Author Topic: Patton: excellent movie (Read 1472 times)

Cement Man · « **Reply #30 on:** April 07, 2009, 08:52:22 AM »

Quote from: Questor on April 07, 2009, 05:43:24 AM

CementMan:

Don't get mad at me, I'm just giving my perceptions here.

My view of the slapped soldier is colored by this: In Viet Nam herion addiction etc. by GIs was highly publicized. When I've talked to guys who were there, for example my friend the former helicopter waist gunner, and a couple of brothers in law who were both wounded (one lost a leg). Their comment on the addicts was that they were all just losers who were perceived as crybabys.

My reaction to the slapping incident uses this as a filter. Personally, I see nothing wrong with a general slapping an infantryman who he perceives as weak. Not that it's always right, but tend to support it. A general who does that usually has had to endure quite a bit of hazing himself. There are many incidents in history where the general killed soldiers personally or through execution. Right or wrong, I can see why it happens.

I would be pretty p'ed off if I had endured so much and then been slapped or derided, but from experience I also know that I would let it bother me for about 15 minutes, then get on with life. It seems inconceivable to me that the kind of survivor it takes to make it through battles like that would let it bug them.

I guess I better shut up now, because surely you think I'm being malevolent or taunting or disrespectful, but I'm really not. I'm just bull headed enough to see things this way.

I don't feel any disagreement at all Questor. This is a good discussion. Just some other points worthy of consideration..... Eisenhower had a real political and leadership challenge being the Supreme Commander in Europe. He had to balance things among the allies and amongst the various US commands that reported to him. He had decision-making balls too. (He approved the execution of Private Slovik, for example.). Yet, even though he knew Patton to be one of his greatest field generals, he ordered him to apologize to that soldier.

Makes me wonder if a WWII forum would get a lot of discussion, although this is an outdoors site, not otherwise.

Regarding Montgomery in one one of your later posts - I think Montgomery was far more tentative and conservative in the field, was somewhat of a political nuisance, and loved publicity. I'm sure many Brits would disagree. Here again - perspective.

Here is the locked gate at the cemetery... I thought it was all I would get to see until the supt. came out.

My wife and sister-in-law at the cemetery.

Fuller view of the crosses. Patton is buried up front - at the "head". The chapel is the tall building.

I've been to several military cemeteries, a few like this one with my Dad's buddies and our relatives in them. It is hard to keep a dry eye or describe the feelings. Then last week, our president goes to Europe and refers to Americans as "arrogant". Some Americans are arrogant - but that kind of talk need not be brought to the soil that has soaked up so much American blood.

Questor · « **Reply #31 on:** April 07, 2009, 09:41:11 AM »

Quote
Then last week, our president goes to Europe and refers to Americans as "arrogant".
End Quote

Never has it been more clear that a president is not necessarily a leader. Can you imagine going into any engagement, a battle...a sales call... or anything, with a commander that talks incessantly about catastrophe, crisis, and self criticism? Honestly! The scary thing here is that there is so much truth to the saying that people elect the politicians they deserve. What have we done?

Questor · « **Reply #32 on:** April 07, 2009, 09:44:16 AM »

One of the most memorable things I ever read about these great generals had to do with the social climate they grew up in. The likes of Eisenhower and Bradley were young men during the 1920s when there was a lot of opportunity for bright young men. People thought they were crazy to be in the military. But they did it anyway, and it's a good thing for all of us that they did.

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #33 on:** April 07, 2009, 10:11:21 AM »

Don't know if this is true or not, but when Patton was stationed at Ft. Benning, Georgia before the war, some under his command went to Phenix City, Alabama to some bar. They got arrested and put in Phenix City jail. The kept them all weekend, and when they didn't show up on Monday morning, Patton found out. He drove a tank through Columbus, Georgia, crossed the river bridge into Phenix City and parked in front of the jail. He told the police chief if he didn't let his soldiers go, he was going to blow down the jail. They let them go.

