Hate to open this can of worms

[lonewolf_one]

Hi Folks,
           My posts seem to normally spark lively debates. I don't post them to start arguments. I have limited experience in the fields in which I post. I don't want to make uninformed decisions, so I post, looking to draw on the experience of the wide array of members who have far more experience than I. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I welcome the vast array of input. So without further adu(sp?), tonights two part question is this....
    What is the optimum ccw for a knockdown, dragout exchange of fire? Not that I'm expecting to be engaging in that sort of thing, but in the the 1 in (however many) million, billion, (whatever) chance that I find myself in that situation, I want to be prepared. I was thinking the springfield xd .45 gap but now it's been out awhile, I'd be interested in feedback on it.
    The second question is, do a lot of people carry backup firearms? I'm sure law enforcement officials do, but how about others? What are you carrying? Why?
   Lastly, how are you carrying? Please consider comfort and style of carry as well. Accessability, additional rounds etc.
Thanks for your input.

[jimster]

I don't think there is an answer to what kind of firearm is best.  It's whatever you can hit with and have practiced like crazy with, caliber won't matter if you miss, neither will speed, cause you won't be able to miss fast enough.  It's whatever you can hit with. 

Backups...I personally do not carry a back up, some do. 

How I carry?  Either IWB or OWB, same holster does it both,  and after many years of trying lots of holsters I have a box full of them, I finally found "the one" I like best.  Everyone is different with different shapes and weight. 

What I carry?  I carry a .45 cal 1911A1 most all the time, in some rare cases when it's really hot a small double action revolver, but most the time a 1911.  One spare mag.  Why?  Cause I can hit with it and that is what I've practiced with the most as far as defensive practice,  it's not because it's light and easy to conceal. (see above, a box full of holsters before I found one for me)   There are better choices for concealed carry, but my confidence lies with what I shoot the best, and what I probably will shoot the best with if I can't think straight and am in a pile of trouble.  If I decide to carry something else someday as a primary weapon I would need to spend lots of time with it first so there would be the same confidence. 
You'll get lots of replies on this one,  but the important thing is, if you carry a gun, be good with it, practice all the time, and if you can't get to the range a lot, practice presenting your weapon from it's concealed holster and dry fire it.   When the finish wears off of it from repeated drawing and live/dry firing , you'll be able to do it without thinking, which is what you'll need if something bad happens in a hurry.

[Savage]

As no one can perform everyday functions with the loadout to handle a worst case event, everyone has to compromise. Given your location, vocation, and lifestyle, you have to do your own risk assessment and decide what your loadout should be. It never hurts to carry more ammo than you think you'll need, within reason of course. I'd say the odds are even greater than those you quoted that you'll ever need more than your carry gun and a couple of reloads. Again, a backup gun is not a bad idea, just depends on how much you want to pack around on a regular basis. How you carry your gear is an individual thing, only you can determine what's best for you. Only thing I can say with certainty is that my plans do not include a firearm chambered for a non standard cartridge like the GAP.
Savage

[lonewolf_one]

Only thing I can say with certainty is that my plans do not include a firearm chambered for a non standard cartridge like the GAP.
Savage

Savage, would you mind elaborating on that?
Thanks

[slim rem 7]

 like you said its a subject that people feel strongly about..
 as a 25 yr old i carried a 25 titan that has yet to misfire..
 it would not be the variety that slides a bullet around the skull. jus wouldn t happen.. shoot thru a 55 gallon drum ..
 but then i could plan on handleing most problems with out a gun.. not so now..although i might surprize a young punk for a while..
   still i need the gun in quick reach all the time.. i have an .380 that done rite will discourage the heck out of mr. bad guy.. but sometimes i put my hand on it an the mag has popped out.. so i have to check it regularly.. for me the 38 snubby right where that 25 use to set in my pocket is my preference ..i have my gun fight gun in the truck.. god help both of us ,,if we ever get it that far.. somebody gonna die that day for sure.. better him than me..slim

[Savage]

