Patton: excellent movie

[Questor]

OK, I'm way behind the times with movies, but I finally saw Patton last weekend. Great great movie. Excellent story, excellent acting, excellent movie making. Highly recommended. Made about 1970.

[Oldshooter]

Yes...........your a little behind on that one pard. My favorite line from that movie was " yea our blood his guts"  Refering to Patton being called "ole blood and guts"

[LONGTOM]

Saw it when I was about 12.

I kind of liked his comment about the grips on his sidearm!


LONGTOM

[Skunk]

I have seen it many times. Great movie. The tank battles were awesome.

Edit - Changed a pesky little grammatical error: "saw" to "have seen"

[Questor]

I'd like to see it again.

I have read books about him, and he was not as portrayed in the movie. But in all cases, he is a legend. In reality he was one of the greatest battle generals of all time. We are lucky to have had him on our side. I wish he had lived longer. He probably would have been in Korea in some capacity. A great man indeed.

[Cement Man]

I also thought it was an excellent movie.  I thought the portrayal of Patton was pretty fair-handed, and as far as I know, pretty accurate.  My Dad spent 54 months in the infantry 4/41 to 10/45,  2 1/2 years in the ETO.  He saw Patton (the man, not the movie) a few times, had no use for him.  Slapping the soldier was one reason.  As I recall (Dad died in 1987) he wouldn't even watch the movie.  




I visited the US Military cemetery in Luxembourg City in 2004.  Got there after the cemetery closed for the day and the gate was locked.  The Supt. was an American - retired military (I believe) and saw me peering through the bars on the gate.  He came out and asked me what I wanted.  I told him I was an American veteran and...... nothing more needed to be said.  "You are Americans - I'll keep this place open as long as you want."  He let us in and my wife and I wandered around for more than an hour.  The supt. opened the chapel for us and any other areas that we wanted to see.  I've traced my Dad's route from Normandy to Germany and the cemeteries put a spell of humility, respect, and honor on a person.

I still cannot digest how the current occupant of the White House talked about our country while he was on European soil last week.

Here is a picture of Patton's grave that I took that day.

[Oldshooter]

Good post Cement Man! No Patton did not win friends when he slapped the soldier, but I always thought that was overplayed by the press and he was misunderstood due to the fact that he wanted to show his respect for the wounded that did not claim "battle fatigue" just fought on!  The slapping incident actually came from two incidents where he slapped soldiers who claimed "battle fatigue". An old man once told me that they all had battle fatigue!

 Private Charles H. Kuhl, resting on a box of supplies. Patton asked him what his problem was. 'I guess I just can't take it,' the soldier replied. Enraged, Patton slapped the enlisted man's face with his gloves, and angrily ordered him back into combat at once. Army medic's later found the soldier was suffering from dysentery and malaria.

A week later, on August 10th, Patton confronted another American soldier, Private Paul G. Bennett, at the 93rd Evacuation Hospital and asked him the same question. 'It's my nerves. I can't stand the shelling anymore,' the soldier said. Once again, Patton lost his temper. He slapped the man several times, cursed at him, called him a coward and reached for his ivory-handled revolvers.

Another great line from that movie was when Patton stumbled over the the GI sleeping in the hallway and asked what he was doing there. The GI says "trying to get some sleep". Patton says "well get back down there, you're the only SOB in this outfit that knows what he is doing!"


We all owe a debt(understatement) to those that fought then as we do those that still are !

[Cement Man]

Oldshooter,
I agree with you.  It's also a good case for seeing how things are viewed from different perspectives. (soldier - commander - historian, etc.) My Dad did not talk about "the war" much.  He was in the 28th Inf. Div.  After fighting their way across France, in Nov. '44 the 28th ended up in the Huertgen Forest - arguably the worst combat "meat grinder" in history.  The division was destroyed in a short time and put into Luxembourg to rebuild. On Dec 16 they, with other divisions, took the brunt of the "Bulge" for several days, slowing the advance enough so that there would BE a Bastogne for the 101st to defend, and for Patton to come to the rescue.  Long story short, after being in indescribable physical misery and watching your friends die horrendously while you are led to the edge of death a hundred times a day for weeks and months, it is easy to see how a GI wouldn't like to hear about Patton slapping someone.  My Dad had tremendous respect for Omar Bradley, "the GI's general" and General Norman Cota.  Patton - no.
I do believe that Patton was a brilliant general, egocentric and eccentric to the max, and blustery as hell. But he did get the job done for sure.

