prices. Of course the history books won't write this version of what actually happened.
                                        Yankee1
From the mountains of Oregon

Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2009, 05:35:01 PM »
Welcome to the forum Yankee1. You got the jist of it.
It wasn't just the imports to the South, but exports From the South, as well. Europe was willing to pay a much higher price for cotton and most food crops than the North was willing to pay. Hey, it was free enterprise; sell to the one willing to pay the most for the product.

You are absolutely right about the "history" books not teaching what really happened.

SBG

DEO VINDICE
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2009, 06:15:48 PM »
Didn't Lincoln say that he didn't care about slavery, and to uphold the union he would accept slavery at one point.

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In his 1860 inaugural address, he said: "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Two years later, President Lincoln wrote: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery.
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Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2009, 12:35:59 AM »
Yankee 1, welcome, we hope you will pull up a chair and sit awhile around our old pot bellied stove and share your thoughts.

Oldshooter, you are so very right and Lincoln's thoughts and words on this matter are well recorded yet all the while there are those who will point to the sayings that Lincoln professed sorrow at the plite of the Black man. It is unfortunate that those same people forget that there is a difference between feeling sorry for something and doing something to correct it. Does anyone here pass by a homeless person without feeling both bad for that person and at the same time feeling "thank the lord thats not me." Yet the Homeless litter our cities and their numbers grow. Did Obama not work to help the disenfranchized in Chicago? Yet as president where are the laws to improve their lot? Jimmy Carter has done more as a worker for HFH than he EVER did as President to help the poor and unwanted to get a leg up. Why is that, I wonder, is he but ashamed that while he had the power he did nothing so now he must seem to care by doing something? Why am I unimpressed!

Jefferson Davis had more feeling for the black man in his little finger than Lincoln did in his whole body. Davis couldn't walk passed a woman beating a small black boy without reacting and taking that same boy into his home as his own yet Lincoln walked by the Washington slave pit every day of the last 4+ years of his life as President and freed not one person. The Slave owner (some call traitor) wanted to lift the black man up to where he could take care of himself and his family while the GREAT manipulator only wanted to ship them all back to Africa because they were inferior.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2009, 06:26:45 AM »
Jefferson Davis had more feeling for the black man in his little finger than Lincoln did in his whole body. Davis couldn't walk past a woman beating a small black boy without reacting and taking that same boy into his home as his own, yet Lincoln walked by the Washington slave pit every day of the last 4+ years of his life as President and freed not one person. The Slave owner (some call traitor) wanted to lift the black man up to where he could take care of himself and his family while the GREAT manipulator only wanted to ship them all back to Africa because they were inferior.

AMEN To That !

The busiest slave market in North America was only a couple hundred yards away from the White House IN Washington, D.C. (For those not paying attention, that's in THE NORTH !)  :o  If Lincoln felt so much sorrow for blacks, how could he allow this to take place right at his front door, yet criticize Southerners for doing FAR LESS?

I don't believe for one second that Lincoln felt sorrow for the plight of blacks on ANY level. How else could he actually EXCLUDE them from freedom in the Emancipation Proclamation, assuming he even had the authority to free them in the first place? (Which he did not.) Why else would he want to ship them back to Africa, not to their ancestral homes, but to Liberia, a country of his own making, where the U.S. would retain control over them?

The Great Emancipator? The Great Humanitarian?? The Greatest President of all time????   Plllease!!!  I don't think so!

To paraphrase something Ga.windbreak posted on another thread, Show me ONE descent thing Lincoln ever did for a single black person. Show me ONE black person that ever benefited from Lincoln being President, One kindness ever shown to a black person, One black he helped to raise up from the pitts of hell that he thought they were in!
Lincoln wouldn't even allow Frederick Douglas in the White House! Douglas was far from ever being in the pitts of hell. Lincoln refused to be bothered by blacks. So where Are all these blacks he emancipated? Where Are all the blacks he was such a great humanitarian toward?
 
You won't find any of these people. Not one. Because they don't exist! Instead, let me present to you the Four Million + (4,000,000 +) former slaves of the South, that were FORCED into the streets and into a life they were not allowed to be prepared for! They were FORCED into destitution by Abraham Lincoln! An estimated 97% of whom could not read and write their own names, much less walk into a store to make a purchase of any kind! They didn't know how to conduct business. Because the North would not allow for their education and social training, these people were thrust back to LESS than they were in Africa! Were it not for their former masters, and most whites in the South, the vast majority of them would have perished. They had no means of supporting themselves, much less their families. An interesting note to all of this is the fact that slaves being held in the North were, for the most part, not trained in social skills or given a formal education, either. Even though Northern slave holders were afforded a system of gradual emancipation of their slaves, they didn't want them to be educated because they felt the blacks would be in too much competition for jobs in the North. They felt so strongly about this that MOST Northern states actually passed laws Forbidding free blacks to live in their states!
And this was a Preferred law that was present in Illinois, the Land O' Lincoln! He actually voted FOR this law while in the Illinois Senate! 


SBG
DEO VINDICE

"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline Victor3

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2009, 01:56:51 AM »
Jimmy Carter has done more as a worker for HFH than he EVER did as President to help the poor and unwanted to get a leg up. Why is that, I wonder, is he but ashamed that while he had the power he did nothing so now he must seem to care by doing something? Why am I unimpressed!