Only thing I can say with certainty is that my plans do not include a firearm chambered for a non standard cartridge like the GAP.
Savage

Savage, would you mind elaborating on that?
Thanks

Sure, no problem.  In a "Worst Case" situation, you need to be able to utilize what's available. GAP ammo is hard to find in good times, may be impossible in bad times. I would feel the same about using something like the .41AE for a primary. In desperate times you might be able to aquire something standard like 9mm/.40/.45/.38/.357. Gotta think about logistics! Of course my idea of  "Worst Case" might be a little different than yours. I tend to go a little overboard.
Savage

[Oldshooter]

In desperate times you might be able to aquire something standard like 9mm/.40/.45/.38/.357.

I agree with that! Those calibers would be available if any were!

[lonewolf_one]

Only thing I can say with certainty is that my plans do not include a firearm chambered for a non standard cartridge like the GAP.
Savage

Savage, would you mind elaborating on that?
Thanks

Sure, no problem.  In a "Worst Case" situation, you need to be able to utilize what's available. GAP ammo is hard to find in good times, may be impossible in bad times. I would feel the same about using something like the .41AE for a primary. In desperate times you might be able to aquire something standard like 9mm/.40/.45/.38/.357. Gotta think about logistics! Of course my idea of  "Worst Case" might be a little different than yours. I tend to go a little overboard.
Savage

So if I understandyou correctly, your problem is not withe cartdidge itself but the availability thereof?
 So if one were fully stocked with ammo or had reloading capabilities. you woulnd't consider it a problem?

[45-70.gov]

don't get  too  hung up on  the  BEST FIGHTING  gun  to carry

get  the  BEST CARRY  gun

most  likely this gun will  be carried the rest of  your life  without  incident
unless it goes  off  by accedent
or  is left  at  home because it is  TOO  big
or  you can't find ammo for  it
so  it  MUST  be  safe  and light  and  no  hair triggers  as  in  single actions and enough power
no  hammers  to gently  let downor  slip  from your grip  after  the adrenalin  pump

a  38  0r 357  centinial  is  the  BEST CARRY  gun  around
12  to 14  ounces  in  alluminum or scantium
20 ounces  in  stainless
very safe and reliable action.....and  idiot/stress of  attack  proof

just  enough  power  to  keep  you safe  till  you get  to your shot gun


i  know  you ask  about  a fighting  gun
just mentioned this incase  you don't  disdinguish  between a fighting  gun and a carry gun

[Arier Blut]

Personally I carry a backup, but I am a LEO. I used to carry a glock 22 45 full size and mini. Now I carry an xd 45(acp) compact duty and sub compact. I favor the grip of the springfield over the glock. Main cc is in the small of the back, backup is left ankle. Mags are right hip. Personally I have always favored the 45. In warm weather I just have a 10 rd w/ no extension in the larger pistol. Jacket weather I carry a 13 with extension.

At work I have to carry the 23 compact 40 and 27 mini 40. I do not really care for either, but what do I know. It seems the full size 22 40 would be a bit user friendlier to people with large hands. I just make do with what they give me. I would be more vocal with my disdain but we are issued a select fire M-4 and UMP 40 so not to much to complain about accept when they take away the smg and stick us with the benelli novas.

[John R.]

The XD's are excellent pistols. What Savage is telling you, is to stay away from oddball calibers. Reason being, if you don't already have a stockpile of ammo for an oddball caiber, then you won't be aquiring some any time soon, due to the lack of ammo and components at this time.

[Savage]

So if I understandyou correctly, your problem is not withe cartdidge itself but the availability thereof?
 So if one were fully stocked with ammo or had reloading capabilities. you woulnd't consider it a problem?