[SHOOTALL]

Saw the movie , worked with several that served under him . from what i have gathered not many liked him but most all respected him . Guess respect is the most a man who commands men to their death can hope for .
As for the slap , had the men snaped out of there condition he would have been praised . He made a bad decision but at least he was not afraid to make one  or many .

[Questor]

CementMan:

Not to cause an argument, but my reading of history is that Patton was one of the top battle generals of all time, and Ike recognized it. Historically they are paired like Washington and Arnold, with Washington and Eisenhower being the brilliant strategic and political generals, and Arnold and Patton the most brilliant battle generals. In both the Revolutionary and World War contexts, historical ironic parallels continue:

1) Both Arnold and Patton were recognized by their enemies as the most talented and capable generals they were fighting.

2) Both Arnold and Patton have been defamed, much more so for Benedict Arnold, to the degree that there is a monument to his skill without any mention of his name. Patton, I think it is fair to say, is remembered in living memory as brusque. But living memory of him is going away, and we are only left with the history of his accomplishments, which is a much more flattering way of seeing him.

3) Both Arnold and Patton died shortly after accomplishing their greatest feats in battle. These feats were very important to the wars they fought.

I think it would be interesting to find a historical book or paper that compares and contrasts Patton and Arnold. I see a lot of similarities.

[Oldshooter]

Read this somewhere;  Before the war, the tanks in his command were decrepit broken down and basically were inoperable, he could get no help from the pentagon (due to the fact that there were Democrats running the government then too.(my opinion)). Any way he took every penny of his money he could scrape up and went to town and bought parts and supplys and rebuilt his command into a fighting force.

[Cement Man]

Questor,
I'm not understanding what you are referring to when you say "not to cause an argument".  My last sentence is

"I do believe that Patton was a brilliant general, egocentric and eccentric to the max, and blustery as hell. But he did get the job done for sure."

He was a top battle general.  No argument from me.  I respect him for being so.  That doesn't conflict with the fact that he was egocentric, eccentric, and blustery.  Some of those aspects of his personality (in my opinion) contributed to his effectiveness as a battle commander.

That's why I liked the movie - because I thought those issues were fairly depicted.  

I also state that people view figures like Patton from different perspectives.  Take a GI, for example, that has been standing in cold water in a foxhole under artillery "tree bursts" for weeks with nowhere to hide from overhead shrapnel, watching his friends being vaporized, or torn to shreds, shivering, sleeping standing up between dead bodies, crapping, peeing, in your helmet, hungry, and sick.  When a GI hears a story of a general with custom-designed uniforms, ivory-gripped revolvers, a valet, and real chow - slapping a GI, even if you don't hear or know the whole story, you can understand their reaction.  It's a different perspective.  Combat fatigue, PTSD, whatever we call it, is a very real result of war, all wars.

When my Dad died in 1987, I called one of the four surviving members of his original company that had made it through the war. (Not many, huh?)  This man was one of my heroes in life, and I asked him to be a pall bearer for my Dad.  He had fought in the Huertgen Forest and the Bulge also.  He all but "lost it" in the Huertgen Forest.  I heard the story first hand. He went on to fight heroically in the Bulge, also.  To ever slap this man would be a sin and a travesty.  (See "When Trumpets Fade" for a taste of that battle, that chewed up a few divisions, one after another.)

I am not arguing at all - particularly about Patton's effectiveness or brilliance as a battle commander.  Only pointing out the perspectives of others who "were there" and endured more.

[SHOOTALL]

oldshooter , his family was rich . what happened if the story is true is war games were going on and he had to get his tanks to FL. to win . he shipped them by rail at his expence and won . Win at all cost kind of guy . Wouldn't want less in a fight to the end would one ?

[Questor]

CementMan:

All I can say about the soldiers who were there is that they endured more than anyone should ever have to endure and I really respect them all.

I had the privilege of seeing the new WWII memorial in Washington a few years ago. Very nice. Long overdue.