Another story was at Ft. Benning he was being driven in his staff car, and saw a lieutenant and sargent talking. He stopped the car, got out and proceeded to yell at the lieutenant for not saluting him. The sargent jumped to attention and saluted. Patton then told the sargent not to worry his back was turned to him and he didn't see him, but the lieutenant was facing the street and saw him pass and didn't salute.

gypsyman · « **Reply #34 on:** April 07, 2009, 10:26:24 AM »

I've seen the movie several times. Really liked it. It's funny thou, the one thing that sticks out in my mind about this movie, isn't the movie. It's the actor that played Patton. George C.Scott. Who I think was a very good actor. But he refused the Acadamy Award for this part, because he said, he didn't believe in war. If he felt that strongly about war, why did he take the part. I can't remember if this part is true, but I think he donated all his money to the Indians,or maybe that was Marlon Brando. gypsyman

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #35 on:** April 07, 2009, 10:32:17 AM »

some refuse to profit from war . if that is true on his part he is a great man .

kinslayer1965 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 07, 2009, 10:36:55 AM »

One of the lesser known things about Patton was the fact that he was a prolific poet. My favorite is "The Moon and the Dead" which he wrote in 1943.

The road of the battle languished,
The hate from the guns was still,
While the moon rose up from a smoke cloud,
And looked at the dead on the hill.

Pale was her face with anguish,
Wet were her eyes with tears,
As she gazed on the twisted corpses,
Cut off in their earliest years.

Some were bit by bullet,
Some were kissed by steel,
Some were crushed by cannon,
But all were still, how still!

The smoke wreaths hung in the hollows,
The blood stink rose in the air,
And the moon looked down in pity,
At teh poor dead lying there.

Light of their childhood's wonder,
Moon of their puppy love,
Goal of their first ambition,
She watched them from above.

Yet not with regret she mourned them,
Fair slain on teh field of strife,
Fools only lament the hero,
Who gives his faith for life.

She sighed for the lives extinguished,
She wept for the loves that grieve,
But she glowed with pride on seeing,
That manhood still doth live.

The moon sailed on contented.
Above the heaps of slain,
For she saw that manhood liveth,
And honor breathes agian. The end.

Sorry you guys just happen to start a thread about someone whom I have a great respect and have studied quite a bit. You will be in real trouble is you start a thread about Ronald Reagan.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #37 on:** April 07, 2009, 10:38:45 AM »

he also placed a Civial War cannon in the bell tower in college . at the top !

Questor · « **Reply #38 on:** April 07, 2009, 10:46:05 AM »

I can understand why George C. Scott, the actor, would refuse the award at that time. It was the peak of anti-Viet Nam War sentiment, and he probably used that gesture to further his standing in Hollywood circles.

If he really didn't like wars, he should have refused the Patton job and also the other jobs in which he portrayed a soldier, such as in Dr. Stragelove. Same phenomenon as the new James Bond actor who is anti-gun, but makes his living with faux weapons and violence. It's a bit of a disease.

Questor · « **Reply #39 on:** April 07, 2009, 10:47:43 AM »

About the poetry, it's probably a soldier's pasttime. A lot of people do math problems as a hobby. They have a lot of time during travel and between assignments.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #40 on:** April 07, 2009, 10:48:04 AM »

money talks !

gstewart44 · « **Reply #41 on:** April 07, 2009, 11:07:16 AM »

From what I remember Scott gave the Oscars back for "The Hustler" (1961) and "Patton" stating that the Academy Awards were nothing but a dog and pony show/meat parade. He disliked the Hollywood BS and glamor show that got away from his true love of stage acting.

Marlon Brando rejected his Oscar and had a native American take the stage and announce the rejection on behalf of all the Native Americans who were slaughtered by the American Army over the years.

Cement Man · « **Reply #42 on:** April 07, 2009, 11:34:42 AM »

That was my recollection about George C. Scott refusing the Oscar - it was his beef with the Hollywood bunch. (My memory is fallible, however.)

GH1 · « **Reply #43 on:** April 07, 2009, 11:59:30 AM »

According to Wikkipedia, Scott declined his Oscar nomination for "The Hustler" and returned his Oscar for "Patton".
In a letter to the Academy he stated that he didn't feel himself to be in competition with other actors. He was also quoted elsewhere as saying " This whole Goddamned thing is a meat parade. I don't want any part of it."
So if Wikkipedia is to be believed, it seems Mr Scott had a problem with all the schmoozing and politicing of Hollywood and nothing more. I think Patton would've appreciated that.
GH1

gypsyman · « **Reply #44 on:** April 07, 2009, 12:53:44 PM »

I stand corrected. If that is the case, my opinion of him went up several notch's. And I truely don't blame him. There are several actors in today's batch that are like that, and the vast majority could take a lesson from him. gypsyman

Cement Man · « **Reply #45 on:** April 07, 2009, 01:04:51 PM »

Yet not with regret she mourned them,
Fair slain on teh field of strife,
Fools only lament the hero,
Who gives his faith for life.

She sighed for the lives extinguished,
She wept for the loves that grieve,
But she glowed with pride on seeing,
That manhood still doth live.

The moon sailed on contented.
Above the heaps of slain,
For she saw that manhood liveth,
And honor breathes agian. The end.

I was not aware of Patton's poetic side. These verses certainly support the Patton persona as we know it, celebrating death in battle. "War poetry" is extremely interesting. I took some literature courses on the GI bill when I got out of the service and we studied "war poets". Most of them paint a picture of anguish, death, and futility of it all. Wilfred Owen was a WWI poet - in one of most famous poems he talks about dying from poison gas on the battlefield - quite a difference.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori. *

(*It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country.)

Aught Six · « **Reply #46 on:** April 07, 2009, 01:59:55 PM »

Cement Man - Great posts and great pics. Thanks for posting, and most of all, thanks for visiting and showing respect to these brave, wonderful Americans at rest in the cemetary. The United States Army in WWII quite simply saved the world.

Like you, I get choked up at military cemetaries. It is truly humbling to think of the sacrifice of the men interred there, and the sacrifice of their families.

Along these lines, who besides me finds it absolutely impossible to keep a dry eye in the last scene of Saving Private Ryan?

Cement Man · « **Reply #47 on:** April 07, 2009, 02:55:46 PM »

Aught Six,
I have a hard time keeping my eyes dry at the end. I have been to that cemetery as well. My Dad landed on Omaha about a month after D-Day in July. They didn't have to go too far to get into combat. They liberated Paris in late August.

Cemetery on Omaha Beach and flag pole from "Saving Private Ryan"

Cemetery at Omaha Beach - the water is tranquil and so blue.

A Frenchman exercising his horse on Omaha Beach that was red with blood 60 years before. I don't know why this scene seems so surreal to me.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #48 on:** April 07, 2009, 03:43:50 PM »

Great pics Cement Man, Thanks, I always wanted to see Normandy, and Germany but gave up flying after 9/11. May not ever make it now, but still would like to, who knows.

Skunk · « **Reply #49 on:** April 07, 2009, 04:01:28 PM »

Quote from: Cement Man on April 07, 2009, 02:55:46 PM

A Frenchman exercising his horse on Omaha Beach that was red with blood 60 years before.

That is so true. I wasn't at Omaha Beach during the landings of course, but I've seen many documentaries with real film footage that clearly depicts the the blood red tainted beach. The dead bodies of soldiers lined the beach as other dead bodies bobbed up and down in the blood red colored waves that crashed upon the shoreline. It was humbling just watch it. Just think of how the surviving soldiers must have felt to be there in person watching it take place. Our Vets truly are brave heroes.