Noting wrong with the performance of the GAP. It performs about as well as the ACP with most bullet weights.
Again, assuming you have this huge stock with you when you need it, and never need to resupply in the field, guess you'll be golden. To me, "Worst Case" means I might not make it home for an extended period. All the ammo and reloading supplies in the world won't be much help if you can't get to them. Anyone serious about survival in bad times has to consider logistics, not just ammo of course, but water, food and shelter. I would stay with ammo that might be available, like .223/762.x39/.308/.30-30/30.06/.22RF, in rifles, and the .22/.38/.357/9mm/.40/.45 in handguns. The odds of finding those are great, finding something like the GAP---------------well, not good. Just my opinion.
Your Choice,
Savage

[SHOOTALL]

The one you have with you at the time !
Day in day out its the one you can carry all the time . If you choose to carry it should be all the time when legal. If not how does one determine when his safety is less valueable ?
Next if you know the threat is elevated ( bad part of town , late night etc.) then add to your protection in the shape of a more powerful handgun or long gun .
a good min. is a 38 spl or .357 J frame or equal .
a good add is 45 acp. or 10 mm auto hi-cap even better OR 870 12 ga. w/buckshot . Rifle in 308 if needed .
most important you must be good with what ever you carry or it has less value .

[Mohawk]

   I carried a variety of .38/.357 S&W revolvers for as looooooooooooong as the captain said I could!!! What does that tell you 

[Empty Quiver]

You need to consider how much "hassle" you are willing to put up with. A Glock 21 with a several loaded mags will certainly keep you shooting into the wee hours of the morning. I don't want to be carrying around six pounds of gun ammo and harness leather all my life. A mag full of .45 ammo is heavy compared to 9mm.

If being able to lay down cover fire is your goal 9mm is a very good choice. Couple that with a handgun you can control, and depend on, along with an extra mag or two.

If you feel the need to leave home with better than 40 rnds maybe you should reevaluate your lifestyle, or get some counceling, m just say'n.

I'm carrying 8rnds of 40 and occasionaly throw an extra seven rnd mag in my pocket. Not LE and not inclined to act like one just keep a low profile and stay aware of my surroundings.

[rockbilly]

Doesn't make much difference what caliber you carry if you can hit your target.  I would venture to say that the majority of the folks here can qualify on a CCW course, but keep in mind, in a real world situation you and the perp will likely be moving.  Can you place your shot on a moving target?  How quick can you get your gun into play?

Carry what every you are comfortable with, but learn to shoot it, practice, practice and practice.  Did I say practice?  Point is if you can place a shot in the approximate 5 inch circle in the upper torso under these circumstances, then likely you can defuse a SHTF situation with whatevery you carry.

[williamlayton]

HUMMM, Good questions.
I evaluated the need for high capacity but have convinced myownself that the chances of a parking lot shoot-out which requires a reload too be too slim for the consideration.
My p239 wit 9 rounds of .357sigs is presently the highest capacity that I carry.
My new .38super, WHEN I GET IT---Vandenberg, do you hear me yelling ---will have about the same capacity.
Honestly the P220 in .45 , with 7+1 doesn't concern me.

There is always a back-up in the truck but I don't carry one on me.

I don't use scabbards. I stick it in my pants. I do own scabbards but am more comfortable without.
Blessings

[canon6]

I have carried a bunch of handguns over the last 48+ years.Revolvers, semiauto's, and even two shot derringer's.From 22lr to 45 ACP   I now carry a 9mm ,13 shot semi auto.DAO, weighs very little, I can  hit with it(the most single important consideration)and with the ammo available today ,is  more than acceptable.  hth    Doug

[jimster]

Rockbilly, you think just like I do.  Nothing matters if you miss, practice practice practice.  The more you practice the better chance you have of doing what you practice under stress when your brain is slightly scrambled.  Each shot fired needs to count for something.  How many times have we been to the gun range and see people burn up gobs of ammo in a big hurry as fast as they can?  But you get serious, and try to do everything right, and concentrate,  over and over, 30 rds of ammo and high concentration  2 or 3 times a week and dry firing at home is better than burning up 500 rds all at once with no concentration or method.  Plinking is great, don't get me wrong, it does teach trigger control and you can be a good shot, but self defense is different.  Like Rockbilly says, do you shoot on the move? Do you draw from your concealed holster a lot and concentrate on doing it the same way every time?  I know lot's of people who carry concealed with permits, only a few really practice seriously,  and it does not take gobs of rounds to get you mentally tired if your really serious.  When your done being serious though...feel free to burn up gobs of ammo plinking...it only helps!      

[Arier Blut]

Rockbilly, you think just like I do.  Nothing matters if you miss, practice practice practice.  The more you practice the better chance you have of doing what you practice under stress when your brain is slightly scrambled.  Each shot fired needs to count for something.  How many times have we been to the gun range and see people burn up gobs of ammo in a big hurry as fast as they can?  But you get serious, and try to do everything right, and concentrate,  over and over, 30 rds of ammo and high concentration  2 or 3 times a week and dry firing at home is better than burning up 500 rds all at once with no concentration or method.  Plinking is great, don't get me wrong, it does teach trigger control and you can be a good shot, but self defense is different.  Like Rockbilly says, do you shoot on the move? Do you draw from your concealed holster a lot and concentrate on doing it the same way every time?  I know lot's of people who carry concealed with permits, only a few really practice seriously,  and it does not take gobs of rounds to get you mentally tired if your really serious.  When your done being serious though...feel free to burn up gobs of ammo plinking...it only helps!      

Sir airsoft pistols with metal gear instead of plastic and co2 air pistols, either in the model of the one you carry makes excellent practice in addition to what you provided as well. At work they call it muscle memory. The more you can shoot while working on as you said concentration the better equipped you will be. Even dry fire drills with empty mag changes  and tap, rack and reassess will give the shooter a better feel for their pistol.
Good info by the way

[Mohawk]

  Dry fire excersises are crucial. Especially with a revolver. When you can't think, you will do what you know HOW TO DO! What you have trained yourself to do. Any fool that goes up against an armed citizen that has dry fired a revolver 50,000  times during the year better pack a lunch. Especially one that has his/her head in the game. Training is 99%. Caliber/Cartridge is 1%.

[SHOOTALL]

Mohawk , yep and a benifit is you are wearing the parts of the weapon getting a trigger job at the same time .

[WD45]

Run up and down the basement stairs a few times real quick then see how your aim is with your heart pounding like it might be in a real situation.. that makes good practice too. 

[kevthebassman]

There is a difference between the best pistol for a knock-down, drag-out firefight, and the best gun for concealed carry.  Springfield makes a .45 with (I think) 16 round capacity.  Or they make a 9mm with 20 rounds capacity.  Now, that's the kind of firepower I'd like if I knew I were going to have to use my handgun.

The only problem, is that there is no way in HELL that I'd carry that brick day in, day out, from now on.  I wouldn't have it when I needed it.

Now, North American Arms make those little 5 shot, 22lr mini revolvers, that will slip into your pocket and you'll scarcely even notice you have them.  You'd always have it, to be sure.  But I simply would not be comfortable with that little firepower.

So you see, the trick is in finding the balance between concealability and firepower.  Reliability factors in there as well.  For me and my mundane lifestyle, I've concluded that a snubnose .38 or .357 is the right balance.  I very rarely go anywhere that trouble is likely to happen.  I work in a little fabrication shop on a quiet road in a small town, I live on another quiet street in another small town.  When I do get out, it's never anywhere interesting enough to attract crime.  Rather dull, but reasonably safe.

If I lived and worked in North St. Louis, where you hear gunfire at night instead of crickets and frogs, I'd probably feel the need to get myself one of those new Springfields and maybe a kevlar vest.

[cwlongshot]

Hi Folks,
           My posts seem to normally spark lively debates. I don't post them to start arguments. I have limited experience in the fields in which I post. I don't want to make uninformed decisions, so I post, looking to draw on the experience of the wide array of members who have far more experience than I. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I welcome the vast array of input. So without further adu(sp?), tonights two part question is this....
    What is the optimum ccw for a knockdown, dragout exchange of fire? Not that I'm expecting to be engaging in that sort of thing, but in the the 1 in (however many) million, billion, (whatever) chance that I find myself in that situation, I want to be prepared. I was thinking the springfield xd .45 gap but now it's been out awhile, I'd be interested in feedback on it.
    The second question is, do a lot of people carry backup firearms? I'm sure law enforcement officials do, but how about others? What are you carrying? Why?
   Lastly, how are you carrying? Please consider comfort and style of carry as well. Accessability, additional rounds etc.
Thanks for your input.

Morning Joe!!!

 Your choice of the Springfield XD is a good one. Its a fine pistol. I agree with Savage stick with main stream calibers like the 45 ACP.

 Everything with a handgun is a tradeoff. You trade good accuracy for adaquite. You trade excellent consealabailty for harder to shoot smaller firearms. You trade good defensive calibers in full framed guns for tiny mouse guns in sub standard defensive calibers, on the assumption you will likely never need it.
 
 Something I haven't seen mentioned and one that I feel is more important than what you pick is that you learn to shoot it. You get this from shooting it allot, learn all the ins and outs and you will become proficient with it. 100% relyability is far more important then X or Y manufacturer. (As long as your considering a quality firearm to begin with, and you are.)
 If you want training you know how to get ahold of me. I think I have a gun or three we can shoot.

CW

[ButlerFord45]

You start with the largest platform that you WILL carry/keep with you 24/7/365.  Through your own trials you find the carry method that will assure that you do have your chosen platform with you 24/7/365. Then in that platform, you use the largest calibre that you can shoot accurately repeatedly quickly. Then you find the method that you will carry extra ammo.  Not 1 round more or you'll end up not carrying at all.   Personal opinion, however unfortunate, someone else's experiences don't mean doodly squat.

[SHOOTALL]

one thing alot of people over look is the ablity of love ones to use your weapon . if you own several and are at home when trouble happens then the problem is not big . BUT if say you and a member of your family are out and about then the choice of weapon could be important . Say you are injured and who ever is with you must pick up the fight , better they also can use your weapon with regard to manual of arms, fit and ablity to hit what they aim at . As example my wife has a hard time with autos ( racking the slide ) . Needless to say i carry a revolver in no small part because she is with me alot .

[45-70.gov]

You start with the largest platform that you WILL carry/keep with you 24/7/365.  Through your own trials you find the carry method that will assure that you do have your chosen platform with you 24/7/365. Then in that platform, you use the largest calibre that you can shoot accurately repeatedly quickly. Then you find the method that you will carry extra ammo.  Not 1 round more or you'll end up not carrying at all.   Personal opinion, however unfortunate, someone else's experiences don't mean doodly squat.

that  is  357  for  me   stainless  20 oz

i  had to  convince  my kids   not  to go  below 38   in  aluminum  14 oz
and  they are afraid  they my not  carry it  because it may prove too big

all  5  shooters     usually  no spare ammo...but  ocasionally  a 6 round  inline strip ... if  out  of town

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

one thing alot of people over look is the ablity of love ones to use your weapon . if you own several and are at home when trouble happens then the problem is not big . BUT if say you and a member of your family are out and about then the choice of weapon could be important . Say you are injured and who ever is with you must pick up the fight , better they also can use your weapon with regard to manual of arms, fit and ablity to hit what they aim at . As example my wife has a hard time with autos ( racking the slide ) . Needless to say i carry a revolver in no small part because she is with me alot .

all  my loved ones have their own  gun.....they  can't  handle  a  357 j frame smith

but  that is a very valid  point

centinial  is dummy/panic proof

[SHOOTALL]

good choice , i have been trying a 340PD , i did change the factory grips to wood S.S. grips as the rubber sticks in the pocket to much for me.

[45-70.gov]

i  changed  mine to soft rubber crimson trace......stays in the pocket better

the laser grip  i  use  more as  a trainer...pointing  and triger control....than  actually shooting

but  they  do shoot  good and accurate  too.......and  the intimadation factor  i  haven't tried  YET



HOW  DO  YOU DO  WITH  357 IN  THAT  LIGHT  GUN??
i  haven't tried  one  yet....i  heard  they  kick  more  than  the  500S&W