[Cement Man]

It is a great memorial.  I really grieve the loss of that generation.  We are losing so many now.

[rockbilly]

Patton is buried at Luxembourg American Cemetery and Memorial in Hamm, Luxembourg.  Hamm Cemetary is a fifty acre plot located on a beautiful hillside which is circled by large trees.  At the top of the hill stands a Memorial to Patton that has a “Life Sized” statue of him (about 9 feet tall) according to the local folks.

While stationed at Bitburg AB, Germany I was given the additional duty as NCOIC of the Honor Guard.  In 1973 we assisted in conduction a Memorial Day Ceremonies at Hamm Cemetery.  The locals rolled out the red carpet for us, we had dinner with the Mayor and several members of the community, they all loved Patton and thought highly of Americans.

When we arrived at the cemetery for the service, we were met by a group who told us they wanted a local Boy Scout to play Taps.  The young man was not sure he could do it without a mistake so to solve the problem I placed my bugler at the edge of the woods on the down hill side of the cemetery, the Scout was at the top near the Patton Memorial.  When he started blowing my bugler also started with an echo effect, it had a very chilling effect, there were few dry eyes in the audience.  

I studied Patton rather extensively; he was quite the military commander, hung up on himself, a little bit on the fanatical side, but effective in accomplishing the mission.

Following is a link to Hamm Cemetery.

http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries/lx.php

[Oldshooter]

oldshooter , his family was rich . what happened if the story is true is war games were going on and he had to get his tanks to FL. to win . he shipped them by rail at his expence and won . Win at all cost kind of guy . Wouldn't want less in a fight to the end would one ?

That very well may be true! Been trying to remember(not easy these days) where I read/ heard that story, It may have been a Paul Harvey, Rest of the Story, but I'm not sure now, but I will investigate further!

This is way more fun than Politics!  I think we all agree to a point with different perspectives but that is the flaw in the written word here. These screens we look into do not reflect facial expressions of the speaker and cannot portray the inflection of the voice or the attitude. They also do not show the personality of the speakers as they may be in reality, so we as amateurs have trouble sometime expressing what we mean so that we do not make controversy where there really is none! I enjoy the discussions here and appreciate the diversity of perspectives.  I wish sometime we could all sit around a pot bellied stove and  really have a good knock down drag out of a discussion!  

Man when I see all those white crosses I have trouble holding my composure,............ in fact I rarely can!

[Questor]

CementMan:

Don't get mad at me, I'm just giving my perceptions here.

My view of the slapped soldier is colored by this: In Viet Nam herion addiction etc. by GIs was highly publicized. When I've talked to guys who were there, for example my friend the former helicopter waist gunner, and a couple of brothers in law who were both wounded (one lost a leg). Their comment on the addicts was that they were all just losers who were perceived as crybabys.

My reaction to the slapping incident uses this as a filter. Personally, I see nothing wrong with a general slapping an infantryman who he perceives as weak. Not that it's always right, but tend to support it. A general who does that usually has had to endure quite a bit of hazing himself.  There are many incidents in history where the general killed soldiers personally or through execution. Right or wrong, I can see why it happens.

I would be pretty p'ed off if I had endured so much and then been slapped or derided, but from experience I also know that I would let it bother me for about 15 minutes, then get on with life. It seems inconceivable to me that the kind of survivor it takes to make it through battles like that would let it bug them.

I guess I better shut up now, because surely you think I'm being malevolent or taunting or disrespectful, but I'm really not. I'm just bull headed enough to see things this way.

[Ruskin]

My cousin was with Patton.  He made a remark to me about the German soldiers he was guarding and how Patton wanted to equip them to go into Russia.

This takes me to the meal scene when Patton shows dislike for the Russians.  He wanted to finish the war by going into Russia.

Strange events about his death, and he never got to go into Russia.  What would the following years have been if we had fought Russia.

[Oldshooter]

Yep he had the army there and wanted to go on, It probably was a mistake not to let him. Now I am not a conspiracy theorist, but if and that is a big IF he was murdered that may have been why!

[Skunk]

This particular topic/thread has gone from a good review about the movie to a fantastic discussion about the man. Many diverse perspectives and opinions. Excellent, enjoyable, thread indeed! Keep the great conversation going.

[SHOOTALL]

yes it is nice to offer views and not be slaped with 40 Bible verses on other subjects or 50 political reasons its not right

[Questor]

There is so much to be learned and remembered from this war. It troubles me that so many people are minimizing the importance of it today. Even Germans are forgetting the evil of the Nazis and Japanese. Many have already forgotten.

My grandfather was in the Luftwaffe, and was a Nazi. When I was a kid in Germany they told me how everybody was enfatuated with Hitler. Afterward there was intense national shame. It is good to have such a close connection to this war because I shall never forget the people who fought to free the world of the tyrants.

I remember the rubble from the bombings.  The children were not allowed to play on it. I also remember that seemingly every adult was an amputee, at least a finger gone.

[rex6666]

From all i have read, you have a man that started fighting in the Spanish/American
war and thought that was all he was meant to do. I think that was the reason
for his demeanor, he thought that war was his life, he was a professional warrior.
don't think he stopped to think about much else, he could not understand
that some would break down mentally while the people he looked at as heroes
(American fighting men) where fighting and dieing. I don't think he looked past winning
at all cost, possible he thought everyone should feel the same. Even in sports
we do not all see it as a game. He was a great Warrior, maybe lacking in other
aspects of life. What does a warrior look for when a war is over?
maybe some felt that he would start a war with Russia if some thing was not done.
JMH $.02

[Oldshooter]

There is so much to be learned and remembered from this war. It troubles me that so many people are minimizing the importance of it today. Even Germans are forgetting the evil of the Nazis and Japanese. Many have already forgotten.

My grandfather was in the Luftwaffe, and was a Nazi. When I was a kid in Germany they told me how everybody was enfatuated with Hitler. Afterward there was intense national shame. It is good to have such a close connection to this war because I shall never forget the people who fought to free the world of the tyrants.

I remember the rubble from the bombings.  The children were not allowed to play on it. I also remember that seemingly every adult was an amputee, at least a finger gone.

Great post Questor, there was a time when that would not have been something you could have said, or would want to have said in this country! I have no problem with that it all now. You have a rich heritage and can be proud of it!  I only regret So many had to die to stop the evil!

[SHOOTALL]

when you are at the tip of the spear your opinion is often more direct than those standing far behind the shaft of the spear . MacArthur had the same problem . It may have been they saw the job of protecting our freedom not quite finished and the cost of finishing the job way more if it were put off . I don't know who would have been right but it is a very interesting subject with both military and money debates along with human loss involved .

[Questor]

OldShooter:

My parents were immigrants in the classic sense. They were fleeing something bad for something better. We were totally committed to being Americans. We never spoke German at home, and the only reason I ever spoke it in America is that, for a while, it was the only language I knew. There was absolutely no sentimenal attachment to the old country, except that they would sometimes telephone parents, or visit them when parents were dying.

A lot of other European immigrants are like that too. I remember talking to one old Swedish lady who said good riddance to the old country, and said the only thing she remembers of it is being cold and hungry all the time.

This class of immigrants never took this country for granted. On the contrary, they tend to be grateful for the opportunities of the US.

[Questor]

I should also have mentioned that the gratitude tends to be tempered by a distrust of government, because they know what bad government can do to people.

[kinslayer1965]

If this country has ever had a better field commander and strategist I havent heard of him. My favorite quote of Patton's is "a good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week". It seems that Gen. Patton will always be compared to his contemporaries Gen. Bradley and Gen Montgomery. A friend of our families served with Patton across North Africa and was with him when he went into Palermo. He said Patton always seemed bloodier than the other two not because there were actually more casualties but because the time frame was shorter. Bradley and Monty would advance along a given line then back up, advance, back up and eventually reach the original goal. Patton would start forward and not stop untill at a given goal. They lost as many men as Patton it just didn't seem so bloody because their campaigns lasted longer for a given target.

Our friend spoke highly of Bradley as well but said Monty wouldn't march anywhere unless there was a photographer waiting to take pictures of him upon arriving.

I don't believe his death was an accident. He was making to many comments about our brave russian alies to be sure.

Just my .02

CR

[Questor]

What's the story about Montgomery? The things I've read tended to marginalize him. Was he a good commander? He's often portrayed as a goofball.