 GW,

 I may be wrong, but from what I've seen concerning Carter it seems he did at least want to do right (as he saw it) by the people, not only for his personal or party's political gain.

 I don't believe he ever "had the power" to do it; he seemed to me to be an outsider who didn't know how to get things done in Washington via the required political BS. You may be right about him now wanting to make up for his impotent Presidency. I don't know.

 Don't get me wrong; I'm no Dem, wasn't old enough to vote for him, and don't now support much of what he stood for in his time. Just seems to me that he has a little more character than the average recent US president, Dem OR GOP.

 Sorry if this is drifting from the topic - At least you know this Northerner is reading your posts and becoming more edjucated.

 BTW, my Wife's 91 year-old Grandfather is still helping build houses with HFH out of Chapel Hill, NC. I may be prejudiced.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Dee

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2009, 02:04:37 AM »
Carter was a failure no doubt, but what preceded him was little better, and most AFTER him has been a failure for the most part. Bush 2 on the other hand has been QUITE SUCCESSFUL, and not in ERODING states rights, but DESTROYING states rights. His replacement will complete the task, and is working on it diligently.

I have posted this before, but will remind everyone here to simply do a search on LINCOLN'S RACIST REMARKS in speeches, and his true colors will simply jump right out at you. I may have posted a website, but do not have the time now to research that fact or not.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline SouthernByGrace

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2009, 02:45:46 AM »
Hey DEE !!

Where have you been? Good to see you dropping by for a visit.

SBG
"Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees..."
Final words spoken by Gen. Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson, CSA

Offline Dee

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2009, 03:15:55 AM »
Trying to keep fire in the fireplace. The economy in this part of Texas is less than desirable at the present. Plus, some illness in the family, has us chasing around the panhandle.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2009, 05:08:52 AM »
Quote
I'm no Dem, wasn't old enough to vote for him, and don't now support much of what he stood for in his time. Just seems to me that he has a little more character than the average recent US president, Dem OR GOP.

DONT WANT TO SIDETRACK THE THREAD BUT I CANT LET THAT GO!

Well I sure am old enough to have not voted for him! I told everyone I knew then that he was going to wreck our economy and destroy foreign policy. He got elected just like Obama did because everyone was PO'd at the last Republican, about watergate and did not trust the republican (ford) beacause he let Nixon off the hook for lying about it. I remember interest rates at 20 % and I aint talking credit card. IN flation was through the roof. He was a disaster as president and he still runs his liberal mouth to sabotage the Republican in office at the time!

Sure he builds house for folk now..................but when he aint doing that he goes around the world undermining whatever the current conservative or Republican president is trying to do. He blames us for everything that goes wrong in the world.  Do a search for his foreign policy statements! He make an Art form of being an Idiot!  After his performance as President, he should build houses for the poor and shut the hell up!

I'm through ranting now , MY apologies SBG and GW
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Ga.windbreak

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2009, 06:09:29 AM »
Oldshooter, my man, get it on!!! ;D One should never apologize for telling the truth. Carter's idea of foreign policy is to hand a Bible, as a gift, to the Commies. (Sorry I can't spell that fools name.  :-[).

And I agree, the three s's apply here! ;)

Dee I'd be remiss if I didn't second SBG's welcome back, it's damn good to hear from you, my friend.
"Men do not differ about what
Things they will call evils;
They differ enormously about what evils
They will call excusable." - G.K. Chesterton

"It starts when you begin to overlook bad manners. Anytime you quit hearing "sir" and "ma'am", the end is pretty much in sight."-Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men

Private John Walker Roberts CSA 19th Battalion Georgia Cavalry - Loyalty is a most precious trait - RIP

Offline Dee

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2009, 09:47:55 AM »
Quote
I'm no Dem, wasn't old enough to vote for him, and don't now support much of what he stood for in his time. Just seems to me that he has a little more character than the average recent US president, Dem OR GOP.

DONT WANT TO SIDETRACK THE THREAD BUT I CANT LET THAT GO!

Well I sure am old enough to have not voted for him! I told everyone I knew then that he was going to wreck our economy and destroy foreign policy. He got elected just like Obama did because everyone was PO'd at the last Republican, about watergate and did not trust the republican (ford) beacause he let Nixon off the hook for lying about it. I remember interest rates at 20 % and I aint talking credit card. IN flation was through the roof. He was a disaster as president and he still runs his liberal mouth to sabotage the Republican in office at the time!

Sure he builds house for folk now..................but when he aint doing that he goes around the world undermining whatever the current conservative or Republican president is trying to do. He blames us for everything that goes wrong in the world.  Do a search for his foreign policy statements! He make an Art form of being an Idiot!  After his performance as President, he should build houses for the poor and shut the hell up!

I'm through ranting now , MY apologies SBG and GW

What in hell are you apologizing for. You just told the truth. I would imagine everyone here agrees with you save one. And I too am more than old enough to remember that moron's lack of intelligence.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2009, 01:48:01 PM »
Well I did not apologise for saying it so much as because it really had nothing to do with..Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?

Gotta know me by now Dee if I think it needs saying I say it/type it , good, bad or ugly! Sometimes all three!  ;)
“Owning a handgun doesn’t make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.”

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Offline Dee

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2009, 12:11:16 AM »
I stand corrected sir! ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Victor3

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Re: Did Lincoln/The North fight to free the slaves?
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2009, 01:17:23 AM »
 Thanks much for the gentle correction. Y'all take care now... Bubbye.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes